Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[El-P]

*grab a bag of chips and a beer*

[FMKK]

1 hour ago, Rocco said:

I dont know why Mark even bothers with a moron like Lio Rush.  

Tbh, I think Henry is the moron. He always shills for the company online in a way that's kind of embarrassing. Just because he's had a nice career doesn't mean there's no racism in the company. Look at how minority characters have been portrayed and talked about over the years. 

And wasn't Henry pressuring Martha Hart for not giving permission for Owen to go into their dopey Hall of Fame? Rush might be an idiot at times but I don't think Henry thinks much outside of the WWE bubble.

[C.S.]

The entire sordid saga...

 

But in a nutshell: Henry is threatening to sue Rush for saying, "And this is why African American talent on the biggest platform will continue to not have equal opportunity because people like you constantly tear your own people down."

 

 

Mark Henry's original comments (YouTube embed is messed up, at least on my end).

 

 

[sek69]

If even 1% of what Lio says its true, it's so weird and yet so typically pro wrestling that a guy like Mark Henry would end up becoming a company man when they spent like 3/4ths of his career making him do embarrassing shit to make him quit.

[Burgundy LaRue]

As I remember, this started when Lio moved to the main roster and was negotiating a new contract. Word had WWE offering $300K per year. Lio wanted more, possibly $600K. Lio said that he was having trouble paying for travel while still providing for his family.

There was also the issue of some expecting Lio to carry bags/fetch water/clean the locker room as the new guy on the main card. Lio felt that it undermined his status as a superstar, especially as an African American man.

Mark said he approached Lio in catering one night. Said he heard Lio was having problems, did he want to talk. Lio said everything was cool, though it clearly wasn't. Mark went on Busted Open and publicly shamed Lio, called him a liar, said that he needed to go along with the program and that if Lio was has having money problems, it was because he spent too much.

Lio eventually returned to NXT, and is now gone.

Lio may be a hothead, but he's not wrong about most of this situation. Mark is a WWE stooge, simply put. Asking someone if they have problems at work in a public area where co-workers can hear what's being said is bad form. And who's to say Lio saw Mark as a mentor, anyhow? The locker room stuff is plain stupid, especially in 2020. If other adults can't get their own water, that's their problem. I understand new talent have a probation period, if you will. But that shouldn't require running errands for co-workers.

Mark works under the impression of doing things like he did when he arrived to WWE. But he received a multi-million dollar deal based on his powerlifting career and potential, a deal Vince almost instantly regretted when Mark didn't catch on as fast as hoped. They stuck him in terrible angles in hopes of him quitting so they could nullify his contract. To his credit, Mark stuck with it. But that was nearly 25 years ago. Expecting any talent, let alone Black talent, to have a similar mentality is silly. And Lio was never afforded anything on Mark's level. To assume would take the abuse he did and ignore it is terrible. Not everyone is going to move on after Michael Hayes calls them the n-word to their face like Mark did.

Threatening to sue Lio for talking about a situation he himself made public is Mark trying to throw his weight around. Hoping to shut up Lio because he knows the guy doesn't have money for lawyers, especially now. 

Mark takes being a company man to Seth Rollins' level, and it's embarrassing.

 

[cm funk]

I like Mark Henry a lot.....but I can't argue with anything you said there.

I do get where he's coming from, having earned his keep in WWE despite all the obstacles thrown in his way.  Yes, he had the big money/expectations out of the gate....but a lesser man wouldn't have survived the type of crap he had to endure from all sides for years.  The wrestling business has run so many "outsiders" off for all kinds of reasons, he was a survivor.  I respect the man for turning a negative into a positive, and for turning into a damn good pro-wrestler along the way.

Times are definitely different now than they were almost 25 years ago when he broke in though.  This isn't the days of JBL and Bob Holly any more.  And it's hard to be a "locker room leader" when you're a retired MARK HENRY.....who other than being black probably has very little in common with Lio. 

