So, "Ring of Hell"...

[Guest KCook]

I'm not really getting the outrage here. Wrestling training is for failed jocks and self-loathing sadomasochists, neither of whom should be bothered or shocked by getting sucker punched. Any normal person who got sucker punched in a training class would just walk out. That people stay around to absorb the punishment proves they're fundamentally fucked in the head and certainly not worth crying crocodile tears over. I haven't read Randazzo's book yet, but his main point seems not to be that we need to protect these delicate flowers from midgets in Power Ranger outfits, but that only ridiculous, worthless human beings who have no sense of what's important in life could possibly make it through the gauntlet into big time pro wrestling.

 

Also, somewhere in this thread there was outrage over training people until they puke. That's really not a big deal. I was off my bike most of the winter because of horrible weather and ended up puking on rides a few times before I got in better shape this spring, and that's not because I was driven by the sadistic radioactive hand of Godzilla's tentacle panties or whatever.

[Bix]

There's also a difference between working snug and potatoing people.

Agreed. But in that same respect, look at The JBL/Blue Meanie incident from the first One Night Stand. The fans' general opinion may have been "screw JBL" but most people in the business looked at it as Meanie being a whiner. Also, the Bob Holly/Matt Capotelli Tough Enough incident. The fellow TE trainess felt bad for him, but both the TE trainers and the workers said that he just needed to suck it up.

I'm pretty sure that I read that Meanie and Cappotelli had their share of defenders in the business, since Meanie was attacked from behind and Cappotelli had it drilled into his head before the incident that you trust your opponent with your body, not to mention the fact that Holly hit him in "unsafe" places like the eyeball.

[Phil Schneider]

Training untill you puke is no big deal, back when I was boxing, if I started up after missing a few weeks I would always throw up, vomited post football and rugby practices too, that is pretty standard for intense training in any sport

[S.L.L.]

Honestly, this thread is like people digging yakuza films and then being horrified by real yakuza.

Yeah, because you can't enjoy a fictional representation of something without condoning it in real life. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I'm a Jew with two grandfathers who served in World War II (happy Memorial Day, folks), and I think "Schindler's List" is a great movie. I guess that means I'm a hypocrite for not being totally chillax with the Holocaust. Seriously, OJ, aren't you just a little bit capable of recognizing the difference between fantasy and reality, or are you legitimately insane? Because right now, I am inclined to think you should be seeking out mental help immediately.

 

Yakuza kills someone in a movie = cool.

Yakuza kills someone in real life = horrifying.

 

Wrestler pretends to punch someone = cool.

Wrestler punches someone for real = horrifying.

 

You tell me who's being naive.

 

You.

 

Next question, please.

 

It's only supposed to happen in the movies/worked match?

 

Yes.

 

What do I win?

 

It's not about condoning it, it's about being shocked or horrified.

So I don't have to condone the Holocaust, but I also can't find it shocking or horrifying, either?

 

Look, I basically agree with Kevin Cook's assessment of the situation. The only real outrage I feel over the situation is that I'm a wrestling fan, and I don't like that wrestling is this way, but that's strictly my personal desire as a fan. I'm just saying people should try to address the situation honestly, rather than disassociating from reality because it's too scary. Acknowledging that wrestling is fucked up and that it's owned and operated by fucked up people is healthy. Refusing/being unable to acknowledge the difference between reality and fantasy is not.

[Resident Evil]

Well yeah, wrestling is screwed up. I knew that for years. Probably since I started watching.

[Guest *FH*]

I can totally understand wanting to throw a big "I told you so" in the face of the deluded fools who always idealized Japan as some magical land of purity and goodness and ball washing. That being said, nothing is really being accomplished because said dudes are just putting their fingers in their ears and yelling "I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALA!" (or is it "RARARARARARARA?")

[jdw]

The only Dave and Debbie story I have ever heard was that Lano's excommunication from Dave's inner circle was in part due to some incident where Lano called Debbie's (Dave's friend and nothing more) room and behaved like Mike Lano.

Hell... I don't recall a time when Lano was in Dave's inner circle. Lano was a nut as far back as I can recall, and was pretty much was introduced to me as a nut. Lano basically glommed himself into various circles, whether is was part of it or not.

