Stock Rising/Stock Falling

[brockobama]

4 hours ago, Ma Stump Puller said:

Osamu Nishimura: Has he EVER had a bad match that was down to him?

I'll say that the IWGP title match with Sasaki is really bad, maybe the worst of its era, because Nishimura tries so hard to leave his own wheelhouse and adapt to a faster paced, high impact style with tepid, repetitive results. Still, Nishimura rules and I'll wholeheartedly support anyone making a spot for him on their list.

And yeah Mike Awesome is so overrated. Was gifted big matches with some of the greatest bump dummies ever and looked like a fraction of the man in every other match without them. No dawg in him.

[Reel]

On 9/22/2022 at 11:03 PM, Microstatistics said:

El Dandy: The biggest disappointment for me this time around. His brawling and matwork are merely adequate and his big matches underdeliver.

Dandy is a stock up for me. If you're watching Lucha on youtube and just let the autoplay go, you'll end up on some grainy-ass trios match, and somebody will do something awesome, and 90% of the time, its El Dandy. 

[Ma Stump Puller]

13 hours ago, brockobama said:

I'll say that the IWGP title match with Sasaki is really bad, maybe the worst of its era, because Nishimura tries so hard to leave his own wheelhouse and adapt to a faster paced, high impact style with tepid, repetitive results. Still, Nishimura rules and I'll wholeheartedly support anyone making a spot for him on their list.

And yeah Mike Awesome is so overrated. Was gifted big matches with some of the greatest bump dummies ever and looked like a fraction of the man in every other match without them. No dawg in him.

Noted, I'll inevitably have to check out that and see how it stands up. That said he's someone who just couldn't not be on the list given the crazy amount of solid outings he has. I remember he even made the 60+ year old Funks look good in a 20 minute match a while back, which was bonkers. 

And yeah Awesome's one of those guys that you watch some minutes of highlights and think he's just great, but then you actually realise that's mostly because he was with people generous enough to take his dangerous shit and make it look golden. Watching him nervously work a leg with the lightest heel hook straight for about 3 minutes is the stuff that tends to get overlooked lol.

 

 

[Clayton Jones]

I'll echo the Kojima stock rising sentiment. Someone I was admittedly way off the mark on back in the mid 2000s and now will never pass over a chance to watch no matter what the era. Although I have seen way too little of the Tenzan team for its historical significance, I imagine that'll be a big factor determining how high I can justify going on Kozy.

[elliott]

On 5/15/2022 at 3:16 AM, elliott said:

Somehow its been 6 months since we last did this. Figured with a year down it might be time for a check in. Who are some stock rising/falling folks for you at this point?

 

6 Month check in for Stock Rising/Falling.

Stock Rising:

Bruno, Bruno, Bruno and more Bruno - I've watched basically all of the available Bruno Sammartino on tape and I'd say he's a top 50 lock and closer to the top 20 than to 50. An awesome Ace and then his post-prime run is great too. Great selling, tremendous comebacks. Some of the best feuds of all time vs Graham, Patera, Larry Z and later Piper & Savage. 

Stooging Strongman  - This is a category of wrestler I've come to love. Guys who are bodybuilder/weight lifter types who do lots of flexing and posing but then when the babyface makes a comeback they stooge around, beg off and make themselves look as foolish as possible but then are able to maintain enough credibility that if they snatch you in a bear hug or a full nelson, its a devastating move...but then if they need to they'll just choke someone out or use a foreign object or run off to the back to avoid any paybacks. . Austin Idol, Superstar Graham, and Ken Patera are the masters of this.  

Shinjiro Ohtani - I've watched the first couple of years of Zero-1 and Ohtani is absolutely fantastic working with a variety of opponents and looking good against everyone. I've always thought he was the best Junior after Liger from his generation, but it looks like his transition to being a heavyweight is better than I initially remembered at the time and now its become a case of "When does this guy fall off because its not before 2002?"

Some Juniors Heavyweights - Two guys I've looked at and really enjoyed and want to make a spot for on my final list are Masao Orihara and Mens Teioh. Orihara is a case of a guy with really great variety. He is an awesome underdog getting smashed against bigger guys, he's an awesome intense prick pushing babyfaces around. He has a juniors Greatest Match Ever candidate with baby Ohtani. Great flyer. Great brawler. Can sell and do traditional style old school tag matches based around limbwork & cutting the ring off. Really someone who could do anything. 

