MoS Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 10 hours ago, El-P said: Wait, no, the irony is that I don't give a flying fuck about punk rock nor what was the best year for punk rock 43 years ago or whatever. That's not irony at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 Welcome to any one of his pro-Omega stanning tangents: filled with logical fallacies, strawmen, and presenting opinion as fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 7 hours ago, MoS said: That's not irony at all Yes, kinda, because Laz thought it was sooo ironic that I would use some 43 year old reference (and not a good one either, because 1978 is not even the best year for punk rock and that is apparently a fact and not an opinion, see) to make fun of Cornette being stuck in the past, yet one has nothing to do with the other since I don't care about punk rock so I don't defer to something that was 43 years ago as being inherently better like Cornette does (no, I don't mean specifically 43 years ago). So yeah, maybe it's not "ironic" (well, kinda still), it was just a dumb way to try and point out "irony" where there was really none. Like I say, wanna point out irony about my little joke about pro-wrestling and punk rock, just mention that punk rock was basically a "back to the roots" movement, which in a way, is reactionary (whereas post-punk wasn't). Like Cornette. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 7 hours ago, Laz said: Welcome to any one of his pro-Omega stanning tangents: filled with logical fallacies, strawmen, and presenting opinion as fact. Fuck me, I barely even mentioned Kenny Omega the last three pages of this thread, it was all about Cornette being an old jerk, difference of generations and spots that should be used or not in relations to their character/gimmick (stemming from the Matt Jackson's discussion). So.. hum... really now ? As far as fact goes, his success both in Japan and now the US is not an opinion, his role in the creation of AEW is not an opinion. When Corny say stupid stuff like "Booo Kenny and the Bucks are killing the business, they aren't stars, they will never be successfull, AEW is an outlaw mud show that is not successful", you have nothing else to do but state facts. I know some people are in such denial mode that they'll go to Mars and back to not recognize those simple facts, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 9 hours ago, El-P said: Yes, kinda, because Laz thought it was sooo ironic that I would use some 43 year old reference (and not a good one either, because 1978 is not even the best year for punk rock and that is apparently a fact and not an opinion, see) to make fun of Cornette being stuck in the past, yet one has nothing to do with the other since I don't care about punk rock so I don't defer to something that was 43 years ago as being inherently better like Cornette does (no, I don't mean specifically 43 years ago). So yeah, maybe it's not "ironic" (well, kinda still), it was just a dumb way to try and point out "irony" where there was really none. Like I say, wanna point out irony about my little joke about pro-wrestling and punk rock, just mention that punk rock was basically a "back to the roots" movement, which in a way, is reactionary (whereas post-punk wasn't). Like Cornette. So you don't find the irony in referencing something from 40+ years ago after making the accusation that somebody is stuck 20 years in the past? Good to know. Do you have any idea about how to have decent conversation without going into full on defensive tangents, by the way? Or do you just like to "stick to facts" and get really, really aggravated when people debate them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 21 minutes ago, Laz said: So you don't find the irony in referencing something from 40+ years ago after making the accusation that somebody is stuck 20 years in the past? No. Because the fact that I'm referencing something from 40 years ago has nothing to do with the notion that I would think something from 40 years ago would be inherently better than what happens today. It would have been ironic if I referenced something from 40 years ago as the golden age or something. Plus, I don't picture Corny as a guy who would be pissed for instance by the rise of the bubblegum-bass scene in the 10's (to talk about something I do care about and have listened to a lot and followed closely), I think it's a pretty safe bet he has never even heard the word... Pro-wrestling is always way behind the times in term of pop culture relevance (yeah, Bad Bunny, I know...), so really, dad rock vs punk really came naturally as a joke. That's about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 9 hours ago, El-P said: Yes, kinda, because Laz thought it was sooo ironic that I would use some 43 year old reference (and not a good one either, because 1978 is not even the best year for punk rock and that is apparently a fact and not an opinion, see) to make fun of Cornette being stuck in the past, yet one has nothing to do with the other since I don't care about