The Cancellation of Jim Cornette

[El-P]

That's even worse, actually, because it means she's really fucking terrible at pro-wrestling then.

[sek69]

I got the feeling they were about to finally give up on her before she got a groundswell of support after her boyfriend died suddenly. They obviously saw it as another "the brands will win with PR" opportunity since she's been in tons of magazines since then giving motivational type interviews. Which...cool. She seems more suited for doing fitness competitions and lifestyle blog type stuff rather than professional wrestling. 

[sek69]

Also it really is extra scummy that WWE seems to get away with appearing to pressure women to get cosmetic surgery,  if it ends up not ending well the woman gets all the abuse for it and feels the need to accept responsibility for having it done rather than the company who clearly expects women to look a certain way.

[The Thread Killer]

16 hours ago, C.S. said:

Glad to see even Jim Cornette's most sycophantic followers on this board are no longer excusing his toxic bullshit because he once managed their favorite rasslers.

I hope this comment isn't directed at me, for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, the definition of sycophant is one who somebody who attempts to gain an advantage or curry favor by flattering an influential person, or by praising a person in a position of authority. Since Jim Cornette has no idea who I am, nor does he have any authority or influence in my life and could not possibly confer any favor upon me, I am obviously not a sycophant.  I have referred to Cornette's so-called "Cult of Cornette" on Twitter as sycophants, because many of them fall all over themselves complimenting him and tagging him, clearly hoping for a response and his attention and approval. I have never done that, and I never would. I think it's sad and pathetic. I couldn't care less what Jim Cornette would think of me.  I'd say that conservatively, I agree with Jim Cornette about 75% of the time.  Having said that, I find a number of his opinions to be illogical, simplistic and outdated.  His opinions on Becky Lynch's pregnancy are the latest example.  There have been other ideas of his that I have strongly disagreed with in the past, and I'm very sure there will be many more in the future.

However, I am still a Jim Cornette fan.  I would go so far as to consider myself a Jim Cornette apologist.  I am not one of those people who, upon being presented with a viewpoint they disagree with from a particular individual, has to therefore automatically discount or invalidate every other opinion that individual has.  People are complex. It's possible to agree with a person's opinion on one particular issue, and strongly disagree with them about another.  I myself don't consider myself a Jim Cornette fan because I loved the Midnight Express.  I am a fan because I happen to agree with a large number of Jim Cornette's opinions about Professional Wrestling. I also find him entertaining and funny. 

I also do not consider Jim Cornette "toxic."  I'm not even sure what that term really means, when it is used to describe a person.  I'm reasonably certain you can't die of poisoning from listening to Jim Cornette's podcast. I know the term "toxic" has risen in popularity in the past few years, seemingly in conjunction with so-called "cancel culture."  I find that entire line of thinking to be putrid.  Unless an individual is openly espousing or promoting violence or discrimination against a disadvantaged individual or group and can bring somebody to harm, I don't believe in the practice of attempting to silence them, just because you disagree.  I've said it countless times, but it bears repeating.  I am strongly hold to the "sticks and stones" philosophy.  Opinions cannot harm me.  Hurt feelings are not a reason to attempt to silence somebody.  There are a great deal of people who have a public platform, with whom I disagree.  If I find that I disagree with so many of their opinions that I don't even enjoy listening to them talk anymore, then I stop listening to them talk.

The bottom line is, Jim Cornette's comments about Becky Lynch might have been antiquated and bordered on misogyny, but by gawd...he's right about Kenny Omega.

[The Thread Killer]

6 hours ago, Loss said:

Cornette's comments were out of line there. Way out of line. That said, Dana Brooke has never struck me as very smart. That doesn't mean she deserves to have her looks made fun of in public. Her tweet in response just sort of highlights her basic incompetence at pretty much everything, which is a separate issue. When she was the statistician for the Prime Time Players, she couldn't even pantomime typing.