Teioh is like a dream come true. THis guy is an amazing throwback with a million neat tricks thrown into very diverse settings like the M-Pro 10 man tags or later insane death matches.  Works as well with Katsumi Usuda as he does with Winger. The list of junior heavyweights from his generation I'd put ahead of him is really small. 

 

Stock Falling: 

I'm keeping this positive. 

[Tetsujin]

Every time I come back to Devil Masami I find new stuff of hers that I fall absolutely in love with and is very different from everything else I've seen of her, while still keeping her essence as a larger than life wrestling character. She was a top 100 lock, then a top 50, and now I even think she might end veeery close to my top 10. Still not a #1 contender, but that's only because her truly all time level match I've seen is the 85 Chigusa title match (which is fucking revolutionary so there's that). Her other more acclaimed matches (Jaguar, Nakano, Kandori) aren't near that level... But if I find a couple more excellent matches that can compete with anyone's best, as is the Chiggy match, I would have to consider her for my top spot because she is just so awesome at everything she does in a wrestling ring. And for a good amount of years, as well.

[elliott]

6 hours ago, Tetsujin said:

Every time I come back to Devil Masami I find new stuff of hers that I fall absolutely in love with and is very different from everything else I've seen of her, while still keeping her essence as a larger than life wrestling character. She was a top 100 lock, then a top 50, and now I even think she might end veeery close to my top 10. Still not a #1 contender, but that's only because her truly all time level match I've seen is the 85 Chigusa title match (which is fucking revolutionary so there's that). Her other more acclaimed matches (Jaguar, Nakano, Kandori) aren't near that level... But if I find a couple more excellent matches that can compete with anyone's best, as is the Chiggy match, I would have to consider her for my top spot because she is just so awesome at everything she does in a wrestling ring. And for a good amount of years, as well.

Hell yeah. 

I'm a high voter on the Nakano match from 93. I think it's a masterpiece. My under the radar favorite is vs Mayumi Ozaki from 12/93. One of the more harrowing matches with an insane finish. I have Devil locked in the top 10. 

[Ma Stump Puller]

Time for a middle of 2023 update!

Rising:

Kawada: Rewatching AJPW in 2000, Kawada is the MVP both before and after the Exodus. You really get the feeling that he's just inching to actually work, and when he gets the chance to be the Ace he's always wanted to be his motivation and work goes right though the roof. Tenryu series? Fantastic. Random Sasaki crossover the DAY after going nearly 30 minutes with Steve Williams and Tenryu? Easy. Getting actual good matches out of a dire roster/ one of the worst RWTL's ever? Done and done. Fuchi as well, but Kawada was just dominating with all of this newfound freedom on his hands.

Keita Yano: Still on his amazing run in Tenryu Project, in this case showing that he can work a more regular pace of matches with a wild assortment of characters. Dude was always great but this run has really hammered down just how strong his technical work can be outside of his crazy wheelhouse. I still think his greatest hits were in Wallabee Pro, that's far from a insult though. He'd honestly already have a GWE case without these last few years, at this point I think it's undeniable.  

Hikaru Sato: His Jr Heavyweight run has been all killer and no filler, every defence has been remarkable in one way or another. His AJPW stuff less so but that's par for the course for that company. You can click on nearly every match he's done in the last few years and find something worth mentioning with his performances, he's that good at what he does. Beastly on the mat and his strikes are still full of murderous intent.

Command Bolshoi: it's such a shame she got into her prime during the major decline of Joshi because she was pretty stellar in nearly everything I've found of her. Comedy Bolshoi is hit and miss, Navarro-fan Bolshoi is one of the slickest lucha-mat wizards I've ever had the pleasure of seeing. Hoping as more time goes forward we get more and more of her 2000's work because she's super enjoyable when her matches aren't being clipped to shit.

Akebono: Akebono's got a little bit of a resurgence in recent times as people have went back and actually looked at his wealth of work and hey, even I've been impressed....slightly. His matches generally are one-note but he's one of those guys who's basically had matches with every major Japanese talent of the last 20 years so there's a lot of entertaining matches out there to enjoy. I'm still not convinced he's great though. 

 

Down:

I don't really like being negative on these bits and to be honest, there's not any that have massively fallen down on my viewing because I'm not really hunting for bad matches. 

Emi Sakura: by proxy because every match involving a trainee of hers I've seen in the last two months have had them be tangibly the worst element in them. It's weird because this was even when she was actually quite good, for some reason it just never rubbed off on anyone she tried training up. One wonders if her deal is the same as Dory Funk.....

