The WON HOF 2007 thread

[Dylan Waco]

Honestly Angle is just as bad a pick as Ultimo and for interesting comparisons, Why should Angle be in and not Jericho?

[sek69]

Why is Ultimo such a horrible pick? I mean, sure he's debatable, but I didn't think he was so "OMGWTFBBQ~!" horrible.

 

 

Also, you want to talk about slippery slopes, it's going to be hard to exclude any other promoter after Heyman's been inducted. Especially since Heyman failed so epically at the main goal of promoting, that being the ability to make money. Crockett should make it in as a promoter since he had what was arguably the best in ring product of the 80s and actually made (some) money until he got cockblocked out of the PPV market by Vince. I don't think you can hold the fate of JCP against him considering he didn't fare any better than anyone else who ran against the WWF.

[Loss]

Honestly Angle is just as bad a pick as Ultimo and for interesting comparisons, Why should Angle be in and not Jericho?

I've wondered this too. The only thing Angle has over Jericho is his medal. Jericho has more longevity and was always better in the ring and on interviews than Angle.

[kjh]

I'm just wondering how one would go about justifying the notion that Ultimo should be in but Sasuke shouldn't.

Erm, Ultimo had successful runs in Mexico and America, while Sasuke didn't.

[Guest *FH*]

Honestly Angle is just as bad a pick as Ultimo and for interesting comparisons, Why should Angle be in and not Jericho?

I've wondered this too. The only thing Angle has over Jericho is his medal. Jericho has more longevity and was always better in the ring and on interviews than Angle.

 

Just my opinion, but I enjoy Angle's schtick better than Jericho's "look how witty I am, too cool for the room" act and micwork. Jericho doesn't really have a defined character, just ironic smartassery that got over once and he hung onto it for dear life.

[tomk]

I'm just wondering how one would go about justifying the notion that Ultimo should be in but Sasuke shouldn't.

Erm, Ultimo had successful runs in Mexico and America, while Sasuke didn't.

 

How are you measuring success?

 

But ok then, Great Kabuki.

 

Ultimo was midcard attraction in an indy that drew because it was main evented by Tenryu. And had a fine mid card run in US, and married a Lutheroth relative and could be plugged into a trio anywhere on the card in Mexico.

 

Kabuki main evented in Mexico, US and a major Japanese wrestling promotion.

 

I think its a HUGE mistake to do bar setting. If HHH in then why not Sasaki or Moolah, if Ultimo is in then why not Fujiwara or Sano, if Heyman than why not Don Owen or Jack Pfefer, if HBK then why not Rude or Rodney Anoia, if Angle then why not Tamon Honda or Jericho, etc.

 

There are lots of bad candidates who got in in last couple years. The bar has been set way too low.

 

Really if criteria is is___________ candidate as good as mediocre HOF inductee then there is no reason to keep out Ole Anderson, Gene Anderson, Arn Anderson, Lars or CW.

 

I realize I'm not a voter and don't think anyone here is either, but for purpose of disccusion I think bar should be set higher than"as good as shitty inductee who has no buisness in there in the first place".

[kjh]

I'm just wondering how one would go about justifying the notion that Ultimo should be in but Sasuke shouldn't.

Erm, Ultimo had successful runs in Mexico and America, while Sasuke didn't.

 

How are you measuring success?

I wasn't really measuring it, just pointing out why many HOF voters would see Ultimo as a stronger candidate than Sasuke and how they would justify it in their minds. The key is his run in WCW because it coincided with his peak as a worker and exposed him to many more voters than a more obscure Japanese candidate like Sasuke. I can see voters with vague knowledge of Mexican and Japanese wrestling extrapolating and thinking he was always that good, which wasn't the case.

[S.L.L.]

The only thing Angle has over Jericho is his medal.

Well, keep in mind who's Hall it is.

 

Really, at this point, it kinda feels like it'd be easier to just scrap the WON Hall and start from scratch than try to weigh the worth of various candidates against dudes like Ultimo, Angle, and Heyman. It just doesn't seem to mean anything anymore.

[Phil Schneider]

Ultimo v. Sasuke is actually kind of an interesting comparison, breaking it down

 

I think there work is comparable, solid second tier Japaneese juniors with spots of brilliance and relatively short periods as a top worker. Never as good as Liger or Sano, had days where they were as good as El Samurai

 

Sasuke advantages

 

-Actually main evented his moderately succesful Japaneese indy. Ultimo was a junior atraction in WAR, and was mostly working undercards in Toryumon. Sasuke was the man in MPRO, doesn't mean a ton, but it is in his favor

 

-Political career, he is clearly a joke candidate, but he did win a congressional seat. I think it would closer to the prestige of a State Legislator then a Congressman, but I imagine he has more widespread fame in Japan among non wrestling fans then Ultimo, even as just the stupid embarrasment in the mask.

 

Ultimo advantages

 

-Had runs as interchangeble undercard junior in WCW and as interchangable trios piece in EMLL. Sasuke's runs in ECW and EMLL are much less impressive, although I don't think either his Mexico or US runs mean much.

 

-Training, I think it is inarguable that the Toryuman guys mean more then Hayato Jr. Fujita and Rasse, still I can't see training a bunch of indy guys who have achieved Japaneese cult fame really meaning that much.

 

So I think it comes down to whether you value joke political fame over training sideshow attractions. I could see going either way.

[Jingus]

Really, at this point, it kinda feels like it'd be easier to just scrap the WON Hall and start from scratch than try to weigh the worth of various candidates against dudes like Ultimo, Angle, and Heyman. It just doesn't seem to mean anything anymore.

What did it "mean" in the first place? Were there trophies given out, or an induction ceremony? It seems like this is the world's most glorified version of Meltzer sitting around with a bunch of buddies arguing over which wrestlers were better.

