So, "Ring of Hell"...

[Tim Cooke]

Polish Bob Stupak being Randazzo is amusing, if not a tad sad.

[sek69]

IMO it seems like Dave is carrying a bit of guilt over Pillman's death still, he seems to think he could have done more to convince him to stop wrestling when he was in bad shape towards the end. As such, he is still super sensitive about anything regarding him, especially what was written in Ring of Hell.

[Guest The 3H's]

Maybe because what was written in "Ring Of Hell" about Pillman was wrong. I don't think Dave feels guilty about not doing more to help Pillman, because he could only do so much. I think Dave just misses his friend, It's been said that Dave was Pillman's only friend those last few years of his life, so it's understandable for him to get a little annoyed when he reads things in a book about him, that he knows isn''t true.

[Bix]

I don't think Dave feels guilty about not doing more to help Pillman

I forget if he's said it outright, but at the very least he's implied strongly that he does feel incredibly guilty.

[kjh]

Just because someone is right doesn't mean they aren't also being snide or patronising.

And Randazzo is an angel.

I think most of us would agree that he tends to be more snide and patronising in his writing than Dave is. Part of what I wrote (the bit in brackets) was tongue in cheek and I agree that a lot of what Randazzo wrote about Pillman was quite a bit off. That said I do question whether Dave knows 100% exactly what went down with Pillman, as he obviously feels, given that he's been worked by his friends in the past. I'm sure Dave was bugged by the factual inaccuracies written about Pillman, but even if those inaccuracies had been corrected before printing I still think Dave would have been bugged with Pillman's portrayal in the book, because of the negative tone.

[Bob Morris]

If Randazzo did blow off Dave correcting him in the Observer, I can understand Dave being unhappy about it (and absolutely, Randazzo would be wrong for blowing him off). If not, then Dave doesn't need to harp on what he already went over in the Observer.

 

It's one thing to correct somebody, it's another thing to keep jumping on the person about it every chance you get, unless the person refuses to correct it.

[tomk]

So at one point Phiil, SLL and I had talked about doing a roundtable discussion of the book at Segunda Caida. The sense I got was that we all had pretty different takes on the thing. Never finished writing anything and maybe should put unfinished stuff up as a Segundacaida incomplete. But I pretty much am a guy who shares Randazzo’s basic thesis . That said I found the book really disappointing as I don’t think he makes a case that would persuade anyone who lives outside of the wrestling bubble. It’s not a book written for a general audience. It’s a book written for wrestling fans. And as such both the praise and criticism really expose the limited scope of that audience.

 

For the most part when I read someone pan the book, the ridiculous arguments that they used to criticize the book made me go “Holy fuck does this guy have any experience reading other books?” For the most part when I read the effusive praise, I came away with same sense.

 

goodhelmet:

 

I doubt any one who isn't familiar with wrestling already would even know what the hell is going on in this book. This was a book by a net guy for other net guys.

Bix:

 

This, and also that they tried to ignore his role in the WWE hazing stories as much as possible in the same way that Dave ignored Flair's drunken flashing habits before the "Flight From Hell" lawsuit.

In last year or so of Benoit’s life Meltzer regularly mentioned him as part of wrestling courts. I don’t know whether that meant Meltzer ignored his participation prior to 2006 or if Benoit only became active in 2006. It was enough of change that I remember writing asking if this was new thing: Benoit finally figuring out how to properly socialize in the WWE and suddenly appears in the courts. I’m basing my dates here on my memory that he wasn’t regularly mentioned as participant at the time that Kid Kash was mentioned as regular member ( Kash left in 2006). Benoit was in WWF from 2000-2007, Ring of Hell doesn’t really do anything to clear up the question of when he started getting involved with the “courts.”

 

As to other hazing stories, Ring Of Hell has Scott Norton say that Benoit was a mean Stampede style prankster but we get no actual stories of his pranks, and we get stories of forcing folks to do Hindu squats. Unfortunately there is nothing in ROH that comes off as sadistic enough that we can accuse Meltzer of cleansing a record.