I agree.  I have no issue with Jim Cornette taking shots at people's lack of ability when it comes to Professional Wrestling.  In fact, that's one of things that he does that I find entertaining.  However, I don't see the need to take shots at a person's physical appearance.  It's not productive, it's just mean spirited. Much like Cornette, the last time I saw Dana Brooke my first reaction was one of total surprise, as in "what the hell happened to her?"  I used to find Dana Brooke quite attractive.  I don't know why she felt the need to do that herself.  I find it really sad that women in Pro Wrestling, the entertainment business, and in society at large feel the need to mutilate themselves to make themselves into what they consider (or what they think others consider) more "attractive."  But she seemed determined to do it, for whatever reason.  And when Cornette did make that mean spirited joke, she probably just should have ignored him or let somebody who is a bit more quick witted come to her defense.

On his podcast, Cornette has gone to great lengths to eviscerate WWE and AEW for things they do...but he always does it with the caveat of "they shouldn't do that for this reason" or "they should have done this instead, it makes more sense."  This past week, he complained that Jake Roberts is cutting promos as Lance Archer's manager that are doing a better job of getting heat on himself, and getting himself over than they are helping Lance Archer.  He talked about his time managing Yokozuna, and the art of cutting a promo for a monster that gets them over. Little things like insisting that the camera focus on the talent during the promo, not the manager, so there is no confusion who is supposed to be getting over. He then cut a promo off the top of his head, that he says he would have done to promote Lance Archer in his feud against Cody.  And of course, it was pretty much better than any promo I've heard by anybody recently.  But that was the point...although it was venomous, it was still constructive.  There was a point to it. 

Picking on somebody like Dana Brooke is just pointless. There's no reason for it.

[Coffey]

Even just semi-recently, I remember a lot of people in wrestling on Twitter going off on Peyton Royce when she got new breasts. I also seem to recall that it was a misunderstanding in some way but I don't remember the details.

 

EDIT: Correction, going off on Dave Meltzer over something he said about Peyton after she got surgery.

[sek69]

1 minute ago, Coffey said:

Even just semi-recently, I remember a lot of people in wrestling on Twitter going off on Peyton Royce when she got new breasts. I also seem to recall that it was a misunderstanding in some way but I don't remember the details.

Dave mentioned that it seemed to throw off her timing after she had it done, and that caused the usual suspects going off  calling him misogynist. Even Peyton herself joined in based on what people were claiming Dave said rather than what he actually said. 

[cactus]

As a weekly listener of both the Experience and the Drive-Thru, Cornette's comments on Dana Brooke, while mean-spirited, aren't as bad as some of his other comments he's made on the subject of women's wrestling. He's constantly been condescending towards female wrestlers ("she works like a guy" etc) and sees them as a mere gimmick. Don't even get me started on the racist crap he says about Riho.

[El-P]

Yeah, I really feel sometimes, the few bullshit that gets some buzz is actually the tree that hides the forest, sadly.

1 hour ago, The Thread Killer said:

he's right about Kenny Omega.

What parts ? The part where he talks about Kenny killing the business for working against a 9 year old girl in DDT years ago or the parts where he makes half-covered homophobic remarks about him ? Or maybe the part where he says Kenny is a geek and not a star when, hey wait, he's one half of the match that basically jumpstarted this whole AEW thingy and before the shutdown was one of its most over act (despite the naysayers who live in denial), and is actually living on a fat-ass contract as a talent and top-ranked official of the N°3 pro-wrestling company in the world. Yeah that guy will never amount to anything. (I won't even go into match quality since it's the most "subjective" element, but these people in the crowd in Japan who probably don't know who the fuck Dave Meltzer is kinda went crazy for his stuff for years)

As far as Cornette being toxic in 2020, I totally agree, because he carries with him a crowd of sycophants and haters who just parrot whatever he says. For instance the fact that NWA Powerr shared quite a bit of its viewer with the AEW Dark audience on Youtube should be enough to realize Corny consistently shitting on AEW and its fans was a very bad things for the NWA. 

