sek69 Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 Was requested to spin this off, so have at it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 Curious as to why Brandi's role getting reduced was apparently the sticking point in the AEW negotiations but Cody seems fine going to WWE without her. Something doesn't fit here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobogo Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 I think Cody played himself. He should have seen being able to bring Bryan and Punk in as a benefit for everyone instead of as a threat to him. I'm sure he'll secure the bag with WWE, but he's going to be working a lot more and be miserable. AEW would almost assuredly not exist without Cody spearheading All In, so that he saw things in terms of "am I the top fucking guy or not" instead of looking at the bigger picture of the growth of the company is showing the whole thing was an ego thing for him from the start. For a guy who is young but talks about "legacy" all the fucking time, he's not painting himself in a great light jumping back to WWE after not getting paid the most of anyone in the company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Wolfe Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 I would look at it the other way - Cody left wwe and by all accounts was a large motivator in managing to corral the disparate streams of indie momentum into one specific moment w/ All-In At this position a multi-millionaire takes all their momentum and squirrels it off for himself, cuts the head off any individual promotions momentum & makes it about "his" brand. The ringleaders make the mistake of not getting any equity in the operation & now its not theirs in the slightest. If I were the other EVPs I would be be very weary of their boss after this escapade. Vince style manoeuvring, and in any other cultural industry I'd call it gentrification I do really like the AEW product and find Cody quite boring as a face (he could be a great, great heel). But it's not cut and dry this one, i dont think AEW come up smelling of roses at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 2 hours ago, strobogo said: AEW would almost assuredly not exist without Cody spearheading All In, To be fair, although All In did play a part, the real kickstarter was Omega vs Jericho in NJPW. This is where TK saw that there was subscription boom in the US. There's a reason why the three guys TK wanted to build AEW around were Jericho, Omega and Punk. Which, in the end, he's been doing. Plus, All In was not all about Cody, at all. The NWA match with Aldis did have traction, but Omega & the Bucks were the bigger stars on the indie scene, ROH and NJPW, which basically was the All In audience. And you had that Okada fellow on the card too... 2 hours ago, strobogo said: I think Cody played himself. He should have seen being able to bring Bryan and Punk in as a benefit for everyone instead of as a threat to him. I'm sure he'll secure the bag with WWE, but he's going to be working a lot more and be miserable. There's a very high possibility of this, indeed. And really, he's not gonna have the same creative input as he had in AEW, for better (the first two years) or worse (ya know...), he's not gonna be seen as the "Head of the revolution" but a guy who crept back to good ol' WWE Universe after being unable to come to term with the hot new promotion he helped create and which is bringing fresh guys WWE was stupid enough to let go (Cole, Keith). Like I said, some people are going to paint it as a major "victory" for Vince, but in reality, it must just be bittersweet for Cody. If he thinks he's gonna take HHH's place on the broken throne, he's quite delusional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss Rock Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 Supposedly Cody considered returning to WWE before AEW took shape. He wanted to prove that he could be the star he was never pushed as and then return to a more prominent position a la Drew McIntyre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 2 hours ago, Dale Wolfe said: At this position a multi-millionaire takes all their momentum and squirrels it off for himself, cuts the head off any individual promotions momentum & makes it about "his" brand. You realize that the promotion just doesn't happen if there is no one with actual money and contacts to make it happen, right ? TK did not cut the head of anything, he made the thing happen. As much as All In was a success, it could not become an actual meaningful promotion without serious financial backing and TV contracts. If TK doesn't make it happen, maybe we get another All In show if ROH is willing to helps again, but probably the Elite signs with WWE, who was throwing big-ass money at Omega. 