punk rock so I don't defer to something that was 43 years ago as being inherently better like Cornette does (no, I don't mean specifically 43 years ago). So yeah, maybe it's not "ironic" (well, kinda still), it was just a dumb way to try and point out "irony" where there was really none. Like I say, wanna point out irony about my little joke about pro-wrestling and punk rock, just mention that punk rock was basically a "back to the roots" movement, which in a way, is reactionary (whereas post-punk wasn't). Like Cornette. No offense but I'm honestly not sure what you're saying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 35 minutes ago, Laz said: Do you have any idea about how to have decent conversation without going into full on defensive tangents, by the way? Or do you just like to "stick to facts" and get really, really aggravated when people debate them? That's rich coming from you. I just made a joke and you choose to respond to this with long-ass reply to a *joke* with a long-ass post in 4 points which basically was "ohhh the irony". That's always a good start for a "decent conversation", yeah.... 11 minutes ago, MoS said: No offense but I'm honestly not sure what you're saying That Laz passive-agressive reply to my joke about "pro-wrestling not being very punk rock" was lame as fuck, basically. I mean, there was really nothing to debate or talk about, it was just... a joke... like, I wasn't saying anything serious there. I have no idea why this needed a long-ass put-down response which included the FACT that 1978 actually ISN'T THE BEST YEAR for punk-rock... Ok. Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 There was nothing passive aggressive about it, actually. I've just noticed an ongoing trend of people talking about what they don't like about [insert Elite member here] and you going off with various paragraphs that amount to "I like them and your criticism is wrong because I like them." We get it. You don't like Cornette and disagree with just about all of his takes, even the ones that are pretty accurate (like how the BUSINESS of pro wrestling was more fruitful pre-Vince). Then you make lousy jokes and get mad when people point out why the joke doesn't land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 17 minutes ago, Laz said: There was nothing passive aggressive about it, actually. I've just noticed an ongoing trend of people talking about what they don't like about [insert Elite member here] and you going off with various paragraphs that amount to "I like them and your criticism is wrong because I like them." Nope, I don't do that. Sorry. 17 minutes ago, Laz said: Then you make lousy jokes and get mad when people point out why the joke doesn't land. I'm not mad. I don't give a fuck. And really, you've made nothing but terrible points. You accuse me of stating opinions as facts then say shit like "1978 was not a great year for punk rock anyway" or "THAT IS modern wrestling", which is the picture perfect occurence of opinion stated as fact. When confronted about your bullshit (me "stanning Omega" when he was barely if at all part of the ongoing discussion), you very conveniently no-sell because, fuck, why apologize when you say stuff that isn't true, right ? I mean, watch me stan Omega when I *actually* do it... Can we put this to rest now ? I mean, it's as boring as Corny talking about modern pro-wrestling. Still, if there's some irony somewhere, is that for years and years I was a Corny fan and defender when he did not have a crowd of followers. Yeah, this is irony, because over the years I've agreed with Corny a lot. Comes a point in time where his and my opinions on current pro-wrestling just went on totally opposite directions, the fact he can't keep himself from using racist, homophobic and sexist shit in his rants lately basically drives the point home that no, the right quote would not be "You're not wrong, you're just an asshole", it would rather be "It doesn't matter if you're wrong or right anymore, you're just an asshole." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 2 hours ago, El-P said: Nope, I don't do that. Sorry. You absolutely do. @Laz is 100% correct. Go back and look at half the posts you've made in this thread alone. Or the Jim Cornette podcasts threads over in the podcast forum. Or the NWA Power thread. Every time anybody says anything remotely critical of Kenny Omega, The Young Bucks, "The Elite" or to some degree AEW at all...you tend to come out with guns blazing and pretty much try and steamroll over anybody who doesn't agree with you. You're entitled to your opinion...the only problem is that you always act your opinion is a fact and there can't possibly be another side to the argument. That's fine if that's the way you want to act, but at least own it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 21, 2021 Report Share Posted February 21, 2021 55 minutes ago, The Thread Killer said: Or the NWA Power thread. Every time anybody says anything remotely critical of Kenny Omega, The Young Bucks, "The Elite" or to some degree AEW at all...you