[C.S.]

1 hour ago, The Thread Killer said:

I hope this comment isn't directed at me, for a couple of reasons. 

It isn't - unless you were the guy who thought I was very young because I was rigid in my views about Corny's bullshit, and he's seen that kind of inflexible attitude in a lot of younger people (which I actually get in a way, because my niece is like that - not about Corny, but she wouldn't approve if she knew of him, lol). I'm paraphrasing, but that's the basic gist of what that poster said. I'd name and tag the poster I'm thinking of, but I honestly can't remember who it was. 

Just to update this: I'm sure he has very good points about wrestling - they remain no less valid now than they ever did - but what he said about Becky and Dana is obviously very different than what you mention here:

1 hour ago, The Thread Killer said:

This past week, he complained that Jake Roberts is cutting promos as Lance Archer's manager that are doing a better job of getting heat on himself, and getting himself over than they are helping Lance Archer.  He talked about his time managing Yokozuna, and the art of cutting a promo for a monster that gets them over. Little things like insisting that the camera focus on the talent during the promo, not the manager, so there is no confusion who is supposed to be getting over. He then cut a promo off the top of his head, that he says he would have done to promote Lance Archer in his feud against Cody.  And of course, it was pretty much better than any promo I've heard by anybody recently.  But that was the point...although it was venomous, it was still constructive.  There was a point to it.  

He's 100% right about the Jake/Archer dynamic. I've thought the same thing for weeks.

[The Thread Killer]

4 hours ago, El-P said:

What parts ? The part where he talks about Kenny killing the business for working against a 9 year old girl in DDT years ago

Yes, those parts.  And don't forget the blow-up doll.

4 hours ago, El-P said:

or the parts where he makes half-covered homophobic remarks about him ?

Jim Cornette did not make any half-covered homophobic remarks about Kenny Omega.  I never even knew there was a rumor about Kenny Omega being gay or bisexual until I read this thread.  Cornette has said Kenny Omega prances around the ring like a sissy.  You know where this insult originated?  The fact that Kenny Omega is featured in an independent short film about Professional Wrestling called "Sissy Boy Slap Party." And also from the fact that he prances and dances around the ring like a modern interpretive dancer. Jim Cornette has never accused Kenny Omega of being gay, he has accused Omega of having an unhealthy fascination with female Japanese wrestlers.

4 hours ago, El-P said:

Or maybe the part where he says Kenny is a geek and not a star

Cornette never said Omega is not a star.  Quite the opposite.  He thinks Omega and The Young Bucks are the biggest stars in AEW and that's the problem...that they're playing exclusively to their extremely passionate but also limited fan base, without taking advantage of their national TV exposure to try and draw in new fans and compete with WWE.  He has never denied that Omega is popular.  Nor would I, nor could anybody claim that...because it's not true.  But just because Omega had a brief period of success in Japan and is now one of the Vice Presidents in charge of AEW, that does not make him the best or most popular Professional Wrestler in the world. 

But Omega does have the jazziest hands and does the best "pew pew" finger motions of any active Pro Wrestler I have ever seen. As far as the geek part?  I've never heard Jim Cornette actually call Omega a geek, but if he did...he'd not be wrong.

[Robert S]

8 hours ago, sek69 said:

Dave mentioned that it seemed to throw off her timing after she had it done, and that caused the usual suspects going off  calling him misogynist. Even Peyton herself joined in based on what people were claiming Dave said rather than what he actually said. 

The low-point was Finlay using the term "vermin" w.r.t. Dave. "Vermin" (or rather its translation "Schädling") was one the terms Nazis used about jewish people.

[El-P]

8 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

Jim Cornette did not make any half-covered homophobic remarks about Kenny Omega.

He sure did.

8 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

I never even knew there was a rumor about Kenny Omega being gay or bisexual until I read this thread. 

Actually, no one knows for sure. Nor should anyone care, really.

