The Jim Ross Is A Grouchy Hateful Vile Human Being thread

[S.L.L.]

My birthday was back in last October but I will gladly accept a Wrestling Death Apologist Bingo Card as a late birthday gift.

[tomk]

Dissapointed that no square for its the "recreational drugs and alcohol." and lack of variations on "personal choice"but thanks this will be handy.

[S.L.L.]

Dissapointed that no square for its the "recreational drugs and alcohol." and lack of variations on "personal choice"but thanks this will be handy.

No prob. I felt like variations on personal choice would be too redundant. Final square came down to "it's the recreational drugs" or "Mysterio can't be on steroids because he's short", and the Mysterio one seems to be both more common and more laughable, so I went with that.

[tomk]

Yeah the Mysterio one is funny.

 

I also like the Lance Storm: "Vince didn't force people to do drugs, but Road Warrior Animal and Marc Mero forced people to do drugs" and all the variations on that.

[S.L.L.]

Yeah the Mysterio one is funny.

 

I also like the Lance Storm: "Vince didn't force people to do drugs, but Road Warrior Animal and Marc Mero forced people to do drugs" and all the variations on that.

Yeah, that was a good one. Then there were all the Benoit-specific ones I left out. "He probably just snapped", "Maybe he accidentally tied up Nancy and strangled her to death", "He never did anything bad before, and at least he killed himself after the first time, as opposed to Randy Orton....", and so on.

[ohtani's jacket]

Cute.

 

How about Mid-South Project Apologist B-I-N-G-O?

[Bix]

Cute.

 

How about Mid-South Project Apologist B-I-N-G-O?

...................................................?

 

I've got nothing.

 

I mean seriously, what? I get the feeling you're trying to troll someone in relation to the Mid-South deal but I have no idea what about and why Wrestling Death Apologist Bingo led to that.

[ohtani's jacket]

I think the Mid-South project is great, but the whole "you can still like something and criticise it" thing is BS. Not in the sense that people should ignore the sleazy/shitty/fatal aspects of the business, but in their attitude towards it.

[sek69]

I would think that if someone didn't like a thing, they wouldn't waste their time criticizing it. That may just be my take on it.

 

 

Back to JR, I just love how he reverts to the whole "aw shucks" routine when someone calls him on his hypocritical BS.

 

 

Along that same note, it's hilarious to suggest someone who's been around wrestling for 20+ years would not know how to "wink wink" suggest to someone that they need some chemical enhancement. Pretty much every company that exists has some sort of "code" that conveys the message that you can't just come out and say.

[Loss]

I think the Mid-South project is great, but the whole "you can still like something and criticise it" thing is BS. Not in the sense that people should ignore the sleazy/shitty/fatal aspects of the business, but in their attitude towards it.

There's no contradiction. You can acknowledge that wrestling can be great entertainment and also acknowledge that going on a concussed and/or drug-induced rampage and killing your children is wrong.

[Resident Evil]

Yeah the Mysterio one is funny.

 

I also like the Lance Storm: "Vince didn't force people to do drugs, but Road Warrior Animal and Marc Mero forced people to do drugs" and all the variations on that.

Ok, what did Storm say exactly? Going from your quote the first part about Vince not forcing people to take drugs isn't really true though I think I know where Storm's going with that if I remember correctly. The second part of the quote is very true. No, guys like Hawk and Mero didn't force people to do drugs but they certainly helped. Once one guy has an unfair advantage the other guy has to catch up just to try to stay on even ground. The second part of that quote is definitely accurate.

[goodhelmet]

You are taking his quote way too literally. His post was more of a reflection of WWE's reaction to Mero and his anti-WWE crusade after the Benoit murders.

 

And I also don't get the OJ post about Mid South. Can you elaborate?

[Loss]

He thinks we can't talk about wrestling needing to clean up and being a sleazy business on one hand and enjoy it and find it entertaining on the other.

[ohtani's jacket]

My comment wasn't about the Mid-South project specifically, it's about people's attitudes. I think it's OK to say "I don't like the business, but I like wrestling", the point is whether you can separate the two. Where's the consistency in criticisng ROH and praising Mid-South? They both come from the same sleazy business. If there's no contradiction then are we gonna get a criticism of Mid-South? (I hope not, but that's the way it comes across to me -- this stuff is ok, this stuff is the object of scorn.) While we were having the porn vs. wrestling debate, it seemed to me that people who watch porn are a lot more honest about it, just like nobody who has a cigarette is kidding themselves. I mean the only people who watch porn and think, "Well I enjoyed that but something has to be done about it" are anit-porn lobbiysts. I'm not saying people have to learn to live with it or stop watching, or that they shouldn't care, they just need to be consistent... Otherwise, for every remark on that Bingo sheet, there's a counter remark for non-apologists.