2 hours ago, Dale Wolfe said: The ringleaders make the mistake of not getting any equity in the operation & now its not theirs in the slightest. The Khan family put 100% of the money. It was never gonna be anything but their promotion. Everybody knew this from the start. EVP is a job and a title, not an ownership stamps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Wolfe Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 1 hour ago, El-P said: You realize that the promotion just doesn't happen if there is no one with actual money and contacts to make it happen, right ? TK did not cut the head of anything, he made the thing happen. As much as All In was a success, it could not become an actual meaningful promotion without serious financial backing and TV contracts. If TK doesn't make it happen, maybe we get another All In show if ROH is willing to helps again, but probably the Elite signs with WWE, who was throwing big-ass money at Omega. The Khan family put 100% of the money. It was never gonna be anything but their promotion. Everybody knew this from the start. EVP is a job and a title, not an ownership stamps. Of course I understand the concept of financial backing, I'm not an idiot. But if you think that Khan is the only way this hypothetical promotion could have existed, you're wrong; he was just the person who got there first. As for the conceptual EVPs not taking even minor equity, more fool them. You can say "without Khan it's nothing," what does he have without the "Elite"'s connections and hype behind them. He's just a rich Internet poster if you take them away from this scenario. I would think Cody is just the first to realise this and is off to get himself a bigger payday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 48 minutes ago, Dale Wolfe said: Of course I understand the concept of financial backing, I'm not an idiot. But if you think that Khan is the only way this hypothetical promotion could have existed, you're wrong; he was just the person who got there first. As for the conceptual EVPs not taking even minor equity, more fool them. You can say "without Khan it's nothing," what does he have without the "Elite"'s connections and hype behind them. He's just a rich Internet poster if you take them away from this scenario. When did I say "without Khan it's nothing" ? Oh yeah, I did not say that at all actually. I said "Without Khan it does not happen". And without the Elite making waves on the indies and *mostly* Jericho vs Omega in NJPW, it does not happen either. It's the right people at the right time under the right circumstances. But to say that it could have been anyone else, well, ok then, but that's pure conjecture on hypothetical stuff that did not happen. And Khan isn't just a "rich Internet poster", you make it sound like he's a random money mark. He's a long time fan who has studied the business, including the mistakes of the past, and had been thinking for a while about it. Who are the other potential people who could have made it happen ? It's not like no one had tried since WCW collapsed. Jarrett and the Carters have tried, and failed miserably. ROH never reached the mainstream. Still waiting for that Shane Douglas promotion that gives pensions and all... So no, TK did not "take all their momentum and squirrels it off for himself, cuts the head off any individual promotions momentum & makes it about "his" brand.", that's simply not factual at all and really paints him as some carny leeching off of the Elite, which is ridiculous honestly, especially considering how successful they have been thus far. 48 minutes ago, Dale Wolfe said: I would think Cody is just the first to realise this and is off to get himself a bigger payday To realize what exactly ? That the company wasn't about him chasing his dad's legacy ? Sure. It never was. The guy managed to turn an audience who absolutely loved him to death against him because of his tone-deaf obsession, really, and it made the product awkward to watch at times. Hell, PWO is the best instance of it, most people here were much more into Cody than they ever were into any other member of the Elite, but by the end the threads were all about making fun of the Codyverse and how awful all that stuff was. And considering he spent the last 5 years talking about making a Revolution and money was not all that mattered and breaking throne and shit, well, he sure gonna get a ridiculous payday (hopefully for him), but his character kinda looks fickle as hell now. Not to mention how he's gonna be booked (come on people, WWE, 2022). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 Maybe Cody decided his work in AEW was done after he ended racism in America and now he wants to help Stephanie bring change to Saudi Arabia. In all seriousness, if it was simply a matter of being leapfrogged in the company hierarchy, all he had to do was go heel. If he had turned on Hangman and reneged on his promise to never challenge for the AEW title, he would have instantly become the hottest heel in the company. If he really is dead-set against being a heel, he's delusional if he thinks he'll be positioned as a top face in WWE, where every babyface other than Brock is a total loser. And it goes without saying that going to WWE because you're unhappy about losing booking power is jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. My take is that it probably came down to money. Cody figured that if he couldn't have the creative control he wanted, he might as well get paid. And he figured, probably correctly, that WWE would pay through the nose to poach a big name from AEW. Also remember that he has said he only wants to wrestle until he's 40, which means he has extra incentive to make as much as he can in the short-term. As for Brandi, WWE has so many hours of content to fill and their women's division is in such dire shape that I'm sure they'll bring her in at some point. There have been rumors that she and Omega clashed over the direction of the AEW women's division. When asked about reports of tension between EVPs, Dave said that Cody was getting along great with the