Masakatsu Funaki: mostly due to his later work where he's just taking paychecks, especially his W-1 stuff which is just garbage mostly. Watched him recently on a RJPW show and man he's just dull as anything. They gave him Bobby Roode, Takayama and Otani, all of these are stinkers. The worst part is that he can still go quite well. 

Johnny Smith: I expected him to really step up for my AJPW 2000 viewing and.....yeah he just didn't do a whole lot. Bar the Fujiwara match (it's a crime that's cut as badly as it is) nothing really stands out and despite tagging with Kea he just seems like a complete afterthought that didn't seem that keen on going out of his comfort zone in matches, sticking to the same song and dance like he'd done for the whole of the 90's. 

 

 

 

[fxnj]

5 hours ago, Ma Stump Puller said:

Masakatsu Funaki: mostly due to his later work where he's just taking paychecks, especially his W-1 stuff which is just garbage mostly. Watched him recently on a RJPW show and man he's just dull as anything. They gave him Bobby Roode, Takayama and Otani, all of these are stinkers. The worst part is that he can still go quite well. 

Lines up pretty well with my experience digging for hidden gems from him. At his best, he looks like one of the best, but to find that stuff you're gonna be sifting through so many disappointing matches. Maybe the ultimate peak vs. consistency candidate.

[Ma Stump Puller]

15 hours ago, fxnj said:

Lines up pretty well with my experience digging for hidden gems from him. At his best, he looks like one of the best, but to find that stuff you're gonna be sifting through so many disappointing matches. Maybe the ultimate peak vs. consistency candidate.

The only real thing I can suggest is to check out as much of his AJPW stuff as possible because that's basically where most of his best pro-style matches come from, namely due to a mix of motivation and great opponents. Otherwise it's just a rough gamble.

 

[ohtani's jacket]

I am really down on Kawada at the moment. I want him to disappear and take Minoru Suzuki with him. I am high on the immortal Tenzan and Randy Orton, though I think Triple H is about to fuck him up. 

[Matt D]

I need @ohtani's jacket and @elliott to record an anti-Kawada podcast.

[elliott]

That could be like a ten part series. 

[Tetsujin]

Randy Orton is a guy I can (almost) definitely see making my list, and that's something some years ago I wouldn't have dare to say. Early prodigy vibes with all time great selling and some really early top tier performances (with the Foley masterpiece as the peak of his first run). Up until 2010 he's extremely consistent, and later on he becomes one of the most solid tv workers on WWE. We all know his 2011 IS great, and it was in a top babyface position that is not his cup of tea, but managed to shine anyway. His 2012 isn't as good, but he carries fucking KANE to some or his best matches ever. His Authority run, although booking wise sucks, is wonderful in ring and not only with Bryan, you can add guys like old RVD, Cesaro, Cena, Rollins, the first great singles match of Reigns of course... But then he continues. The Wyatt Family stuff was great until the infamous WM match, but you have thing like vs AJ and vs Harper. One of the best guys to watch on the no crowds era. Add RKBro to the mix. Guy is amazing and has as impressive longevity and consistency as anyone, a perfect input candidate with great to excellent matches here and there as well.

[ohtani's jacket]

On 7/22/2023 at 8:25 AM, Matt D said:

I need @ohtani's jacket and @elliott to record an anti-Kawada podcast.

I don't hate everything about Kawada. I just have little use for him after '97-98 unless he's having matches against Tenryu, Mutoh, and possibly in MUGA against Nishimura. . 

[Tetsujin]

Recently, I've been on a LA Park mood. He's quickly becoming my second favourite luchador of all time (after Santito) and he might have a chance at my top 25, because every match I'm seeing of him is just an unbelievable spectacle that no one else provides. He takes one of my very least favourite styles of wrestling (overbooked lucha brawls) and turn them into total blasts thanks to his larger than life aura, his intense offense and clever selling, and his surprising athleticism.

On the other hand, while still a super fan and right now he's still ranking pretty god damn high, Stan Hansen has fallen out of my top 10 for the first time since last GWE more or less. I'm realizing he has more dissappointing matches than I thought, specially in the 80s and mostly against other all timers who he never connected with, sadly. He's still top 15 though, so no biggie, but he has lost some points for me in the consistency talk (at least from an output perspective), which was a pretty big part of his case before.

[Grimmas]

Nanae Takahashi, it's 2024 and she's still having great matches 25 plus years into her career. I know a lot of her prime was in the dark ages of Joshi, but there is amazing performances through out that too if you dig.

To me, when she's on, she's all time great. Sometimes she is just fine, but damn a great passion Nanae match is the best.