 

Dave seemed cheesed by other things relating to Lano than helping spread the Debbie story.

 

 

It's possible someone twisted the story into "Dave was banging Debbie and Lano called then while they were in flagrante" but it's not exactly a widespread enduring story.

I don't think I said Lano called while they were banging. Only that Lano would be more than likely to "confirm" the "story" if one cared to ask him.

 

 

It's also a very different type of story from numerous people in WCW telling Randazzo that when Sullivan was made booker in 2000, Benoit threatened to bang his fists on the ringpost until they were broken and mangled before raising them to the camera triumphantly and walking away. Even if it's not true, enough people told it unsolicited that that it shows enough wrestlers believed he was more than just "wrestler crazy" 7 and a half years before the murders.

I guess I've been around enough wrestling telling a story unsolicited that they "believed" which wasn't to take things with a grain of salt. I've had the equiv of people telling me "The Sky Is Purple" with a straight face, and half them actually believing it when they said it. I'm sure you have as well, Bix, when dealing with wrestlers.

 

I'm not saying that Benoit wasn't bat shit crazy. No doubt that he was. My point is to simply take Matt's book with the same grain of salt we apply to all Wrestling Stories. It's a worked world, and even when people are "shooting" they usually aren't.

 

 

John

[Bix]

I get what you're saying about wrestling stories, but the story still has value as "he was always visably insane and the OMG HOW COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED stuff is BS" material even if it's fake.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

I'm confused by the notion that Benoit was always as fucked up as he was near the end. Do you all really believe that if Eddie hadn't died, Benoit would still have killed his family? Because I'm willing to accept that he was always somewhat messed up, and that he was an asshole to a lot of people during his career, but I'm sure there are a lot of people in the wrestling business who would look at a crying referee and call him a "gay bitch", and who take part in hazing younger wrestlers, and who are stupid enough to keep doing a move that can cause severe neck damage after they were just out with a year with a broken neck. And none of them have killed their families. The fact is that there's a clear series of events that demonstrate Benoit losing nearly all of his sanity from November 2005 to June 2007. I don't think losing all his friends took a normal person and turned him into a psycho, but I do believe it took an already messed up person and made him much, much worse. I agree that all the "He was such a great person" stuff was BS when the stories of his locker-room hazing were well-known, but do you really believe that when they found out he murdered his wife and son, which you have to admit is a rare occurrence even in the messed-up world of wrestling, the other wrestlers just thought "Well, I saw that coming?" Keep in mind, I'm not trying to argue that Benoit was a good person or that HIS LAST DAYS WERE JUST AN ABERRATION WHICH CAN NOT DESTROY THE LEGACY OF FIVE STAR CLASSICS HE CREATED. I have no personal stake invested in Chris Benoit's personal character. I just think a lot of people are denying the effect that his friends' deaths had on his already fragile mental health, all for the sake of trolling those who refuse to admit that anything is wrong with wrestling.

[Bix]

It obviously escalated due to the deaths among other factors. That doesn't mean he wasn't already crazy.

[tomk]

Again I have yet to read the book and so am only basing stuff off what's been leaked in threads.

 

Have you read Matt Hughes autobiography yet?

Pre-murder of his family do the stories about Benoit make him come off any more insane, sadistic, or psychotic than Matt Hughes portrays himself?

 

Being a sadistic psycho in a subculture where that is normative behavior doesn't make killing your own family any more predictable.

[MikeCampbell]

That being said, nothing is really being accomplished because said dudes are just putting their fingers in their ears and yelling "I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALALA!" (or is it "RARARARARARARA?")

Umm based on what? The fact that aside from a couple of naughty words and snide remarks, that Bix, SLL, and OJ are all making valid points?

[Jingus]

I'm confused by the notion that Benoit was always as fucked up as he was near the end.

