WWE TV 11/22 - 11/28 LeBron James is a King's Road Style wrestler

[DMJ]

At this point, I think actually seeing someone - whether its a Sheamus, Ricochet, or even a *puke in my mouth* Austin Theory - go in and destroy some unlucky schmuck would be more entertaining than the usual fare. (And, I hate to say it, this would be especially useful for a guy like Theory as I see absolutely nothing in him. Maybe if he was allowed to showcase all his offense and be in full control of a match, not doing back-and-forth but just dazzling me with cool moves and character shtick, I'd see him as more than a CAW with a lame gimmick that was done better by Tyler Breeze.) 

I mean, the ratings are what they are and they've clearly stopped trying to even shoot for the ceiling. They might as well find out the floor. My guess is that a show that was 50% jobber squashes would maybe go down a negligible amount of viewers if at all. And, in the long term, it would allow them to create stars that people actually want to see. I mean, at this point, Belair has been on the main roster for what? 2 years? Save for a match with Asuka, I think we're officially out of big matches that I want to see her in and I'm as big a Belair fan as anyone.  In 2 years, we've seen her face all the Horsewomen and because Ripley and Baszler were bigger deals in NXT anyway, its not like rematches with them would feel any bigger than they did there. 

Countless wrestlers have talked about it over the years but it remains true today. The old school method of building Wrestler A through squash matches and Wrestler B through squash matches and setting them on a collision course has just been completely forgotten for no reason at all. 

[El-P]

30 minutes ago, DMJ said:

The old school method of building Wrestler A through squash matches and Wrestler B through squash matches and setting them on a collision course has just been completely forgotten for no reason at all. 

Actually, there have been plenty of good reasons why this doesn't exist anymore. The model was tired and died in the 90's during US pro-wrestling nadir when the audience did not want to see that boring shit anymore. Nitro changed the format of the show. Pro-wrestling became less and less of a house-show model and more and more of a TV model (and exclusively one today). And squash matches are still used for some specific people, like Jade Cargill in AEW (because she's green as grass and his portrayed as a monster, although one could argue she won't get better working that style for too long) and of course, Goldy in 98. But building a rivalry using two guys doing squash matches and eventually colliding on PPV, yeah, that was good in 1989 when the audience did not know better and the goal was to sell house-show tickets and PPV's. Pro-wrestling weekly TV shows back then were basically commercials, like Transformers and such.

Of course the issue with WWE is not that they need squash matches, it's that they are completely inept at booking.

[sek69]

Squash matches still have their purpose even in today's wrestling. They're still the best way to build someone up to be a monster, and it's still a good way to showcase someone new. 

Also you don't have to do short squashes either, that's the value of having someone like QT where he can give you a good match and there's nothing lost by jobbing him out. Have him make the person you want to be a star look like a million bucks and off you go. 

WWE's biggest flaw is they are so addicted to 50/50 booking to the point that even if they end up ass-backwards-ing their way into someone getting over, they can't wait to beat them. It's not like WWE doesn't have a bunch of guys who can be beat regularly to serve this purpose either, it's just that for whatever reason they won't do it. 

[DMJ]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree about the "That's so 1989" thinking.

The younger audience is digesting content - like TikTok - with runtimes of less than a minute. I think there's plenty of fans, especially younger fans, who would get behind an "all killer - no filler" match where someone awesome, like a Keith Lee but also a Ricochet, just bulldozed some loser. 

Its also an "everything old is new again" scenario. 

I'm not saying that the whole show needs to be built around squash matches, but jeez, for newcomers like Karrion Kross, going 10+ minutes with Jeff Hardy did absolutely nothing that a vignette + a squash match couldn't have done. I know, for me, the Xia Li comic book vignette had me much more curious about this new character than I would've been if she just debuted and a had a 50/50 match with Natalya.
 

The idea that its a TV show and not designed with a "house show" mindset would also seem, to me, to be a reason why they should be upping the variety and increasing the number of segments per show. For example, I know that 20+ minute promo segments aren't always good (for example, any time Seth Rollins and the Authority opened RAW), but that CM Punk/MJF segment had me much more engaged than the subsequent Punk/Marshall match on AEW. In WWE, there are guys and gals that can do a 10 minute promo and make it feel special. There are guys and gals that would be better served with squash matches. There are guys and gals that are better served in competitive multi-segment matches. I think we're splitting hairs a little when ultimately we all agree that the WWE booking/production is just outright awful, but to dismiss squash matches as being passe seems silly to me when, Goldberg chants aside, there was a time not too long ago when Ryback was actually kinda super over as a babyface. 

[El-P]

There's a huge difference between "Build two guys with squash matches and at some point get them together to collide", which is absolutely 1989 thinking, and what we're actually all talking about with Jade Cargill or the fact Kross should absolutely have squashed some jabronies for a few weeks to make him look impressive or the fact there's actually plenty of competitive JTTS matches on AEW TV (I actually thought Punk vs Marshall was way too long and way too competitive, so there). Yes, squashes matches have absolutely a use to build someone up especially if he/she is supposed to be a monster, but they are only a step in building someone, not the whole process. And can only work in very specific cases.

Tik-tok is great to showcase cool sequences I guess. 

Gotta say, Goldy always bored me. I never thought he was very compelling, especially on rewatch, and he was lucky as fuck to have guys like Raven and DDP to make him look way better than he ever was. Plus he killed Bret's career due to sheer ineptness, so there is that. The idea people are paying to see a 50 years old Goldy do the 50 years old routine he did more than 20 years ago is baffling to me, honestly.

