The Cancellation of Jim Cornette

[Migs]

4 minutes ago, Loss said:

The key would have to be that either they are willing to learn from each other or you have someone refereeing who brokers compromises. But I do think there's something to that approach. No one is always right. 

Right. I think a lot of the struggles of AEW, particularly relating to the main characters, has been about translating what worked for them in a different format (YouTube show + working big events) into a weekly TV product. It's unclear to me if there's someone in the process who can go "hey Bucks, I see what you're trying to do, but the characters are coming off a bit schizophrenic and wrecking the face/heel dynamic. Yeah, I hear ya, shades of grey, long-term storytelling. Oh, I saw BTE last week, it was great. But a million people watch the show and 200,000 watch BTE, and maybe we can tell the story in a way that's a little simpler and cleaner." 

[NintendoLogic]

30 minutes ago, El-P said:

Meanwhile, I'm currently going through Rikidozan matches and I see soooo much totally ridiculous stuff even by today's standards. The idea that pro-wrestling was ever "believable" in and out of itself is ridiculous. What should be studied is the sociological profiles of audiences over times and places and the relationship they had with the idea of believability in such a spectacle, all of that wrapped up in an ever changing context of entertainment industry. That would be much more interesting than shouting at clouds because "young guys can't work and are killing the business".

Rikidozan was a former sumo who had shot on and knocked out legendary judoka Masahiko Kimura, so the fans bought into him as a skilled fighter even if his matches were fixed. That's largely the case in general. The public as a whole may not have thought pro wrestling was on the level (although a surprising number did-again, there wouldn't have been so many attempted shootings and stabbings of heels if no one thought it was real), but they thought the wrestlers themselves were legitimate tough guys. When Dick Shikat double-crossed Danno O'Mahony and exposed him as purely a creation of promoters, it killed wrestling in New York for over a decade.

[El-P]

19 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

Rikidozan was a former sumo who had shot on and knocked out legendary judoka Masahiko Kimura, so the fans bought into him as a skilled fighter even if his matches were fixed.

Well, we don't know what the fans really *thought*. There's no way of telling. And no, surveys don't work, because people lie.

BTW, that supposed double-cross shoot, whatever that was, was brutal to watch. Rikidozan stiffed the hell ouf of Kimura. Those punts  while the guy was on the floor. That's Maeda level assholliness. The story remains unclear to me, although Kimura stated that it was a double-cross and it sure looks hellish. If that was the case, then Rikidozan really was an unprofessional asshole (they never worked again after that point either). If not, well, they sure made it look good....

19 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

When Dick Shikat double-crossed Danno O'Mahony and exposed him as purely a creation of promoters, it killed wrestling in New York for over a decade.

Stuff like this killed the perception indeed, but where does perception ends and belief begins, that's a mystery.

[Coffey]

I feel like Freddie Prinze, Jr. did a decent job at WWE - at least had the right ideas - for the short time that he was there. His name doesn't come up too often & I'm not sure if WWE soured him on the idea of pro-wrestling as a whole or not. I think it's not necessarily a bad idea to had the mind of some non wrestling people to help come up with new ideas, so long as there are wrestling people around them, you know?

[KinchStalker]

8 hours ago, El-P said:

The story remains unclear to me, although Kimura stated that it was a double-cross and it sure looks hellish. If that was the case, then Rikidozan really was an unprofessional asshole (they never worked again after that point either). If not, well, they sure made it look good....

Usually I'd save something like this for my puro history thread, but Rikidozan's ruthlessness in the Kimura affair went way beyond just shooting on him, so I have trouble believing it could have been a work. This is from the 2019 book Japan: The Rikidozan Years.

What you have to know about this match is that it started when Kimura made comments challenging Rikidozan's legitimacy. He privately bristled over being cast as the FIP of their tag team despite being at least as accomplished in his respective martial art as Rikidozan ever was in sumo. (Kimura reached 7th dan before his rank was frozen due to a.) becoming a pro wrestler, b.) instructing people in judo without Kodokan knowing about it, and c.) the Hélio Gracie match.) This challenge to Rikidozan was printed by Asahi Shimbun, the youngest of Japan's big newspapers and one with business interests in judo, as opposed to their primary competitor, eldest newspaper Mainichi, which was in business with both the sumo association and the JWA. (But yes, that is the same Asahi as TV Asahi, or at least the same parent company.) With Asahi fanning the flames the hype around a Rikidozan/Kimura match became too large to ignore, and the two had a meeting for a singles match to debut the promotion's singles title.

During this meeting, Kimura surreptitiously passed a note to Rikidozan, suggesting that they go to a time-limit draw in their first match. Kimura had gone into pro wrestling purely for money - his wife needed streptomycin, which he couldn't afford on his old police instructor salary - and he surmised that they could make a lot of money if they dragged this feud out into 1955. Well, after the match, Rikidozan showed the backstage reporters that note. Kimura had questioned Rikidozan's kayfabe legitimacy, and in response, Rikidozan fucking decimated his.