tend to come out with guns blazing and pretty much try and steamroll over anybody who doesn't agree with you. You're entitled to your opinion...the only problem is that you always act your opinion is a fact and there can't possibly be another side to the argument. That's fine if that's the way you want to act, but at least own it. Well, I'm sorry, but there are actual facts about the Bucks & Omega in term of their actual status in pro-wrestling, which is something Cornette (and other) just don't want to accept. Stating those facts have nothing to do with an opinion. But maybe we should accept the idea that none of them are stars, that they did not matter in NJPW, that AEW is actually not a success and whatever inane point Corny (and others) makes about them. As far the defending them as workers, well, I don't do any different from what I do and has always done with any other worker I love. I guess it's always easier to agree than disagree... No one begins their tirades about this or that with "In my humble opinion" (which actually means the opposite anyway)... As far as "to some degree AEW", come one now. I've criticize plenty of stuff like the early Dark Order gimmick, the awful push of useless Swole, JR's announcing, the bad wedding segment, but hey, I'm mostly a big fan so guess what, I have a positive outlook on them because they deliver something I usually like a lot. Silly me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 14 hours ago, El-P said: When Corny say stupid stuff like "Booo Kenny and the Bucks are killing the business, they aren't stars, they will never be successfull, AEW is an outlaw mud show that is not successful" 1 hour ago, El-P said: Well, I'm sorry, but there are actual facts about the Bucks & Omega in term of their actual status in pro-wrestling, which is something Cornette (and other) just don't want to accept. Stating those facts have nothing to do with an opinion. But maybe we should accept the idea that none of them are stars, that they did not matter in NJPW, that AEW is actually not a success and whatever inane point Corny (and others) makes about them. Here's the problem...Cornette doesn't actually say half of those things. Has he said Kenny and The Bucks are "killing the business?" Sure, he says that anybody that does anything that is blatantly and deliberately "fake" during what is supposed to be a Pro Wrestling match is killing the business. As is well documented, that includes stuff like wrestling 9 year old girls, wrestling blowup dolls, wrestling the "Invisible Man" suplexing people with your penis, etc. So on that point, you are absolutely correct. Jim Cornette has been highly critical of Omega and The Bucks for contributing to the downfall of traditional Pro Wrestling by doing certain things which he believes are detrimental to the Pro Wrestling business. But... Cornette didn't say Kenny and The Bucks aren't stars. He never said they will never be successful. He never said AEW isn't successful. One of Cornette's favorite expressions that he uses all the time is: "For people who like that sort of thing, that is exactly the sort of thing those people will like." Jim Cornette says that Omega, The Bucks and a lot (but not all) of the talent in AEW are stars to the AEW audience...but just to the AEW audience. What he has actually said is that AEW will never achieve mainstream success and popularity like Pro Wrestling used to have. Cornette famously claimed that Dynamite would be cancelled by TNT by March 2020 if their ratings didn't get any better. Shortly after he made that brazen claim, TNT not only renewed Dynamite but asked AEW for a second show. Cornette said at the time, he was obviously wrong...that TNT was clearly content to settle for an audience of 600,000 to 1,000,000 viewers every week and let that be the ceiling. Cornette claimed that he is well aware that AEW has a very devoted fanbase that will continue to follow their product and even go so far as to travel around the country to support it. He just thinks if AEW continues to do what they have been doing so far, they're never going to get any bigger or break through to the next level. As far as their past...Cornette admits that PWG was successful...but that they played to a limited audience in small venues. He admitted that Kenny Omega was successful in New Japan. He has admitted he has no idea how successful or important The Young Bucks actually were in New Japan. Brian Last has repeatedly claimed that if The Young Bucks weren't part of the Bullet Club and "The Elite" then on their own they would have been nothing more than a midcard act in New Japan. Last has also claimed that he has been informed by sources inside New Japan that no real effort was made to keep The Young Bucks in New Japan because New Japan didn't see a lot of value in them. Last has said New Japan absolutely did want to keep Omega in New Japan and would have kept The Bucks around if it would have kept Omega happy, but on their own New Japan was pretty much indifferent to The Young Bucks. Cornette has never commented on that because he happily