Bret Hart vs Rey Mysterio

[Loss]

I see a pretty strong case in both directions.

[Childs]

This feels more like I'm picking between styles than judging the wrestlers, who were both close to the best at what they did. So I voted for Rey, but I'm sure I would have picked Bret at other points in my fandom. I do think Rey's career is weightier at this point, so you'd have to rate Bret's peak significantly better to go with him. 

[El Dragon]

Feels like the biggest differential here is consistency of high end TV work. Both have there high ends, and I could even argue Bret’s best stuff is better and it not feel wrong, but Rey was consistently able to get entertaining stuff with guys I never really think about, and Bret was too hit and miss for me to rank there. So yeah, it’s Rey for me. He was my 1 last time, and while he will surely not be my 1 this time, he’s still a top 20 lock and Bret isn’t.

[Boss Rock]

Pretty much agree with El Dragon. Rey was more consistent, is a better babyface, and wins almost any volume argument.

[Rah]

I don't want to sound antagonistic, but I'd love to see a case being made for Bret being better. 

 

[cad]

8 hours ago, Rah said:

I don't want to sound antagonistic, but I'd love to see a case being made for Bret being better.

Not to get too dark, but I can't recall any Bret Hart matches that resulted in someone dying.

The arguments for Rey's case always seem quantity based. It's great that he's the best WWE TV match worker of all time, but is that such a great thing to be? When I see someone called the best squash match worker of all time or whatever it always sounds like a backhanded compliment. Best WWE TV match worker is a step up from that, but if they were capable of dropping classics then you'd be talking about the classics. Halloween Havoc, classic. After that...maybe I need to rewatch the Psicosis match from AAA? There just aren't that many Rey matches that have entered into legend.

The one that often gets cited as Rey's best TV match is the one with Eddy from 2005. I don't know if that's a level above Bret vs Savage, Bret vs 123 Kid, or Bret vs washed up nobody can get anything out of him anymore Bobby Backlund. If you're making a list of TV matches, Rey's list is going to run away with it, but Bret's could hang in there for a little bit, when it's best vs best.

[strobogo]

By virtue of longevity, style, and position on the card, Rey has way more high quality TV matches than Bret over the years. It's not really particularly fair, because Rey existed in companies and in a position on the card where he could go out and show out every week for 20 years, and where good matches for the sake of good matches to take up TV time was far more prevalent than in Bret's run. There are multiple years where Rey has as many or more TV matches in a single year than Bret had in total of 1993-1996 (and even that is skewed to a number of Euro only shows). 

Not only is this unfair in a style sense, but unfair comparison just based on their positions on the card and roles they played. 

[Tetsujin]

Bret's absolute best demolishes Rey's absolute best. Rey still have some really great matches and he can compete against almost anybody in that regard, but Bret is one of the few guys that have too many absolute classics in my eyes (the Owen matches, the two first Austin matches, the Ironman with HBK, the Piper match, the Diesel match, the KOTR Mr Perfect match...). He also have great matches against a lot of guys, and he was able to bring the best out of much lesser opponents. He is just like Rey in that regard, althought I guess Rey did it more often because of his crazy longevity. Both are all time great bumpers and overall sellers to me, and while Rey's offense was revolutionary and crazy good, Bret's mastery of the bassics and how good he was at looking stiff while absolutely not being stiff at all, kinda gives him the edge for me in the offense category.

Man, this is hard. I guess Rey, because of his insane volume and consistency, and while Bret's 1992-97 is insane, even in that run you can find some kinda dissapointing matches and/or stupid WWE booking ruining potential great bouts. I have pretty clear Bret's best day is better than Rey's best day, but overall Rey has the strongest and more enjoyable career. He also delivered in a big way in different promotions and contexts, while Bret's case is absolutely 100% his WWE main eventer run.

[DMJ]

I went with Rey, though I'm a bigger-than-many Bret fan and totally agree that Bret's best matches are better than Rey's best matches. 

To me, it might come down to Rey Mysterio being in so many conversations - and maybe even winning some if not all the conversations - of being the best babyface of all time, the best cruiserweight of all time, the best WWE TV worker of all time, the most influential worker of the 90s, etc. 

With Bret, you're  talking about an absolute master of the craft but I'm not sure he really broke the mold to the same degree Rey did. He was still a 6-foot, 200+ pounds, and did headlocks and suplexes. He may not have been the size of Warrior or Hogan, but he was still what a wrestler was. He was the best at it, but he wasn't some 100% new thing.

When Rey Mysterio showed up in WCW, he was a true revelation - way more than Ultimo Dragon or Psicosis or Dean Malenko or whoever else. Sure, people who knew about ECW or Mexican or Japanese wrestling had seen high-flyers, including Rey, before, but to people like me - who were 11-12 years old and only knew WWE and WCW - Rey Mysterio was unbelievable. I mean, I had read in PWI magazines about what international wrestling was, but no words had me prepared for seeing what Rey did on Nitro in 96'. And you can go back and watch those matches and they're still absurdly amazing 25 years later even when we now see so, so many guys who can do those same moves or even more complicated moves. 