[benj]

Went through the 2016 list, highlighted some things of interest. 2026 is going to be very different for a variety of reasons.

557) Will Ospreay (1 pt, 1 ballot, 100.00 avg, high: 100 - Timothy Buechner, 2006: unranked)

461) Jim Cornette (40 pts, 2 ballots, 81.00 avg, high: 63 - anonymous, 2006: unranked)

390) Tetsuya Naito (95 pts, 3 ballots, 69.30 avg, high: 43 - anonymous, 2006: unranked)

327) Zack Sabre Jr. (161 pts, 10 ballots, 84.90 avg, high: 61 - Alan Counihan, 2006: unranked)

311) Eddie Kingston (189 pts, 5 ballots, 63.20 avg, high: 13 - anonymous, 2006: unranked)

275) Dean Ambrose (270 pts, 8 ballots, 67.25 avg, high: 13 - Mando>Eddie, 2006: unranked)

270) Ricochet (275 pts, 13 ballots, 79.85 avg, high: 46 - jackwebb, 2006: unranked)

259) Kenny Omega (298 pts, 8 ballots, 63.75 avg, high: 20 - Mando>Eddie, 2006: unranked)

209) Tomohiro Ishii (557 points, 16 ballots, 66.19 avg, high: 20 - Alan Counihan, 2006: unranked)

206) Kota Ibushi (592 points, 20 ballots, 71.40 avg, high: 14 - The Great Puma; 2006: unranked)

128) Minoru Suzuki (1505 points, 37 ballots, 60.54 avg, high: 4 - anonymous, 2006: honorable mention)

102) Christian (2220 points, 56 ballots, 61.36 avg, high: 17 - ShittyLittleBoots, 2006: unranked)

51) Andre The Giant (4971 points, 105 ballots, 53.81 avg, high: 5 - Mando>Eddie, 2006: 164)

47) Brock Lesnar (5265 points, 110 ballots, 53.32 avg, high: 2 - Scott Bernard, 2006: 143)

46) CM Punk (5334 points, 105 ballots, 50.22 avg, high: 7 - jpchicago23, 2006: 425)

39) AJ Styles (5759 points, 109 ballots, 48.20 avg, high: 6 - Hasan Mulla, 2006: 301)

38) Mick Foley (6003 points, 121 ballots, 51.44 avg, high: 5 - Beast, 2006: 70)

32) Dustin Rhodes (6861 points, 124 ballots, 45.69 avg, high: 7 - jackwebb, 2006: 137)

31) Shawn Michaels (7187 points, 111 ballots, 38.11 avg, high: 1 - Jimmy Redman & ElHijodeGorgeousGeorge)

30) John Cena (7502 points, 126 ballots, 41.70 avg, high: 3 – James Derbyshire, 2006: unranked)

29) El Hijo del Santo (7579 points, 95 ballots, 22.52 avg, high: 1 – Jetlag, 2006: 20)

7) Rey Mysterio Jr. (11910 points, 146 ballots, 20.92 avg, high: 1 – El Dragon, Zero & donsem43, 2006: 22)

5) Daniel Bryan (12302 points, 142 ballots, 17.63 avg, high: 1 – Danny Kichler, @jamesie_2015, ShittyLittleBoots, James Derbyshire, Venegas, Dan Rice, Quentin Skinner, Mrzfn & anonymous, 2006: 117)

[Ricky Jackson]

Flair won't sniff #1 this time as well

[Shrike02]

23 hours ago, Ricky Jackson said:

Flair won't sniff #1 this time as well

I'll predict Roddy Piper will rank higher than last time if enough voters examine his new footage.

[Ricky Jackson]

I just want Bruno to make the top 100

[Reel]

A lot depends on the demographics of the voters come 2026, but I'd imagine a lot of the post-2016 NJPW guys are gonna take a big jump, and probably at the cost of a lot of the 80s and less mainstream 90s candidates. 

[Tetsujin]

I think it's pretty safe to say that Okada, Omega, Ospreay, Ishii and maybe Shibata, Suzuki and Naito are going to make it, yeah. Tanahashi should end much higher too, although that isn't a complaint by any means (neither was the previous statement thought, currently I'm voting for 4 of those 7 guys I named). Funnily enough, Nakamura will not rank this time, for obvious reasons.

Bryan will take the #1 this time, and maybe Cena gets close enough if his retirement tour delivers.

I'm looking forward for more Hijo del Santo footage to be discovered. If this recent trend continues, and the stuff that appears is as good as it's bee until now, he might end even higher than last time (I would LOVE a top 10 placement).