[PeteF3]

I just know that NXT had me genuinely interested in seeing Baron Corbin vs. Bull Dempsey just on the basis of them being two tough guys who killed people. I'm not saying I was up all night in anticipation, and it's hard to imagine a time when Corbin in particular wasn't grossly overexposed yet. But the build to a mid-card Takeover hoss fight worked in 2014 or '15 based on "1989 thinking."

[Coffey]

If anything, saying it's "1989 thinking" makes you look out of touch, El-P.

Kind of like when Cody Rhodes said AEW didn't need heels or babyfaces anymore.

[sek69]

i mean, it may be 1989 thinking but it usually works when someone tries it. Just because an idea isn't something new or inventive doesn't mean it needs to be discarded completely.

No one's advocating for the return of all-squash shows, but they still have a place even in 2021.

I will say though, watching endless squashes is what got me to get invested in the wrestlers as a kid and I can't say that would be the case if I was growing up watching WWE today. 

[Kadaveri]

Before it went all super indie NXT used to have loads of squash/JTTS style matches in 2013-15 and it worked perfectly well in building stars and matches people wanted to see.

[KawadaSmile]

Squash matches absolutely can and should be used. Braun Strowman in 2016 was GREAT because of the sheer absurdity of those 3 on 1 handicap matches.

Even for someone like Piper Niven, the handicap matches against Eva Marie kinda worked, and got the crowd on her side somewhat

[jiraffejustin]

I was watching an episode of WCW Pro and Kevin Sullivan, accompanied by The Giant, squashed Damon Striker (later known as Edge). During the short match, this happened 

 

Squashes can be pretty cool and effective without taking up much time. 

[El-P]

8 hours ago, Coffey said:

If anything, saying it's "1989 thinking" makes you look out of touch, El-P.

Sure, I'm of all people on this board is out of touch with how current pro-wrestling works.  By 1989 thinking I refer to *only* building people that way. Not to squash matches as a mean to an end among others.

7 hours ago, sek69 said:

No one's advocating for the return of all-squash shows, but they still have a place even in 2021.

Ok. What did I say in my last post ?

9 hours ago, El-P said:

Yes, squashes matches have absolutely a use to build someone up especially if he/she is supposed to be a monster, but they are only a step in building someone, not the whole process. And can only work in very specific cases.

I mean... really now. When did I say "Squash matches are useless" ? I didn't at all. I said that *only* building two guys through squashes to have them meet at a big show was 1989 thinking. Sure, you could still try it once. Not sure that would work well, and if it would, it would take very specific guys to do it with and it would only work (if it would) because it would be an exception to the rule. Then again, I'm not convinced it would work *that* well. Miro was so awesome as TNT champ not because he was doing squashes but because he came off like a monster while having actual great competitive TV matches. Him going Goldy on jobbers would have only get him so far with the AEW  audience. And the final big match did not happen against someone who would do the same thing. Case in point, Jade Cargill, who's got an awesome look and presentation, is not exactly getting over like crazy thus far, and really the best reactions she ever got was when she actually had competitive matches, especially the Red Velvet one. (can't wait to see her go against Thunder Rosa, but I'm in the wrong thread)

And really, you have squash matches pretty much every week, to a degree or another, and both Dark shows are basically just about that anyway. There are most squash matches and JTTS matches now that there ever was in 15 years during the WWE monopoly/late 90's (and yeah indeed, NXT but also LU to a point is when they surged back on the scene).

[Dav'oh]

“This is technically a squash” was my predominant thought during Roman vs Big E. I mean, if the outcome is never in doubt, it doesn’t matter how much offence the winner lets the loser get in. A JTTS match, which is the kindest way I can look at the Survivor Series main event, is still a form of a squash.

*I like Big E and Roman both.

[MoS]

3 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

“This is technically a squash” was my predominant thought during Roman vs Big E. I mean, if the outcome is never in doubt, it doesn’t matter how much offence the winner lets the loser get in. A JTTS match, which is the kindest way I can look at the Survivor Series main event, is still a form of a squash.

*I like Big E and Roman both.

Big E didn't even get a lot of offence. He had a great comeback stretch right towards the end, which co-incidentally was the only time the crowd was alive during the match. Otherwise, Roman ate him alive during the match. Cesaro got more offence against Roman than Big E did, kicking out of the spear aside. To say nothing of the challengers against whom Roman needed outside help. This for the WWE champion, who needed to look as strong as possible so he could carry the Raw brand. 

I think that is one reason why WWE should have more squashes. It's cuz the booking is such that pretty much no one looks good and like a badass star, especially top babyfaces. Literally the only way WWE will book you strongly is if you are a top heel in charge of a stable. It's like it's the only trope they remember. There is such a complete dearth of cool faces, it's mind-boggling. 

[TheDuke]

I tend to fast forward squash matches. I usually DVR wrestling so I can skip the commercials, as nothing too surprising seems to happen any more. I don't watch Dark, and if all wrestling tv was just squash matches I would probably stop watching. Even today with WWE when I had the Network, it felt like the tv except for maybe the week after a PPV was filler and only the PPVs felt worth watching. I can imagine a future where wrestling moves more towards a Lucha Underground style where there are no PPVs and the tv just builds to itself. I do think there should be more short promos from the underneath guys. That is one thing I do miss from old wrestling.