 

Wrestling is a world where sadism and hazing are regular normative behavior. Wrestling court sadism is "proper socialization". Weird variations on it, guys into shitplay, will end up having it mentioned in their obits...but otherwise normative unremarkable behavior.

[Indikator]

Was I the only one who had the impression that the wrestling courts were glorified when Benoit was alive and couldn't do anything wrong in the eye of the common wrestling fan? It always had the ring of vigilantism to me

[Bix]

I don't remember regular discussion of the "wrestler courts." I only remember a handful of mentions in the years that I've been reading the WON, with the Silverman hazing story, the Hardy book review, and maybe one or two other stories, but nothing that would indicate a pattern and I seem to remember Benoit being mentioned only once. When there were stories about over-hazing (like Palmer Cannon and The Dicks), it was always pinned on JBL without a mention of Benoit.

 

I'd consider the Pee Wee Moore story a cross between hazing and a Stampede prank, and it was pretty vile.

 

The "HAHA! What a gay bitch!" story is used as evidence of sadism. That's something along the lines of what normally I would have thought wouldn't stick out to other wrestlers among wrestler behavior, but Jericho cut the story out of his book in the process of deciding what Benoit stories to remove. He kept various levels of strange & mean behavior like Benoit making fun of how he (Jericho) introduced himself to him, Benoit laughing at him vomiting (including the specific story of Jericho getting sick after doing GHB at the 2nd Super J-Cup), and Benoit punishing himself with exercise because he sold a kick that missed slightly. He didn't feel like that stuff was too weird/creepy to keep in the book after the murders but he cut out Benoit pointing and laughing at a referee who was crying over some sort of personal issue.

[Sean Liska]

bwt did compare the book to the bible and Ball Four on F4W too

That BWT guy was just trying to rile people up. If you've ever seen his work at DVDVR or his brief tenure at TSM, you know he's pretty great troll.

 

One thing MRV got wrong in the book is when he referred to the "Owen Voice" as a sort of secret code that lets the fans know that what they are watching is a shoot. No, the Owen Voice is what WWE announcers (and formerly WCW; I'm not so sure about TNA because I can't imagine Mike and Don not shouting for more than 10 seconds at a time) use to make the fans THINK what they're seeing is a shoot. It's used to add extra gravity to situations like Chyna's neck injury, Stacy Keibler collapsing after her mud match with chest pains, and Hogan LAYING THE SMACKDOWN ON THE ROCK'S CRIPPLED ASS NWO STYLE via a big damn truck, so that the fans will say "Oh wow, they're talking all soft like when that dude fell from the ceiling. It must be real."

 

I've always thought the whole "Owen voice" thing was a real cheap shot. Didn't the announcers talk really quietly when they did the angle where Shawn Michaels got knocked out by Owen Hart and they played off of him getting a concussion from the marines way back in 96? Didn't Joey Styles go into a hush when Shane Douglas pulled Pitbull #1 by his halo or when Tommy Dreamer knocked a cigarette into Sandman's eye? It's natural for the announcers to be subdued when they're trying to sell something as being "extra" real.

 

Edit: I now see that this was addressed a few pages back.

[tomk]

I don't remember regular discussion of the "wrestler courts." I only remember a handful of mentions in the years that I've been reading the WON, with the Silverman hazing story, the Hardy book review, and maybe one or two other stories, but nothing that would indicate a pattern and I seem to remember Benoit being mentioned only once. When there were stories about over-hazing (like Palmer Cannon and The Dicks), it was always pinned on JBL without a mention of Benoit.

I think it shows up pretty regularly as an aside. Melina gets punished for this, Zach Gowen gets punished for that, someone else for something else, someone gets punished for that. Never more than a sentence or two. No long piece, explaining, or defendingthing or criticizing the system too much.