Young Bucks. Feel free to read between the lines there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 The most fascinating thing to me, and probably the most important, is that TK simply did not pick up Cody's option. He picked up all the other ones from the first signees, but not Cody's. So that basically means that if Cody wanted out for whatever reason, TK agreed to let him go, knowing he would be a catch for the opposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 It may not be fair because women who stand up for themselves tend to be treated poorly in society in general and in wrestling specifically, but there's been way too many rumors of Brandi rubbing everyone the wrong way for there to be nothing to it. She often makes statements that make her come off as Alica Silverstone's character in Clueless so I can imagine what may have gone down behind the scenes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 8 hours ago, Dale Wolfe said: I do really like the AEW product and find Cody quite boring as a face (he could be a great, great heel). But it's not cut and dry this one, i dont think AEW come up smelling of roses at all I think Loss summed it up best on Twitter that the weird thing about this story is that there really doesn't seem to be any bad guys here, which is rare when someone leaves a company in wrestling. Cody saw the writing on the wall that his vision for the company was largely not shared by anyone else in power, TK doesn't want to devote a large section of his budget to someone who would only be like the 6th guy on the totem pole on a good day, and both just agreed it was time to move on. In the end, everyone wins in the sense that Cody probably will get a fat payday and TK doesn't have to keep bolting the Codyverse segements on his show that increasingly weren't fitting the vibe they were going for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dale Wolfe Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 Very excitable response @El-P! No need to get so invested, it's not an attack Look at it this way- say there's a hugely successful underground band or group of DJs or stand-up comedians etc; let's say half a dozen headliners, good supporting cast. Potential to tour all over, drawing big crowds, and running independently A benefactor comes in and offers them a good salary but no other benefits. A "bigger audience" but no equity and all profits belong to the boss. The boss is a big fan but an outsider. In any other industry do you defend the boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 55 minutes ago, Dale Wolfe said: Very excitable response @El-P! No need to get so invested, it's not an attack Not an excitable response at all. Just putting things back into perspective. I guess I'm invested because I find the situation pretty fascinating ! Fun times really. 55 minutes ago, Dale Wolfe said: Look at it this way- say there's a hugely successful underground band or group of DJs or stand-up comedians etc; let's say half a dozen headliners, good supporting cast. Potential to tour all over, drawing big crowds, and running independently A benefactor comes in and offers them a good salary but no other benefits. A "bigger audience" but no equity and all profits belong to the boss. The boss is a big fan but an outsider. In any other industry do you defend the boss. There it is. I'm actually not defending anyone, because there's no one to defend, there's no bad guy here, neither Cody nor TK. Seems to me like a bittersweet separation because interests have gone into different directions. As far as "All profits goes to the boss", wait, what ? Just the fact AEW exists is a huge benefit for the entire landscape of pro-wrestling. It's better for the workers who can get paid more than when there's only TNA and ROH in the 00's, not to mention the fact now guys can play both sides to get more money. It's not a matter of being a benefactor offering salaries, it's a matter of actually building a company that stays sustainable in the long haul. Meltz mentioned that TK was adamant since day one that 100% of the promotion was his and that it wasn't a discussion (I mean, he's a capitalist entrepreneur, I love AEW but I'm not wearing rose-colored glass either). Also, it's easier to say they should have battled for equity now with hindsight, but when it started no one knew it would be as successful as it is. Also, I remember Cody's line against unionization, so there's this in term of "defending the boss" stuff. There's plenty of things we don't know, first being why TK did not roll over Cody's contract. Was that because of a money issue ? Because of Cody not being happy because of the booking ? How much Brandi's situation weigh in this ? We just don't know. You're trying to paint the picture of good ol' Cody seeing the picture on the wall (what picture exactly ?) wanting to go out because the "outsider" owner (who from inside had the financials and the contacts to put that operation moving in 2018 exactly ?) has robbed the Elite of whatever booking duties they really never had to begin with, when the situation is a bit more complex than this. Fact : Cody's stint had turned into a complete mess in the last year or so (although he redeemed himself lately with really good performances) while the company was growing due to Omega & the Bucks (those other EVPs who seem quite happy and aren't going anywhere) and bigger profiles (which has a cost) showing up, making