[sek69]

You seem to be coming at this from the perspective that it's somehow bad to not be an apologist. Is it so hard to accept that some people have squared the concept that something they enjoy watching has a dark side that has done hell of a lot of damage to some of the participants? I mean, surely you haven't gone this long as a fan of wrestling with access to the internets and not heard the Bill Watts stories so I don't know why you seem to think only certain wrestling groups get criticized.

[S.L.L.]

My comment wasn't about the Mid-South project specifically, it's about people's attitudes. I think it's OK to say "I don't like the business, but I like wrestling", the point is whether you can separate the two. Where's the consistency in criticisng ROH and praising Mid-South? They both come from the same sleazy business. If there's no contradiction then are we gonna get a criticism of Mid-South? (I hope not, but that's the way it comes across to me -- this stuff is ok, this stuff is the object of scorn.) While we were having the porn vs. wrestling debate, it seemed to me that people who watch porn are a lot more honest about it, just like nobody who has a cigarette is kidding themselves. I mean the only people who watch porn and think, "Well I enjoyed that but something has to be done about it" are anit-porn lobbiysts. I'm not saying people have to learn to live with it or stop watching, or that they shouldn't care, they just need to be consistent... Otherwise, for every remark on that Bingo sheet, there's a counter remark for non-apologists.

The Mid-South project is about watching great wrestling and talking about what was the best. Why would you expect to see huge amounts of criticism there? "Best of the 80's: Mid-South Project" vs. "The Jim Ross Is A Grouchy Hateful Vile Human Being thread". Why is it so shocking to you that one is loaded with praise and the other is loaded with scorn?

[Resident Evil]

My comment wasn't about the Mid-South project specifically, it's about people's attitudes. I think it's OK to say "I don't like the business, but I like wrestling", the point is whether you can separate the two. Where's the consistency in criticisng ROH and praising Mid-South? They both come from the same sleazy business. If there's no contradiction then are we gonna get a criticism of Mid-South? (I hope not, but that's the way it comes across to me -- this stuff is ok, this stuff is the object of scorn.) While we were having the porn vs. wrestling debate, it seemed to me that people who watch porn are a lot more honest about it, just like nobody who has a cigarette is kidding themselves. I mean the only people who watch porn and think, "Well I enjoyed that but something has to be done about it" are anit-porn lobbiysts. I'm not saying people have to learn to live with it or stop watching, or that they shouldn't care, they just need to be consistent... Otherwise, for every remark on that Bingo sheet, there's a counter remark for non-apologists.

I really like what I've seen so far from Mid South. I've never been a big fan of ROH though I'm glad they're around for wrestling fans sake. But I don't understand why ROH can get criticised in a couple of different places while Mid South can get praised. Mid South was kind of like ROH where it was "more serious" wrestling. Watts wanted the hard hitting action and scoffed at the weak hitting action of the WWF. Wouldn't he even show video tape evidence of this? This is the kind of action we're supposed to be against now because of concussions, isn't it?

 

People are worried about all these concussions and rightfully so but a day after dissing ROH for concussions and their style right here on this board we have a match featuring Kikuchi who wrestled an extremely hard hitting style who is a poster boy for what can go wrong when your brain gets injured. Where's the consistency?

[Loss]

Where's the inconsistency? I still don't understand.

[S.L.L.]

Where's the inconsistency? I still don't understand.

The "inconsistency", if I'm reading this correctly, is that everyone's opinions on wrestling should either be uniformly positive, uniformly negative, or equal parts positive and negative on all subjects. So, if the praise for Mid-South in the DVDVR 80's project is not equal to the scorn for Mid-South-related sleaze in the same discussion, or the praise for Kobashi/Kikuchi vs. The Can-Ams doesn't equal the scorn for it's dangerous nature in the same discussion, that's inconsistent. I assume there's inconsistency in this very thread, because no one is praising Jim Ross in the "Jim Ross Is A Grouchy Hateful Vile Human Being" thread, and unless you make Janus-like comments weighing the positives and negatives of a situation evenly in every post you make, that's inconsistent. I think.

[ohtani's jacket]

You seem to be coming at this from the perspective that it's somehow bad to not be an apologist. Is it so hard to accept that some people have squared the concept that something they enjoy watching has a dark side that has done hell of a lot of damage to some of the participants? I mean, surely you haven't gone this long as a fan of wrestling with access to the internets and not heard the Bill Watts stories so I don't know why you seem to think only certain wrestling groups get criticized.

