S.L.L. Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I think one of the biggest problems people have with HBK is his blatant unprofessionalism in many of his high profile matches. I can't be the only one entertained by that stuff though. When he was smiling & grinning while getting beaten & bludgeoned by Bret Hart in the SS '97 match, I was laughing. Maybe I don't take pro wrestling seriously enough, but most of that shit just added to Shawn's greatness in my eyes. I mean he had the audacity to do it to guys who could legitimately kill him with their bare hands if they wanted to. And he got away with it. I chuckle just thinking about it. I got more than a few laughs out of Shawn over-overselling for Hogan, myself. That said, if we're really appraising Shawn as a worker, that kind of thing has to count against him. I suppose, if we're doing a poll on the most professional in-ring technicians of all time, that is true. Topic says "Greatest Wrestler" which is definitely more vague. You almost have to break it down into different categories, no? Well, "great" is definitely a vague term. I don't remember what the specific standards were for the Smarkschoice poll. I imagine if it was just "guys you enjoyed for whatever reason" that sort of thing could help Shawn. If it was "greatest worker", as I interpreted it, it would have to hurt him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Being a douchebag is part of the criteria for being great in the ring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest STAN Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Being a douchebag is part of the criteria for being great in the ring?He's not being a douchebag to me, just to guys I don't know. Plus I wasn't clear that it was on strictly in-ring work, not promos, entrances, or what have you. S.L.L. made it clear that it's for in-ring work though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Being a douchebag is part of the criteria for being great in the ring?Only if the douchebaggery extends to breaking character and throwing tantrums during matches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 The poll was always based on in-ring work, though it was up to each voter to determine what great in-ring work was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragemaster Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Hi I'm working nights at the moment so i will rejoin this discussion sunday/monday if its still on going. I will relook at Eddie to see if I'm not giving him the credit he is due. As for bret i think its an easy argument to win if you look at the facts and not hype or if you think he's The Best There Is The Best There Was The Best There Ever Will Be. So i will put my case forward then and maybe some more of you can list your top ten lists to see what your mind set is when it comes to wrestling compared to mine. Mr Rage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 As for bret i think its an easy argument to win if you look at the facts and not hype or if you think he's The Best There Is The Best There Was The Best There Ever Will Be. This is actually an interesting point. Not one I agree with necessarily, but I've often made the point that a lot of Shawn fans are easily taken in by the whole "Showstopper" gimmick. Even amongst fans on the internet who claim to be too smart to fall for the cheap tricks of wrestling promoters, hype and gimmickry is still very potent.... -Broken down shell of his former self Michaels is still a top-flight worker because he's "The Showstopper" -Kurt Angle, Lance Storm, Shelton Benjamin, Charlie Haas, Brent Albright, John Walters, et al are great technicians because they have "great technician" gimmicks -MVP and The Miz are bad workers because they have "bad worker" gimmicks -Carlito starts working a high energy style, but still retains the "cool, indifferent guy" gimmick, and gets criticized for being lazy I don't doubt for a second that there are people out there who think Bret is a great worker because he's "The Best There Is, etc., etc.", but I do think that independently of the hype, he's still a great wrestler. Same with Shawn, or at least it was at one point. As for my own top ten, it's liable to change at any given moment, but right now, these are the guys who would probably be in contention.... Lioness Asuka Atlantis Steve Austin Giant Baba Bob Backlund Chris Benoit Blue Panther Jack Brisco Negro Casas Javier Cruz El Dandy The Destroyer The Dynamite Kid Ric Flair Tatsumi Fujinami Terry Funk Fuerza Guerrera Eddie Guerrero Volk Han Stan Hansen Bret Hart Shinya Hashimoto Toshiaki Kawada Aja Kong Jerry Lawler Jushin Thunder Liger Devil Masami Mitsuharu Misawa Pirata Morgan Rey Mysterio Jr. Chigusa Nagayo Harley Race El Hijo del Santo El Satanico Randy Savage Ricky Steamboat Nobuhiko Takada Genichiro Tenryu Jumbo Tsuruta Big Van Vader Jaguar Yokota Take that for what you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I think the notion of Shawn as one of the very greatest of all time has been fueled by WWE propaganda, no doubt. That was a major part of the conclusion of the Michaels DVD and Jim Ross, one of the most gifted salesmen in the business, has been pumping the idea for a decade. Anyway, I'm interested to know if Shawn's 5-year return run has influenced the opinions of folks here on the quality of his career. I've read the great posting battles that led up to his WON HOF induction, but that accounted for little of his later run. Though I'm not fond of a lot of his recent work, I do think the comeback added to his HOF legitimacy. But that's a gut feeling that might not hold up to real scrutiny. So I'm curious what you guys think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 I think the notion of Shawn as one of the very greatest of all time has been fueled by WWE propaganda, no doubt. That was a major part of the conclusion of the Michaels DVD and Jim Ross, one of the most gifted salesmen in the business, has been pumping the idea for a decade. Anyway, I'm interested to know if Shawn's 5-year return run has influenced the opinions of folks here on the quality of his career. I've read the great posting battles that led up to his WON HOF induction, but that accounted for little of his later run. Though I'm not fond of a lot of his recent work, I do think the comeback added to his HOF legitimacy. But that's a gut feeling that might not hold up to real scrutiny. So I'm curious what you guys think. I don't know what kind of an effect it has on his HOF credentials. In terms of judging him as a career worker, it hurts him. Lots of good-great wrestlers have post-prime periods where they start to suck. Not a lot of those guys get heavy airtime where they're promoted as great workers and booked into designated workrate matches. Shawn is, and so the prominence of his suck reflects badly on his career body of work. Compare to someone like Barry Windham. The story with Windham is usually that he was a great worker with a short prime, and afterwards he fell apart hard, and thus he's not one of the very greatest workers ever. But Barry had a prime that was about as long as Shawn's, probably produced the better body of work between the two, and when he fell apart after 1993, he basically disappeared. Barry from 1994 on wasn't getting featured in high profile "mat classics" where announcers gushed over what a great worker he was. He disappeared outside of various midcard stints, and his legacy is better off for it. If he didn't, I'd probably think a lot less of him as a worker than I do now. If Shawn had stayed retired after 1998, I'd probably think a lot more of him as a worker than I do. But he didn't, and to paraphrase Bill Corbett, I believe the saying is "leave them wanting more", not "leave them wishing you retired ten years ago". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Coming back has definitely strengthened his case. You have to remember that 98% of wrestling fans love Shawn Michaels and don't think he's past his prime, and just as many probably think he's the greatest wrestler in the world. Some even think he's better than ever since returning. He's also headlined some huge shows - way bigger than at any point in the 90s - since returning, which has probably made him appear a stronger draw. And Meltzer always talks of the new Shawn being much more mature -- but then you get his book which was filled with lies, and the recent story in the WON of him throwing a tantrum because Umaga had new tights made that were the same color as HHH's. Not to mention the whole Hogan thing. But he still has that rep now of being a total pro, FWIW. People also see the tags against Somers and Rose in '86, and the matches against Cena in '07, and think he's been a great worker for 20+ years, and thus should be discussed alongside guys like Ric Flair and Kenta Kobashi. I don't agree with HBK's rep, but I do understand how people feel that way. And if you're a WWF fan -- you remember him as the first guy to do the ladder match, first guy to do Hell in a Cell, first and only guy (aside from Bret) to do an Ironman match in the WWF. He's also pushed as the guy in the company who is most synonymous with Wrestlemania (besides Undertaker). Yes, I know he wasn't the first to do some of those things, but that's his rep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest onlxn Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Yeah, HBK's HOF case is waaaay stronger than it would've been had he stayed retired. The fact that none of us have really enjoyed his post-'02 work pales in comparison to the fact that he's been an effective top-carder for the world's biggest company. I think he's still a pretty weak HOFer (far weaker than HHH, whose case I tl;dr'ed to death elsewhere), but he's got at least something of a drawing argument now, in addition to a good run of work earlier on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smkelly Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Michaels before his "retirement" was one of the best workers in the business at that point. If he wanted to work, he could, but the chances of him actually wanting to work hard weren't that great. He was in business for himself, and himself only. Michaels after his "retirement" is much the same. He works extremely hard parallel guys like HHH/Flair/Cena/Taker/Benoit/Angle. He didn't do much with Kennedy, although he did lose clean, which is as rare as Taker or HHH losing cleanly. His overall quality in workrate and promos have dwindled. Pre 98 Shawn will be remembered as a selfish jerk who could work, and Post 02 Shawn will be remembered as a has been who gets on his knees far too easily. Don't get me wrong, he can still go, but no where near the level he "retired" at. He's awfully similar to Michael Jordan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 As far as I recall, my top 10 was: 1. Jaguar Yokota 2. El Dandy 3. The Destroyer 4. MS-1 5. Chigusa Nagayo 6. Ric Flair 7. Akira Hokuto 8. Blue Panther 9. Volk Han 10. Jumbo Tsuruta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floyd Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 It's years later but I'll lay my cards on the table. Here's my Top 10 I sent in: 1. Ric Flair 2. Mitsuharu Misawa 3. Terry Funk 4. Bret Hart 5. Harley Race 6. Jumbo Tsuruta 7, Kenta Kobashi 8. Chris Benoit 9. Jushin "Thunder" Liger 10. Ricky Steamboat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverwidow Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 I like OJ's outside-the-box list. Unfortunately, I haven't seen enough of the lucha to include guys like Panther on mine. If we re-did this, I'm pretty sure my top 5 would stay the same (Jumbo, Kawada, Hokuto, Liger, Jaguar). The rest of it is a crapshoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Rob Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 My top five would go something like Flair, Kawada, Tsuruta, Funk and maybe Kobashi. He didn't figure on my list at all the first time I did it, but Abdullah the Butcher would be pretty high up if I re did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Watching his match with Dusty on the Mid-South set reminds me that Nick Bockwinkel really should be in my above list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Bock vs. Dusty is one of the matches I want to watch on the set, but I'm saving it for the next King of Chicken. We'll do a little Dusty Battle: Dusty vs. Flair (Starcade '85) Dusty vs. Backlund (Japan) Dusty vs. Nick (Mid South) If Nick can top Bob's match, it will be a hell of a match. If it tops Flair's, I will be greatly amused... since I'm not a big fan of that Starcade match John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 I don''t see it topping Flair's. And really you guys need to watch the Brody v Bockwinlkle from Houston to give yourself a reason to tear out your own eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 I don''t see it topping Flair's. Then it must be pretty mediocre. And really you guys need to watch the Brody v Bockwinlkle from Houston to give yourself a reason to tear out your own eyes. We watched that before, with the Meltzer-Corny Commentary Track. What a horrible match. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 I'd put it easily ahead of the Flair match. Never did see the Backlund match, though you've always had good things to say about it. Worth noting that one of the things that stood out to me about Nick/Dusty was that it didn't jump out at me as being a carryjob. Dusty's performance won't make you forget Chavo Guerrero's performance in the following match on the set, but it's not like he wasn't bringing anything to the match, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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