Cody less of a focus in the company and for good reasons. In the end, I pretty much agree with this : 2 hours ago, sek69 said: I think Loss summed it up best on Twitter that the weird thing about this story is that there really doesn't seem to be any bad guys here, which is rare when someone leaves a company in wrestling. Cody saw the writing on the wall that his vision for the company was largely not shared by anyone else in power, TK doesn't want to devote a large section of his budget to someone who would only be like the 6th guy on the totem pole on a good day, and both just agreed it was time to move on. In the end, everyone wins in the sense that Cody probably will get a fat payday and TK doesn't have to keep bolting the Codyverse segements on his show that increasingly weren't fitting the vibe they were going for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted February 17, 2022 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 Folks really wishing for a bad guy here are weird to me. Yeah no one expected any of the EVPs leaving, but it is possible for two people to realize things aren't going to work and part ways with no ill will toward each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMJ Posted February 17, 2022 Report Share Posted February 17, 2022 - I'm definitely confused as to what Cody gains by going to the WWE. I think just saying "big payday" is a larger question mark than people think. Sure, Cody will likely have a larger contract in the WWE, but that also usually means more travel, working more dates, less of a take from merch sales, less freedom to outside opportunities (no way does Cody's relationship with TBS continue after this, though, I doubt he was making much from either show he was on)...I don't know, just seems more complicated than saying the WWE is offering him some massive deal when one has to imagine the folks in WWE are aware of what he was making in AEW and what his market value is. Cody Rhodes may have raised his value since leaving the WWE, but has he doubled his value? Tripled his value? I dunno... - I've been called a conspiracy theorist for believing that Stephanie McMahon may eventually dip a toe into politics (and actually do well), but didn't Cody say he wanted to run for a Georgia Senate seat? As Kane proved (and Jesse Ventura before him and, well, Trump too, I guess), these days, a memorable run in the WWE is a faster ticket to an elected position than military service or years of community activism or any of that nonsense, right? I can see a scenario where Cody is thinking short-term with pro-wrestling and long-term with the Cody Rhodes brand and platform. Having got all the bloody brawls and actual wrestling out of his system, why not go do the thing that could make you something close to a household name? - That being said, Cody will never be at a Brock/Roman level (not that he'd need to be to win a seat in state or even federal government). Still, when he left, he wasn't even at The Miz's level, let alone Rollins level. In terms of babyface reactions, the best he can probably hope for is a KofiMania type run and I don't think that's likely because he's not as likable as Kofi Kingston or Big E or even Kevin Owens. So, the big babyface run seems like wishful thinking even in a company that desperately needs babyfaces. Its unclear where Cody fits into the hierarchy but its definitely no higher than it was AEW. Below Reigns and Brock, obviously, but I'm thinking he's not going over Rollins either and if you compare the body types, I doubt Vince views Cody as having the same stature/credibility/marketability as a Lashley or McIntyre (both of whom have also been firmly positioned as lesser than Reigns and Brock this year too). So, if Cody was sixth or seventh on the call sheet in AEW, in the WWE, he'd be closer to eight or ninth...especially when you've got guys like Edge and Goldberg hanging around *AND* a much more developed women's division. In AEW, there's no woman that can really challenge Cody's star value. In the WWE, he's a lesser star than Ronda, Becky, Charlotte, and arguably Sasha too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButchReedMark Posted February 18, 2022 Report Share Posted February 18, 2022 He brought his dog out for his entrance as pyro shot off everywhere all around it. He's surely the stupidest bastard of all time. Thick as pigshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 On 2/17/2022 at 7:48 AM, El-P said: To be fair, although All In did play a part, the real kickstarter was Omega vs Jericho in NJPW. This is where TK saw that there was subscription boom in the US. There's a reason why the three guys TK wanted to build AEW around were Jericho, Omega and Punk. Which, in the end, he's been doing. Plus, All In was not all about Cody, at all. The NWA match with Aldis did have traction, but Omega & the Bucks were the bigger stars on the indie scene, ROH and NJPW, which basically was the All In audience. And you had that Okada fellow on the card too... When I left All In that night, all anyone seemed to want to talk about was what an emotional moment Cody winning the title was. Grown men sobbing. I still think it's the most incredible moment in that show and an all-time classic wrestling moment. I do think TK was necessary here. In the music industry - there's broader infrastructure that can be latched onto without a significant backer. Building a wrestling company required getting