As far as Lio goes, I like him too.  He's super talented.  From the outside looking in it seems like he may have caused and or/exacerbated a lot of his problems.  But then again I don't have a problem with him having a problem with any of the things he allegedly had problems with

[Coffey]

4 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Lio felt that it undermined his status as a superstar, especially as an African American man.

Expecting any talent, let alone Black talent, to have a similar mentality is silly. And Lio was never afforded anything on Mark's level. To assume would take the abuse he did and ignore it is terrible. Not everyone is going to move on after Michael Hayes calls them the n-word to their face like Mark did.

I actually hadn't thought about it in that way - and that's on me being white & naive - but that's very enlightening. Like, the whole "paying your dues" shit probably would take on a completely different meaning to black people if they're being ordered around by white people in power to do shit like carrying their bags.

And there's a reason Michael Hayes would pull that shit on someone like Mark Henry & not someone like Ron "unfuckwithable" Simmons. Hayes should have been fired eons ago anyway.

[El-P]

Mark Henry is a company stooge, it's nothing new. He only knows WWE. And whatever struggle he had at first (while being on a fat-as contract that very seldom people ever got signed to), he ended up a very respected member of "the family", so he speaks as a "dominant" here. Isn't the whole "They gave Mark Henry tons of awful stuff to try and make him quit" narrative a bit overstated anyway ?

5 hours ago, Coffey said:

And there's a reason Michael Hayes would pull that shit on someone like Mark Henry & not someone like Ron "unfuckwithable" Simmons. Hayes should have been fired eons ago anyway.

No shit.

[Loss]

Wrestling has really dumb, pointless and sometimes cruel inside traditions that they disguise as paying dues. It's also a business full of people who think that if something didn't happen to them personally that it never could have possibly happened to anyone. That's my ultimate takeaway from this dispute, and it's hardly the first time I've thought that.

[El-P]

5 minutes ago, Loss said:

Wrestling has really dumb, pointless and sometimes cruel inside traditions that they disguise as paying dues. It's also a business full of people who think that if something didn't happen to them personally that it never could have possibly happened to anyone.

It's true in a lot of part of society though. The carny history of pro-wrestling only emphasizes those aspects, especially the first one.

[C.S.]

John Cena is an absolutely gross control freak, and WWE is no better.

Wrestling Inc.: WWE And John Cena Had Editorial Rights For New Memoir From The Bella Twins

 

 

[El-P]

I remember ages ago when I stumbled onto some of the Bella Twin reality show and I saw John Cena's house and my thought was : who the hell wants to live like that ? 

[FMKK]

I know people talk about Brie being a factor in Bryan resigning with WWE but maybe the Bellas are better off cutting ties at this point as well. They've got as much as they can get out of them and have like three or four business ventures on the go. I guess WWE still has a hand in the reality show but if it does good ratings, I'm sure someone would pick up a spin-off that the company doesn't have a stake in. 

[C.S.]

With the Lio Rush incident and now this, has Mark Henry gone off the deep end?

To be fair, the full quote: “I was doing extra work for WWE in 2014 as a Rosebud, my costume of choice when we went to the costume section was Elvis. Backstage, Mark Henry sees me. He quoted an Elvis song and he said to me, “You know what that song’s about? Race. Because Elvis was an effing racist!” and like squares up to me. So I confidently looked him in the face and said, oh, I’m not Elvis… I’m the Honkey Tonk Man! He gives me a high five and an embrace and was like, I like that kid. I thought Mark Henry was the coolest guy ever after that, he was sound.”

[El-P]

Elvis was a hero to most

But he never meant shit to me you see

Straight up racist that sucker was

Simple and plain

(aka, I don't see what's shocking about that one)

[flyonthewall2983]

.

[KawadaSmile]

19 hours ago, El-P said:

Elvis was a hero to most

But he never meant shit to me you see

Straight up racist that sucker was

Simple and plain

(aka, I don't see what's shocking about that one)

Motherfuck him and John Wayne

[C.S.]