8 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

Cornette has said Kenny Omega prances around the ring like a sissy.  You know where this insult originated?  The fact that Kenny Omega is featured in an independent short film about Professional Wrestling called "Sissy Boy Slap Party." And also from the fact that he prances and dances around the ring like a modern interpretive dancer.

You realize what "sissy" means, right ? And he said other things too on Twitter by the way, but I couldn't quote that from memory. As far as "prancing around", yeah those fucking V Trigger don't look like it's kill someone for sure. But anyway, this is neither here nor there, Corny did make some very awkward, to say the least, comments in the past.

8 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

Jim Cornette has never accused Kenny Omega of being gay, he has accused Omega of having an unhealthy fascination with female Japanese wrestlers.

First, "accusing" someone of being gay is one awkward way to put it to say the least. There's no accusing someone of being gay.

Second, yeah that stuff about "unhealthy fascinaton with female japanese wrestlers" is another one filthy declaration on Corny's part. Omega has learned from watching joshi puroresu from the 90's because thise girls were some of the best wrestlers in the world. And then he has a fascination for Japan and Japanese culture, like many people of his generation. And then he worked DDT, which has intergender matches. So yeah, he has japanese wrestlers female friends. Maybe dated some, who knows, who cares. There's nothing unhealthy about all of that. As far as booking them strong in AEW, well, these girls have been the best of the bunch, easily. Riho was one of the most over act at first. Again, nothing "unhealthy", whatever that means. But really, we all know what Corny is trying to say by "unhealthy fascination with female Japanese pro-wrestlers", and it's disgusting for Corny to say. 

8 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

But just because Omega had a brief period of success in Japan

He's had one of the best career in Japan a gaijin can hope. Coming up with DDT (which is basically the second biggest company in Japan, really, whatever that means in the 10') and ending main eventing with Okada in some of the most notable matches of the last 15 years in Japan, and anywhere actually. Yeah, he had a cup of coffee...

But this really isn't about Omega. This is about Corny and the awful things he seem to say all the time now.

[El-P]

14 hours ago, C.S. said:

He's 100% right about the Jake/Archer dynamic. I've thought the same thing for weeks.

Well, Meltz and Alvarez have made the same point, really, so it's not like a great revelation or anything from Corny. Whatever good point Corny can makes totally gets invalidated by the complete bullshit he spews all the time.

6 hours ago, Robert S said:

The low-point was Finlay using the term "vermin" w.r.t. Dave. "Vermin" (or rather its translation "Schädling") was one the terms Nazis used about jewish people.

Oh yeah, that whole Peyton Royce thing was a debacle on all front, including in this board, sadly. I'm amazed the IIconics haven't been released by WWE during this time BTW.

[ButchReedMark]

I'm not sure if Finlay would be too up on his Nazi naming history to be honest. We call people vermin all the time over here if you don't like them and think they're a shitty prick. Not an anti semetic thing. 

[MoS]

A friend of mine said about Omega something which perfectly captures my feelings on him: he is a gifted guy who, if booked strongly, can be a huge star and main event guy, but if left to his own devices, would just be doing wacky comedy mid-card stuff with no direction. Gedo booked him perfectly and he became a massive part of modern NJPW's international resurgence. On the other hand, his AEW run has just been underwhelming. Yes, the tag team stuff has been great, but Page is the star of the feud, and it's been Matt Jackson who has been instrumental in pushing the storyline aspect of the feud. Omega is the 4th best guy in that entire story. Yes, he is a star, but he could be so much more. He flat out said on Twitter a while back that he thinks he has had his run and it's time to put others over, which, I dunno, it makes no sense to me. 

Speaking of Cornette's opinions on wrestlers, he is not a fan of Mox's in-ring work apparently, which is a bit surprising to me, because I thought that grinding old-school wrestling style would be something he would like. 