[S.L.L.]

Really, at this point, it kinda feels like it'd be easier to just scrap the WON Hall and start from scratch than try to weigh the worth of various candidates against dudes like Ultimo, Angle, and Heyman. It just doesn't seem to mean anything anymore.

What did it "mean" in the first place? Were there trophies given out, or an induction ceremony? It seems like this is the world's most glorified version of Meltzer sitting around with a bunch of buddies arguing over which wrestlers were better.

 

Basically, yeah. It was just fun wrestling discussion organized into a certain form. Or it least it was supposed to be. Dave is a real mark for lists, and this just sort of became that pretty quickly. Actually, it was pretty much that from the outset. The original class was hand-picked by Dave, JDW (who obviously could give you a more enlightened view of this than I myself), and someone else who's name slips my mind (Yohe?), during a flight to Japan from names in the Gong 1000 book. Like any sort of list or award, it would seem like the main value is the discussion it generates, but Dave never seemed real interested in having any of that, so it really is just a list.

[sek69]

Random thought: Between the runs as Masked Superstar and Ax from Demolition, couldn't there be a case made for Bill Eadie? He was a pretty good draw as the Superstar, and even though Demolition started off as a Road Warriors rip off, they ended up being the longest reigning WWF tag champions ever.

[Loss]

I don't think a WWF tag team is going to help the case of any nominee, simply because the company has historically pushed it like a cruiserweight division and they didn't headline.

[Al]

Random thought: Between the runs as Masked Superstar and Ax from Demolition, couldn't there be a case made for Bill Eadie? He was a pretty good draw as the Superstar, and even though Demolition started off as a Road Warriors rip off, they ended up being the longest reigning WWF tag champions ever.

Nah. There's just too many guys "like" Bill Eadie. Guys who were successful in two ventures, drew well here or there, etc. Same with Bill Murdoch. It's not that he wasn't a great worker. But there are maybe a hundred wrestlers who come close to his credentials, and where do you draw the line?

[Bix]

Bill Murdoch?

 

There are not a hundred Dick Murdochs.

[Jingus]

Bill Murdoch?

Yeah, he tagged up with Lanny Poffoff* and briefly feuded with Tricky Steamboat.

 

 

 

 

*I actually ran into a backyarder once (going by the most perfect yardtard name ever, "Kid Extreme") who claimed to have been trained by Leaping Lanny Poffoff. Let's just say he got one tryout match, his legit opponent stole his lunch money and then rammed it back up his peehole, and he was never heard of again.

[kjh]

Bruce Mitchell is voting for The Masked Assassins, Ivan Koloff, Konnan, The Midnight Express, Rey Mysterio, The Rock, The Steiner Brothers, Jim Crockett Jr. and Jesse Ventura this year.

[Cox]

It's odd that Mitchell is voting for the Midnights and the Steiners but not the Rock 'n' Roll, as I'd think somebody who lived in North Carolina during the Rock 'n' Roll's heyday would view them as much stronger candidates, since as a tag team, they were much more of a main event act than the Midnights or the Steiners ever were, and Morton is arguably a better worker than all (a case could be made for Eaton over Morton).

[tomk]

Wasn't Mitchell part of the Charlotte rudo peanut gallery?

 

There is a rudo bias among your smark hardcores.

 

Him voting for MX over RnR isn't surprising.

 

I assume him voting for Steiners has more to do with having the most superficial understanding of what they meant internationally.

[sek69]

The more I hear people debate this, the more I think that the WON HOF has ridiculously high standards. After you get past the Austin/Hogan/Flair/Rock level, you can pretty much make a case against anyone else. The criteria is just vague enough that anyone who doesn't make the cut has enough doubt so you can't really call anyone out on it.

 

Hell, at least with the WWE HOF you know the criteria is "whoever the hell Vince wants in" so you know who has a chance and who doesn't.

[kjh]

Bruce's explanations for his decisions regarding the MX, RnRs and Steiners:

 

* Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey & Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane): The Midnight Express are the best tag team of the last 24 years. They were better in the ring at their peak than any team that followed all these years later. They were the top of huge drawing programs with Bill Watts and the Junkyard Dog in Mid-South and The Rock & Roll express in Jim Crockett Promotions. Also, Jim Cornette shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame alone.

 

Rock & Roll Express: Their years as a top act weren't that many and they worked a very patterned style. No.

 

* Steiner Brothers: There were a great strong-style team internationally for many years. Yeah, they get in, because their in-ring work pulls up any problem in the other two criteria.

[Loss]

That's a pretty baffling point of view.

[Bix]

His reasons for excluding the R&R fits the Steiners pretty well.

[Loss]

The Steiners formed in '89, and didn't really get over big until later in the year when they named the Frankensteiner and won the tag titles. They were big in 1990, which was probably their peak year, but still not Hall of Fame-level big, and in 1991, the injuries started taking their toll and the team was never the same again. They had some brief good runs from 1991-1995, but they were sporadic and never really sustained all that long. That's also when Scott Steiner got his arm injury and was never the same again. Everyone knows they were a mess under Watts, and their WWF run didn't really have any impact. When they came back to WCW in 1996, they were barely over, and the program with Hall and Nash was so bad that it killed them as a team for good.

 

There are some cool stories with them. When Woman turned on them to form Doom, they wanted Scott to be on TV with a black eye from being attacked in the limo. Scott's masculinity was threatened by the idea of wearing makeup, so he had his brother punch him in the eye repeatedly until it swelled shut.

[S.L.L.]

* Steiner Brothers: There were a great strong-style team internationally for many years.

There are not enough L's and O's in the world to place next to each other to express how I feel.