admits he doesn't watch New Japan and has no idea what goes on in New Japan. The point is...I have listened to more Jim Cornette over the past few years than I wish I had, and I have never heard Jim Cornette claim that Kenny Omega wasn't successful in New Japan Pro Wrestling. I haven't even heard him say AEW isn't successful. I have heard him say repeatedly that he thinks they are just playing to the same limited audience, they have no mainstream appeal, and if they keep doing what they are doing they will never achieve mainstream success. The thing is, he doesn't limit that criticism to just AEW. He claims he can't figure out why WWE also seems content to keep appealing to the same limited (and diminishing) audience instead of trying to recapture previous success. I've heard him say it a million times...Pro Wrestling fans today are willing to pay more money than ever before to be fans, but there are less of them now than there have been in years. Cornette has repeatedly talked about the kind of ratings Pro Wrestling got back in the 70's and 80's and even about the huge ratings WCW and the WWF got back during the 90's. He says he can't understand why WWE and AEW are satisfied with playing to such a smaller audience now, and why they won't try to widen their appeal and try and regain that level of popularity. And yes...he has said he thinks AEW is incapable or rising above where they are now and reaching that kind of success. You can argue all day whether or not his opinion is right...maybe AEW could achieve greater success. Maybe "modern" Pro Wrestling is capable of drawing the kind of ratings and fans Pro Wrestling has in the past. That's debatable. But to claim that Cornette is denying that Omega or AEW are successful to their own audience right now...I just don't think that is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 I understand all of this. But the landscape of pro-wrestling has evolved tremendously since the 80's and 90's. People have evolved in the way they consume entertainment. Younger people from the 2010's are not the same as three or four decades ago. WWE is trying right now with Bad Bunny to reach a younger audience, who knows what that may produce in the long run. Maybe pro-wrestling will never be as popular as before. And so what ? Personally, I couldn't care less, the more mainstream pro-wrestling is, the less the product appeals to me usually (Hulkamania & the Attitude Era really did not produce what I like the most about pro-wrestling). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 Wrestling can probably be way more popular than it is, but the answers don't lie in going back to the way things used to be, even if looking for what successful periods have had in common can be valuable as a resource in mapping a way forward. The common denominators have usually been either going with brand new stars or repackaging existing stars in a very fresh way that people haven't seen, and those people seeming like they are a relevant part of the larger popular culture of the time period. That has meant different things at different times. What usually doesn't work in wrestling is an attempt to "recapture" something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 The one thing I did not address about Corny is that he seems to make a causality link between the way workers work and the "lack of popularity" of modern wrestling. Like, if Matt Jackson did not "hulk-up" or if Kenny Omega would be a way more serious character, magically AEW would draw more viewers. That's not how it works. 19 minutes ago, Loss said: The common denominators have usually been either going with brand new stars or repackaging existing stars in a very fresh way that people haven't seen, and those people seeming like they are a relevant part of the larger popular culture of the time period. ie Hulk Hogan turning heel for the "first" time and being part of an "outlaw" faction with a super strong and fresh (and different, key factor) visual identity, then Steve Austin/Rock emerging with WWF switching to a much more violent and "edgy" product inspired by ECW (although they will never acknowledge this part, but come on now, the garbage matches, the table spots galore, the over-sexualization of women). The younger audience is watching streamers on Twitch. The really younger audience is doing stupid choregraphy on TikTok. This is not the same world. These are not the same people. And no, Corny, you can't make racist, homophobic and sexist jokes anymore and expecting nothing will happen on social media. That is the audience of today. But hey, Cornette's idea of the "next big thing" in TNA was Matt Morgan... Again, to me the Corny story is a sad one, because for a long time, he was one of the smartest guy anywhere in pro-wrestling (not to mention a GOAT promo/manager and announcer). He just lost the plot, and what's worse is that he mainly did for really petty reasons of irrational hate for a bunch of people who rubbed him the wrong way in the past. It is super sad. Two years ago still I would have loved to see Cornette work