 

JBL and Bob Holly get more individual criticism than Undertaker or Benoit (or Kid Kash for that matter). I think it's safe to assume most of Meltzers informants are wrestlers or folks in the biz. Taker and Benoit probably more respected and "insidas" more willing to justify their arbitrary sadism (or blame sadism on them) than that of people who they "respect" less.

 

The "HAHA! What a gay bitch!" story is used as evidence of sadism. That's something along the lines of what normally I would have thought wouldn't stick out to other wrestlers among wrestler behavior, but Jericho cut the story out of his book in the process of deciding what Benoit stories to remove.

Wrestling is work built on controling ones emotions. Pretending stuff doesn't hurt when it does, pretending stuff does hurt when it doesn't, pretending not to have feelings when you actually do, pretending to have feelings when you don't. Mocking someone for an emotional breakdown isn't particularly surprising.

 

 

The "What a Gay Bitch!" story is a good story to set up what Randazzo describes as the two Eddie tribute shows where Benoit emotionally breaking down were used as the main events.

 

Jericho removing the story of a guy getting mocked for having an emotional breakdown by a friend of Jerichos who ended up killing himself and his family seems smart.

 

But I don't think its removed for its "sadism."

[tomk]

Has Meltzer refered to the "Owen voice"?

That seems like a pretty common term.

 

I mean someone in a bar jokes with his wifes "One of these days I'm going to fucking OJ you bitch" are you really going to answer "You know women have been knifed to death before OJ"?

[S.L.L.]

Has Meltzer refered to the "Owen voice"?

That seems like a pretty common term.

 

I mean someone in a bar jokes with his wifes "One of these days I'm going to fucking OJ you bitch" are you really going to answer "You know women have been knifed to death before OJ"?

Common term, but I think the main criticism here is that the definition Randazzo gave it was not the actual definition of the term.

 

You can call out WWE for misuse of the Owen voice/Lawler check-up, but Randazzo is a sharp enough guy that he should know what it is and provide the appropriate criticism.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Re: Benoit/The Dicks, a quick search of TSM reveals a couple of newsbits:

 

Maturity in the WWE Locker room: The Dicks Chad Wicks was being ribbed non stop by JBL and others, and he was called for a “pre trial” meeting by Taker, Beniot, Kash and JBL. Wicks got so scared he snuck out of the bathroom and accidentally locked the rest in. Orlando Jordon freed them and Wicks was scared of what they would do. They laughed it off and absolved him of whatever prompted the ribbings to start with. Chad panicked and cried to Tank Tolland (Dick 2) and when the ribbers saw that they harassed Wicks even more. Tank ended up grouped with him in the abuse, so the ribbers put the 2 against each other, Wicks tried to joke out of it, which pissed Tank off and Tank punched him twice, Chad got a busted lip, and Tank needed stitches in his hand.

WWE released Tank Tolland and Chad Wicks (The Dicks) last week. The main reason they were released was because of a fight between Tolland and Wicks.

 

Wicks was constantly being ribbed and hazed by a number of the veteran Smackdown wrestlers including JBL, Chris Benoit and The Undertaker. Wicks handled the ribbing poorly, and he'd often complain about it, which lead to even more ribbing. Tolland felt that Wicks' constant complaining would put their jobs in jeopardy. Just recently, the tag team partners had a physical altercation as Tolland punched Wicks. The fight put WWE management in a sticky situation because they couldn't possibly justify firing the wrestler who was punched and not the wrestler who did the punching. And thus, WWE decided to just release the both of them.

 

Tolland and Wicks will be going their separate ways on the indy scene.

 

source - Pro Wrestling Torch (by way of LordsofPain.net)

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Didn't Joey Styles go into a hush when Shane Douglas pulled Pitbull #1 by his halo

Actually it was more of a cartoonish gasp.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Has Meltzer refered to the "Owen voice"?

That seems like a pretty common term.