Elvis being racist was thoroughly debunked though.

Chuck D passing along urban legends as facts doesn't make it so.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/shine-my-shoes/

[NintendoLogic]

What a shame for Sammy Guevara that he didn't make the cut and missed out on the opportunity to spend months at the Performance Center doing forward rolls and being yelled at by Lacey Evans.

[El-P]

Wow. This is SO embarrassing for the company. And Lacey fucking Evans of all people ? 

And really, when you watch Double or Nothing and you see guys like MJH (only 24), Jungle Boy (only 24) and Sammy Guevarra (only 26) absolutely killing it and shining all the way and look at what WWE has been doing with Ricochet (31) for instance, who a few years ago looked like he was a can't miss prospect. Honestly, apart from being a WWE-only fan, I have no idea why anyone would want to sign with that company when there's a 95% chance of them fucking you up.

[sek69]

WWE has benefited from being the only game in town for a generation, so people growing up wanting to be a wrestler only had WWE has a goal since it was all they knew.  An underrated aspect of AEW existing is now young talent have a choice between going to WWE and have their best bet be spending their prime earning years in NXT before getting jobbed out on the main roster, or going to another major promotion on national TV that has shown they'll put young folks in key positions if they show they can bring the goods. 

There's always going to be people who's goal in life is WWE or Bust, but at some point it's going to become clear that a couple years of WWE money might not be worth potentially becoming a star elsewhere and getting bigger money.

[El-P]

55 minutes ago, sek69 said:

WWE has benefited from being the only game in town for a generation, so people growing up wanting to be a wrestler only had WWE has a goal since it was all they knew.  An underrated aspect of AEW existing is now young talent have a choice between going to WWE and have their best bet be spending their prime earning years in NXT before getting jobbed out on the main roster, or going to another major promotion on national TV that has shown they'll put young folks in key positions if they show they can bring the goods. 

Not only that, but WWE's audience is basically old people now. If nothing goes awry. a new generation of fans is gonna grow up with a brand new mainstream product, and AEW can become the new reference for a new generation of workers coming up in the next five years. 

[KawadaSmile]

Worst part is that WWE does have really good young wrestlers, and quite a lot of them. 

I remember I even mentioned during the UK Tournament that the final had a 21 year old wrestling a 19 year old and they delivered.

They still have people like Liv Morgan and Velveteen Dream. Otis can be a good hand and is also in his twenties. AOP are also around the same age as Guevara.

Hell, Rhea herself is 22, 23 years old. Her title victory was amazing and I believe most of us would want her to still be champ.

 

They, however, ain't even thinking on the short term when it comes to their pushes. There's no planning at all sometimes.

[Loss]

There will always be wrestlers for whom it's the right decision to go to WWE, depending on what they are seeking, much like in the 90s, when it made sense for some to go to WCW and for others to go to the WWF. The difference is that WWE used to be the best place to go if you were young and willing to work a busy schedule, because you'd easily exceed your downside guarantee and usually get a real shot at stardom. Now, I think it makes more sense for people like Styles and Nakamura who have put in so much time without ever making big money to sign as their bodies are breaking down. That used to be the type of wrestler better off in WCW.

[FMKK]

I think an underrated aspect of WWE not drawing a younger audience is not having younger stars either. Obviously there are a million other factors but a show full of 40 year olds that's watched by 50 year olds is not cool. And no one comes in as an exciting new commodity because they piss around in NXT for years before they ever make it onto Raw. I can't imagine there being much excitement about a Gargano or whoever getting called up because he's already been overexposed as fuck. The one exception to that route is AJ Styles and he's the one who's gotten the furthest out of anyone they've signed in the last five years. Maybe that should tell us something about NXT.

Having younger guys who are hot does way more to draw women than pushed female wrestling imo (although there was probably a way to cultivate a larger female audience to watch for the women's matches if they hadn't have gone so heavy handed with the corporate branding)