a TV network to buy in, and despite what Cody and the Bucks had pulled off on their own, I don't quite see them pulling that off. Could they have argued for a 1% equity interest in the company apiece? Maybe. But TK gave them big salaries and took on all the equity risk here (admittedly, a relatively easy thing for him because of Dad's money). In terms of why TK let him leave - I think one thing TK seems to have learned from WCW is that the locker room matters. Yeah, he could hold Cody here - but isn't there potential negative value of having the unhappy guy around for two years? He seems to have done the same with Brian Cage, basically sent home still getting paid because he'd rather not deal with a malcontent screwing up the locker room energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 24 minutes ago, Migs said: When I left All In that night, all anyone seemed to want to talk about was what an emotional moment Cody winning the title was. Grown men sobbing. I still think it's the most incredible moment in that show and an all-time classic wrestling moment. Oh, for sure, it was an important part of the show. The match itself wasn't that great and tons of smokes and mirrors (Aldis just isn't that great), but it played as a memorable moment. Just like Cody vs Dustin looked like the biggest match coming off Double of Nothing to a lot of people. Funny thing in retrospect, is that if you look at the booking of Cody's big matches, there was always that aspect of him doing the "Codyverse", of sorts. From winning the NWA Title like his father, to the match against his brother, to creating the TNT Title, everything was more or less about his own little heritage. Meanwhile, the Elite, and by that I mean Omega, Hangman & the Bucks, basically booked themselves into a long-term storyline (referred around here in what I find to be an annoying and honestly ridiculous derogatory term as "Elite drama", when in fact it's just good storytelling based on actual personal relationships and long-term history through several promotions) designed toward one goal : making Hangman Page a legit main-eventer. That was the entire purpose from day one, from the split from the Elite to the tag-team with Omega, to the betrayal through Callis, the Bucks heel turn in a Bullet Club reunion of sorts to finally Hangman beating Omega with the Bucks looking out and not interfering. Cody had basically no role in this and once he got done with the TNT title reigns, the last real good thing he did in the company, getting over many people in the process, it seems he had no direction anymore, and this is where he gets lost into the jingoist promo and lost the love of the AEW audience. In the end of the day, the name of the company was All Elite Wrestling, and it seems that Cody, by getting estranged with the Elite in more than a kayfabe way, lost the sense of a common vision for the company because of his own tunnel vision, which was all about his dad's name legacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted February 19, 2022 Report Share Posted February 19, 2022 https://www.f4wonline.com/news/aew/kenny-omega-comments-on-cody-rhodes-departure-from-aew Kenny seems to point to a lot of what you're saying, @El-P. And what I think many would expect - Kenny and the Bucks essentially had artistic motivations. Enacting their vision, to them, means artistic freedom, especially in performing in the ring, that I'd assume TK has given them. The business side for them, at most, is about being able to integrate a lot of stuff - which, with the Forbidden Door, they've gotten (/will get when Japan opens up). Cody had a broader vision, a leadership role in wrestling of sorts. Cody wanted to be the kingpin, and that was not playing out how he had hoped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 Still not sure which is a more inane troll job, any pro-WWE troll that sees this on the level of Flair 1991, or Hogan 1993, or Bret in 1997 in terms of a hard hit to AEW, despite not knowing what’s been happening with Cody in recent months. Or AEW fanboy trolls still expecting this to be a massive work towards an invasion angle (perhaps ROH) The latter could be closer to the truth than his leaving being a mortal wound that would cause major changes for AEW to recover from, but I doubt the WWE wouldn’t allow the “hints” to drop just to troll fans into thinking Cody was coming when he wasn’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strobogo Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 I would argue that Bret leaving was not a hit to WWE at all. It kicked off the hottest run, the main event run of Austin, the Mr. McMahon character, and really the official Attitude Era while WCW gained absolutely nothing with Bret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveJRogers Posted March 1, 2022 Report Share Posted March 1, 2022 45 minutes ago, strobogo said: I would argue that Bret leaving was not a hit to WWE at all. It kicked off the hottest run, the main event run of Austin, the Mr. McMahon character, and really the official Attitude Era while WCW gained absolutely nothing with Bret. Oh in complete hindsight of course. But after Survivor Series, you’d get laughed off whatever board or chat room if you declared within 5 years WCW would be dead and the WWF emerging bigger than it had been a decade earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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