 

I mean someone in a bar jokes with his wifes "One of these days I'm going to fucking OJ you bitch" are you really going to answer "You know women have been knifed to death before OJ"?

I think "Owen Voice" is a Scott Keith creation.

[tomk]

Scott Keith is not a guy who had creations. He took. I don't care enough to say he stole. He tended to borrow without attribution. I'm not sure anyone really wants proper citation by Keith. But the point is he was never known as guy who came up with jargon/ideas by himself.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

He must have invented SOMETHING over the years!

[Dylan Waco]

So at one point Phiil, SLL and I had talked about doing a roundtable discussion of the book at Segunda Caida. The sense I got was that we all had pretty different takes on the thing. Never finished writing anything and maybe should put unfinished stuff up as a Segundacaida incomplete. But I pretty much am a guy who shares Randazzo’s basic thesis . That said I found the book really disappointing as I don’t think he makes a case that would persuade anyone who lives outside of the wrestling bubble. It’s not a book written for a general audience. It’s a book written for wrestling fans. And as such both the praise and criticism really expose the limited scope of that audience.

 

For the most part when I read someone pan the book, the ridiculous arguments that they used to criticize the book made me go “Holy fuck does this guy have any experience reading other books?” For the most part when I read the effusive praise, I came away with same sense.

 

Funny thing about this is, excluding one person, everyone I know who read this book and liked it a great deal was a non-wrestling fan, and in fact a "book person."

 

On the other hand everyone I know who didn't like the book was a wrestling fan.

[tigerpride]

He must have invented SOMETHING over the years!

The five moves of doom?

[Resident Evil]

So at one point Phiil, SLL and I had talked about doing a roundtable discussion of the book at Segunda Caida. The sense I got was that we all had pretty different takes on the thing. Never finished writing anything and maybe should put unfinished stuff up as a Segundacaida incomplete. But I pretty much am a guy who shares Randazzo’s basic thesis . That said I found the book really disappointing as I don’t think he makes a case that would persuade anyone who lives outside of the wrestling bubble. It’s not a book written for a general audience. It’s a book written for wrestling fans. And as such both the praise and criticism really expose the limited scope of that audience.

 

For the most part when I read someone pan the book, the ridiculous arguments that they used to criticize the book made me go “Holy fuck does this guy have any experience reading other books?” For the most part when I read the effusive praise, I came away with same sense.

 

Funny thing about this is, excluding one person, everyone I know who read this book and liked it a great deal was a non-wrestling fan, and in fact a "book person."

 

On the other hand everyone I know who didn't like the book was a wrestling fan.

 

It doesn't surprise me that non wrestling fans would like the book. From my experience, even people who hate wrestling are still engrossed by wrestling stories as wrestling is just made for storytelling and talking. See Mick Foley.

 

But how do you know non wrestling people who read the book? I don't even know of one person personally who's even heard of the book much less read it and I know a good amount of people who like to read books.

 

And it doesn't surprise me that the people who didn't like the book were wrestling fans. Wrestling fans know more about wrestling than the average book reader does so in a book of this nature they can spot holes and whatever else in it much easier. It's only natural that this would happen. I'm a wrestling fan and I haven't even read the book but yet just from what I read on message boards, it was enough to make me roll my eyes several times. The personalities blindly and comically advertising the book in the defiance of logic (partially to show how "superior" they were to their peers) to the point of absurdity didn't help either.

 

The one thing about this

[jdw]

Polish Bob Stupak being Randazzo is amusing, if not a tad sad.

Is this true? Stupak was a Radazzo socko? Or is this a joke that's popped up?

 

 

John

[kjh]

Tim's comment was based on what was written in the last couple of pages of this thread: The greatest things ever written on wrestling message boards

[jdw]

True or joke?

 

 

John

[MikeCampbell]

He must have invented SOMETHING over the years!

The Hot Poker Up The Ass rating system?