And then, in WWE, while his booking was imperfect, I do think they did a much better job of utilizing him as an actual part of the "heavyweight" roster than WCW ever did. It took them awhile to get there, but eventually, he did have great matches with all sorts of wrestlers, many times pulling out career-best matches from oafs and monsters that would otherwise bore the crowd to tears. Bret had the same gift, but while Bret only had to wrestle Kane (Isaac Yankem) on PPV one time (and maybe a TV match? Maybe a couple house shows?), I feel like Mysterio probably had to turn that shit to gold a hundred times on TV, PPV, and house shows over the years. Call it the curse of longevity, but its another point to Rey. And not just with Kane either, but with basically every big man that needed the rub of pulverizing an undersized babyface. And yet Mysterio never lost his overness or appeal no matter how many people crushed him over the years. It doesn't matter in the context of this conversation, but could you imagine Bret being willing to do the number of jobs that Rey did over the years? And Bret doesn't even have a bad reputation for that. Its just that Rey was undoubtedly even more giving to far more wrestlers, most of whom shouldn't have even been lacing his boots. 

I also think this is an interesting choice because Bret has been so openly complimentary towards Rey, often mentioning him as a guy he wish he would've worked with right alongside Angle and Cena. I don't think Bret ranks that many people as better than himself, but I'd be curious if even the Hitman would have to admit that Rey is right there next to him.

[ohtani's jacket]

If you're a Bret fan, then the one area where Rey can't beat him is the image of Bret as a heavyweight champ. I know they gave Rey a run with the belt. It was a nice moment and all, but not as meaningful as Bret's run. Bret was a trail blazer. A guy who showed you could come up through the ranks -- as a tag wrestler and an IC title level guy -- and become a world champion. Everyone who came afterward followed Bret's path. Rey is an amazing babyface and a great television worker, and I admire the way he adjusted to the WWE style and built an entire second career there. He definitely has Bret beat for volume. Best vs. best would be an interesting exercise, but eventually Bret would run out of matches. I can see an argument for Bret's most famous matches being better than Rey's, but the flipside to the advantage Rey has of working the modern TV style is that Bret had far greater opportunities to craft memorable matches given how crap the majority of the wrestling was. I love Bret vs. Owen to death, but would it have stood out as much if the WWF had produced the quality of wrestling that WCW did pre-Hogan? I always feel like Bret could have done more -- better matches in the territories, some better WWF matches, better WCW matches -- but I can't say the same about Mysterio. I prefer Bret as a wrestler and character, but I don't think Rey's career or output can be denied. Rey takes this. 

[PhilTLL]

On 7/7/2021 at 12:30 PM, cad said:

The one that often gets cited as Rey's best TV match is the one with Eddy from 2005. I don't know if that's a level above Bret vs Savage, Bret vs 123 Kid, or Bret vs washed up nobody can get anything out of him anymore Bobby Backlund. If you're making a list of TV matches, Rey's list is going to run away with it, but Bret's could hang in there for a little bit, when it's best vs best.

Bret had a whole series in 1989 against Perfect on TV. The matches from MSG, Boston, and Toronto in the spring and summer which one may count as house show work were very good draws, but the one on PTW in November was definitely a TV match, was excellent, and had a real finish. Way back when in the first-ever DVDVR '80s poll, it finished in the top 10. I think that poll would be a lot different these days, but that match would still do fine.

There's also a Foundation/Rockers match from MSG 11/25/89 that Superstar Sleeze called "the most underrated match in WWF history."  I haven't watched that in a while but I remember enjoying it.

[Justtxyank]

On 8/11/2021 at 8:33 PM, ohtani's jacket said:

If you're a Bret fan, then the one area where Rey can't beat him is the image of Bret as a heavyweight champ. I know they gave Rey a run with the belt. It was a nice moment and all, but not as meaningful as Bret's run. Bret was a trail blazer. A guy who showed you could come up through the ranks -- as a tag wrestler and an IC title level guy -- and become a world champion. Everyone who came afterward followed Bret's path. Rey is an amazing babyface and a great television worker, and I admire the way he adjusted to the WWE style and built an entire second career there. He definitely has Bret beat for volume. Best vs. best would be an interesting exercise, but eventually Bret would run out of matches. I can see an argument for Bret's most famous matches being better than Rey's, but the flipside to the advantage Rey has of working the modern TV style is that Bret had far greater opportunities to craft memorable matches given how crap the majority of the wrestling was. I love Bret vs. Owen to death, but would it have stood out as much if the WWF had produced the quality of wrestling that WCW did pre-Hogan? I always feel like Bret could have done more -- better matches in the territories, some better WWF matches, better WCW matches -- but I can't say the same about Mysterio. I prefer Bret as a wrestler and character, but I don't think Rey's career or output can be denied. Rey takes this. 

If you’ve heard the old DiMaggio was built for Fenway and Ted for Yankee Stadium story then you’ll get this…

Ive always thought Sting and Bret were in the wrong promotion. Bret in WCW turning out workrate classics with Flair, Hansen, Windham, Luger, Arn, Rude, Zybyszko, Eaton, Vader, etc in early to mid 90s while Sting was being the flamboyant Hogan successor who could work but was mostly about being flashy and charismatic. I know they both did great work where they were and had great careers, but I think they’d both be better flipped.