[El-P]

17 minutes ago, MoS said:

He flat out said on Twitter a while back that he thinks he has had his run and it's time to put others over, which, I dunno, it makes no sense to me. 

This is something people don't seem to get about Omega. He's not an old-school guy in that he's not obsessed about being a top guy. He wants to do different things (he said he would love to do more intergender wrestling). Plus, his dream was always Japan. Been there, done that, at the highest level. He is 36, he has other interests in life. He's making huge money now. If he's smart, and he seems like a pretty fucking smart guy, he can probably go on without having to hustle. To me it makes perfect sense. And in a way, it's exactly like Becky Lynch having a baby now, to circle back to the beginning. They don't have an unhealthy obsession with Da Business. Becky is quitting (for now) at her peak because she'd rather have a baby. Omega could push himself to the top, but he'd rather help other guys get over and pass the torch already, because to him he already has reached the top where it mattered the most to him (NJPW). Makes total sense. Now, maybe Becky will come back and maybe Omega will get that last push to the top still sometime (it would be really nice to see a great stint as the Ace of the promotion eventually), but I can totally relate to those people, at least. The Young Bucks strikes me as the same breed. And hell, didn't Cody say he wanted to retire at 40 ?

[Loss]

If you look at what AEW is setting up long-term anyway, I don't think they're building to Omega's time on top so much as they are building to Hangman Page's time on top. Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems like the ultimate destination, perhaps with title runs that serve a specific purpose to get something over for Cody and Omega along the way.

[El-P]

Agreed. From day one, Hangman has been the designated guy to be the one "original" Ace of the promotion. Jericho, Mox, Omega (whenever that happens) are only those who are gonna build the path. One thing about AEW is that they seem to aim for the long term while not being afraid to experiment along the way. A few months ago, both Page and Baker got the "failure" treatments from everywhere. They were failures, uncharismatic, would never get over etc... And then... Of course Page is a great worker whereas Baker is green as hell and doesn't strike me as someone who will turn into a great worker anytime soon if ever, but the point remains. 

But this is a discussion for another topic.

[Loss]

If Britt Baker can get big reactions when there are crowds again, which she seems on track to do, it will disguise a lot of that and give her more time to improve in the ring. Even if she doesn't get to a point where she can have great matches, if she can deliver good ones that have emotionally satisfying payoffs, she'll be fine.

[El-P]

I kinda dread the single match against Statlander (who fucks stuff up all the time it seems, and I like the girl but...) in front of no real crowd though.

[Loss]

If it was me, I'd keep Britt out of the ring as much as possible until there are crowds again because I think it makes her come across as less of a star. She can still get promo and vignette time every week. But since this is indefinite, I guess she has to do at least some matches.

[Robert S]

3 hours ago, ButchReedMark said:

I'm not sure if Finlay would be too up on his Nazi naming history to be honest. We call people vermin all the time over here if you don't like them and think they're a shitty prick. Not an anti semetic thing. 

Possible, but then again, that's exactly how far-right people work: using coded terminology and acting surprised if they get called out (common examples are posting a picture of egg dumplings on April, 20th (Hitler's birthday), using "east coast" instead of "Jews" or walking around wearing cornflowers - all real examples done elected Austrian politicians within the last 10 years).

[The Thread Killer]

3 hours ago, El-P said:

Whatever good point Corny can makes totally gets invalidated by the complete bullshit he spews all the time.

That statement right there clearly sums up our own difference in opinion regarding Jim Cornette.  We both disagree with some of the things he says. Neither of us agreed with what he said about Becky Lynch's pregnancy, or Dana Brooke's face.  I agree with most of his opinions about Kenny Omega, you do not.

The difference is, I don't think the opinions that Jim Cornette has with which I disagree, somehow invalidate the opinions he has that I do agree with.

[El-P]

At this point Cornette is a broken clock to me. Yeah, he can make good points at times. But so does anyone. Even Vince Russo has made good points about pro-wrestling I'm sure. Yeah, that's how low the mighty has fallen to me.