[El-P]

11 hours ago, KinchStalker said:

Well, after the match, Rikidozan showed the backstage reporters that note. Kimura had questioned Rikidozan's kayfabe legitimacy, and in response, Rikidozan fucking decimated his.

Well, that is one hell of a double-cross. Thanks for the insight !

[Mad Dog]

It amuses me that Danhausen won both of them over with his Cameos. 

[The Thread Killer]

I made the mistake of perusing Twitter earlier today and found it highly humourous that more than one person (quite a few, actually) have taken to preemptively assuming what Jim Cornette is GOING to say about a particular match, angle, wrestler or topic…and then proceeding to tweet a particularly vitriolic and detailed rebuttal to what they assume Cornette is going to say…when he hasn’t even said it yet. 

I admit there have been times where I have watched a particular segment or match and thought to myself “Boy, this is going to make Cornette’s head explode.” But I have never considered posting a comeback as part of an argument that hasn’t even started yet. This dude is definitely living rent free in a lot of heads.

[Lee]

That kind of thing has been a massive bug-bear of mine for years, people coming up with ripostes to hypothetical situations they've entirely invented themselves. 

"Knowing Vince McMahon, he'll probably do A, B, and C. Now here's a five paragraph diatribe on why he's a massive idiot for doing that!" 

[C.S.]

According to the upper right corner of this page, I'm one of the top posters in this thread with 90 posts.

How is that possible? Or is this some fuckery from switching to the new board?

I didn't watch Cornette in his prime (my introduction to him was in the WWF), don't listen to his audio show, don't generally like what I've heard about him, and don't care about him in general otherwise. 

If the statistic is true, I can only assume the thread veered off-topic at points and I contributed at those times.

Either that or I waste way too much fucking time on a forum where 90% of the users actively dislike my posts and opinions. 

[sek69]

5 minutes ago, C.S. said:

Either that or I waste way too much fucking time on a forum where 90% of the users actively dislike my posts and opinions. 

I'd like to think we've all come to terms with your Mauro and Christian obessions at this point 

[The Thread Killer]

1 hour ago, sek69 said:

I'd like to think we've all come to terms with your Mauro and Christian obessions at this point 

True.  Mauro and Christian = good. PAC and Samoa Joe = bad. But I really like Good Brother @C.S. anyhow. You can dislike the opinion but still like the person rendering it here at PWO. 

 

 

 

[Robert S]

I listened a bit to the reaction of Cornette on Vince's retirement and Cornette's complete lack of understanding of how law works is astounding. He assumed that Vince cannot be criminally charged for sexual harassment because he bought the woman off.

[The Thread Killer]

24 minutes ago, Robert S said:

I listened a bit to the reaction of Cornette on Vince's retirement and Cornette's complete lack of understanding of how law works is astounding. He assumed that Vince cannot be criminally charged for sexual harassment because he bought the woman off.

Yeah, Brian Last had to really reign him in there. Cornette really has no clue how corporate culture works at all, and he is totally ignorant about labor laws and liability. Which is odd considering he used to run his own company…you’d have thought he would have picked up even a marginal clue regarding appropriate workplace conduct and accountability. But…nope. Remember his brilliant position on Becky Lynch taking maternity leave?

It goes back to something I had discussed a long time ago, either in this thread or the thread about his podcast. Quite honestly, Jim Cornette is not really all that intelligent. It’s not just that I don’t agree with a lot of his opinions about politics, it’s that his basic understanding of social issues and current events are usually remarkably simplistic and he is incredibly ill-informed. When he actually attempts to expound upon his reasoning for some of his opinions, you can tell that he is just not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

He has street smarts, and he has a razor sharp wit. But even he himself admits, he basically only has a high school education, and he spent his entire adult life on the road working at his career in professional wrestling. He has admitted he never voted, and never read or watched the news while he was working. He doesn’t read much, unless it is related to pro wrestling. He gets most of his news and information from Twitter and soundbites on CNN.

Jim Cornette is pretty much a savant when it comes to pro wrestling history. It amazes me when he can accurately quote dates and matches from the distant past, with perfect clarity and accuracy. His analysis on Vince McMahon‘s impact on the wrestling industry in general, and where things might go from here was actually interesting and insightful. But his take on the things that let up to this situation are quite cringeworthy.

[Embrodak]

Cornette is pretty smart, but he’s pretty uneducated and ignorant about a lot of things.

[Cobra Commander]

On 7/25/2022 at 5:32 PM, The Thread Killer said:

Cornette really has no clue how corporate culture works at all, and he is totally ignorant about labor laws and liability. Which is odd considering he used to run his own company

he has mentioned a bunch of times about how corporate suits ruin wrestling companies, so clearly he wasn't gonna do any of thaaaat

also gotta imagine the percentage of male employees/talent in Smoky or OVW was quite a bit higher than the percentage of male employees/talent in the recent WWE, so if the only women working around the company are either Tammy Sytch, Tony Anthony's wife occasionally, Jackie Moore for a few minutes, or Pam in the office.

[WrestlingPower]

“Pam in the office” was gone when Horner was gone.  So at least 1/2 of SMW was just Jim, Hildebrand, Sandy Scott, and occassional other helpers as “office”.