I don't think it's wrong to be non-apologetic, so long as people don't end up spinning as much BS as apologists. Personally I don't think the issue is as clear cut as people make out and yes I have a hard time understanding how people have squared that concept.

[ohtani's jacket]

Where's the inconsistency? I still don't understand.

It comes across like people are picking and choosing their spots to criticise, based on whether they like the wrestling product or not. I'm sure that's not true, but that's how it comes across. I know people here have no illusions about workers & promotions they like, but time and time again people fall back into old habits of pimping workers and matches they like with no regard to their concerns about the business or the participants' welfare... It's confusing. For example, if Bob Roop becomes a pimped worker after the Mid-South, is he a fuck-up for being in the business, a great worker or a fuck-up and a great worker?

[sek69]

I guess it's mainly because most people have the ability to simultaneously enjoy something while realizing that thing may have had a dark side? It's like enjoying a certain style of music while acknowledging your favorite band was coked up and doing degrading things to prostitutes while recording the album. It's not like everything is black and white. The world is shades of grey, and as such you can't expect there not to be things you don't 100% agree with.

 

 

In an attempt to bring things back on topic by way of tying things together, it shouldn't be forgotten that JR got his start in the biz from Bill Watts. Dude probably saw people who thought they knew about the business get locked into a room and get the shit beat out of him. I'd wager that would probably be a main reason he's so dismissive of what gets written to him by people visiting his website.

[Guest onlxn]

I believe OJ may be referring to the "good job, Nigel, way to fuck up your health for a stupid fake sport" rhetoric spouted by several people in the ROH concussion thread, and how the "stupid fake sport" take doesn't jibe with the Mid-South drooling (of which I'm taking part). It seems to me that many of the more aggressive people in that thread haven't been talking about Mid-South, and as such, I don't think the accusation actually applies to many people here.

 

Still, I don't think his general point is wrong. Wrestling fans talking about how stupid and "not worth it" wrestling is is pretty embarrassing, and a fad whose expiration date has come.

[Guest *FH*]

Wrestling fans talking about how stupid and "not worth it" wrestling is is pretty embarrassing, and a fad whose expiration date has come.

Wait, why is an opinion a "fad?" Saying something like that implies you think people who believe that are being disingenuous. Why would someone claim to believe something that they really don't? Just to troll you? Some of us have better things to do, believe me. I think it's "not worth it" for a guy to smash his head into a ringpost 4-5 times or whatever just to please some chanting morons and make a few bucks. Especially when this wrestling thing is supposed to be a work and you're not really supposed to go out of your way to hurt yourself or someone else.

[tomk]

Cute.

 

How about Mid-South Project Apologist B-I-N-G-O?

 

There are approximately 85 wrestlers on the Mid-south set. Without thinking about it much I think 11 of those guys are dead. Kerry VonErich, Buzz Sawyer, and Eddie Gilbert all died in their thrities. Chris Adams, Ray Candy, Terry Gordy, JYD, and Hercules Hernandez all died in their 40s. Dick Murdoch passed in his 50s. Wahoo and Ernie Ladd died in their 60s, Ladd in his late sixties.

 

Dick Slater was sentenced to a year of house arrest after he had stabbed his girlfriend and ODed on oxy. In the late 80s Chris Adams was arrested for beating his wife Toni, several years ago he was arrested for manslaughter due to OD of his then girlfriend, he didn't serve time for the manslaughter because instead he was killed in a drunken brawl.

 

Buddy "Jack" Roberts and Steve Williams both had throat cancer, Hacksaw Jim Duggan suffered with kidney cancer. My guess is that the cancers were mostly caused by drinking and smoking. I do not have any reason to believe that working in LA and being exposed to the carcinogens in Louisiana's Cancer Alley contributed to the cancers. I don't doubt that Hacksaw's steroid use probably made it worse.

 

As one of the extras on the set Good Helmet including a clip of Paul Boesch mourning the recent loss of Gino Hernandez (who had died of coke overdose and who was rumored to be Boesch's illegitamate child). There are no Gino matches on the set but Boesch mourning what was either his son or someone who he took to his heart as a son was something people should see.

 

If you look through the threads about the individual matches, I think Kris, Goodhelmet, myself, and Phil are all pretty honest about the drug problems that affected different members of the roster. I think you'll find us all to be pretty honest about Watts racism. There may be rose colored glasses but there aren't blinders.