alongside the new generation and even maybe work a great angle like he did in ECW (for sheer favor to a friend, but still, he did it and it was great). These days... nah. As a long time huge Cornette fan, yeah, just sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 Again, TTK can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Cornette has ever blamed "Hulk Hogan Buck" on the state of Professional Wrestling. That appears to be his biggest pet peeve with the Buck because he doesn't buy Matt Jackson as an ass-kicker and finds those comeback spots to be phony. With Cornette it's more about the lack of characters with big personalities who come across as genuine. While there's some exceptions like Eddie Kingston and Darby Allin he finds there's a lot of people who are just goofing off and making light of the ridiculous angles they're caught up in. I don't think he wants a no-frills show either. Cornette has spoken at length about how boring he finds NXT and how it does a poor job of promoting it's talent despite having a really good roster to work with. It's less offensive than a show like Dynamite, Raw or SmackDown but it's just spinning it's wheels as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 5 hours ago, El-P said: But hey, Cornette's idea of the "next big thing" in TNA was Matt Morgan.. Come on that's not fair.... in 2002 OVW who in their right mind wouldn't look at Matt Morgan and not think he could be top guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 In 2002 in OVW maybe. In 2007 in a company where you already have AJ Styles and Samoa Joe, that's another matter entirely. Not to mention Morgan had seemingly not improved one bit since then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 I think in 2007 you could look at Matt Morgan and chalk up him not working out in WWE to that being the WWE's fault. It's 2021 and I still don't understand how he never was able to draw money anywhere for anybody. He is charming and well spoken enough to be elected mayor of his hometown. He was athletic enough to have played D1 hoops and been an American Gladiator. He's 7 foot tall and 300 plus pounds. And he's good looking. I'll never understand how the guy didn't have a more successful career. Matt Morgan is like the Darko Milicic of pro wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 7 minutes ago, joeg said: I'll never understand how the guy didn't have a more successful career. He was not a good promo, he was not a good worker, he had no presence whatsoever despite looking good and being tall. That pretty much sums it up. I mean, I'm basically at late 2011 on my TNA watch (yeah, I STILL do that on occasion), and the guy STILL gets pushed regularly and he has never ever clicked not delivered a worthwhile performance, including against great workers. He just did not have it. I was watching the first Elimination Chamber last night and honestly Baron Corbin is ten times better than Morgan ever was (yeah, I just said something positive about Corbin). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 You totally didn't get the Darko Milicic reference did you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 2 minutes ago, joeg said: You totally didn't get the Darko Milicic reference did you Absolutely not ! I had to google the name. I don't watch sport (apart from sumo) ! Sorry !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 LOL... there really isn't any overlap between sports and wrestling fans is there... Darko was the 2nd pick in the NBA draft in 2003... At the time he was the youngest player ever in the NBA. He was 17 years old, 7'1" could run like the wind had great hands, a nice jump shot, and picked in front of 4 future Hall of Famers. Despite being faster, younger, and taller than everybody else in that draft, Darko never really had a successful career. And every couple of years a different team in the NBA would sign Darko to a big contract with the belief that Darko's failures were the result of his previous team.... He never had a good season but he did manage to to get signed to several very lucrative contracts and have a long yet unsucessful career... a lot like Matt Morgan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted February 22, 2021 Report Share Posted February 22, 2021 32 minutes ago, joeg said: I think in 2007 you could look at Matt Morgan and chalk up him not working out in WWE to that being the WWE's fault. It's 2021 and I still don't understand how he never was able to draw money anywhere for anybody. He is charming and well spoken enough to be elected mayor of his hometown. He was athletic enough to have played D1 hoops and been an American Gladiator. He's 7 foot tall and 300 plus pounds. And he's good looking. I'll never understand how the guy didn't have a more successful career. Matt Morgan is like the Darko Milicic of pro wrestling. This is bullshit. Darko was over in Detroit because if he came off the bench that meant the game was well in hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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