This. I don't get the "he was ALWAYS a complete psychopath!" viewpoint. Is there supposed to be a big On/Off switch in our DNA which regulates whether someone is born a bad seed? Are all murderers crazy from the day they were born? If Benoit was always a lunatic, why did he wait so long to kill someone? Saying "he was always crazy" imho is a vast oversimplification of the complex nature of the situation of a man taking the lives of the people he had apparently loved at one time. Sometimes it seems like people don't wish to entertain the option that a person can snap and go crazy. And no, don't say I'm trying to do some kind of "he was sane until the day he killed them" kind of bullshit apology which some sad fanboys have thrown around. The simple fact is that for the majority of his adult life, Chris didn't act any differently from a thousand other wrestlers. Why did he annihilate his family when none of them ever did? If the combination of concussions and steroids and pain pills and Japanese training all make you homicidal, why didn't Mike Awesome kill his wife before he hanged himself? All the "wrestling made him crazy" and "he was born crazy" shit doesn't even begin to answer the question of why this one guy did something that none of the other violent psychos in the same industry have ever done. Why did he break whereas others did not?

[Loss]

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but I don't think the argument was ever - at any point - that anyone should have known Benoit was going to kill his wife and son. Moreso, it's more of a counter-argument to the Chris Jericho types making it a point to mention every chance they got how much he loved his family and how he never expressed any warning signs. Warning signs of being a murderer? No, I don't think he exhibited that. But he definitely exhibited warning signs of lunacy.

 

The childhood portrayal of Benoit is there to show that he was always a mentally unstable guy. He was an undersized kid who isolated himself from any friends he had by only wanting to talk about Dynamite Kid, to a point where he focused on nothing else and didn't have any friends who he shared much in common with. There are some interesting stories in this book about his childhood, his isolationist tendencies, his body image obsession, and about how he even had a rep for being such a crazy fan before he got into wrestling.

 

You take someone with that disposition and put him into an environment like professional wrestling, put him through the rigours of training, put him on the drugs he had to take just to have a job, all while he manages to cultivate some strong friendships, almost all of which ended in tragedy. The end result was what we got.

 

So the argument was never that pro wrestling took a normal guy and turned him into a monster. Rather, the argument was that pro wrestling took a guy who wasn't that stable in the first place and aggravated things to a point where he finally snapped. Again, it's a way of responding to the argument that Benoit was this wonderful guy, one who no one really ever saw anything abnormal from.

 

The entire structure of this book is based around the idea that Benoit was already a crazy guy, put in an environment that made him even more mentally unhealthy than he already was.

 

If Matt Hughes, who was mentioned, or Ric Flair, or Shawn Michaels, or Scott Hall, just to name the first few random wrestlers who are coming to mind, did what Benoit did, would we be shocked? Yes, just like we were when Benoit did it, and just like anyone would be. Would their peers be shocked? Yes, absolutely, without question.

 

But would we look back on any of their lives and say, "You know, they were always such great people, and always seemed perfectly normal ..."?

 

The purpose of things like the Flair flight attendant story is to point out that guys who are vastly respected within wrestling would be considered social deviants in everyday society. The argument is that wrestling is a fucked up place that normalizes behavior that just isn't normal, and that people who knew Benoit outside of pro wrestling -- really knew him well -- had he behaved the exact same way, would have always thought of him as a psycho.

 

I get what you're saying about wrestling stories, but the story still has value as "he was always visably insane and the OMG HOW COULD THIS HAVE HAPPENED stuff is BS" material even if it's fake.

This is a really, really shortened version of the overall point, not in expressing shock over Benoit committing a murder, but in expressing shock that the people who worked around and traveled with Benoit for 20+ years always thought he was a nice, normal guy, considering his history.

[Jingus]

There are some interesting stories in this book about his childhood, his isolationist tendencies, his body image obsession, and about how he even had a rep for being such a crazy fan before he got into wrestling.

 

You take someone with that disposition and put him into an environment like professional wrestling, put him through the rigours of training, put him on the drugs he had to take just to have a job, all while he manages to cultivate some strong friendships, almost all of which ended in tragedy.

My issue is, doesn't that description fit countless other wrestlers? What made Benoit different? The only unusual points with him seem to be the strange nature of his career (little workrate guy who became world champion) and the coincedence of several of his close friends dying over a relatively short period of time. Aside from that, what you wrote there perfectly describes God knows how many wrestlers who grew up being weirdo wrestling superfans.

[Resident Evil]

There are some interesting stories in this book about his childhood, his isolationist tendencies, his body image obsession, and about how he even had a rep for being such a crazy fan before he got into wrestling.

 

You take someone with that disposition and put him into an environment like professional wrestling, put him through the rigours of training, put him on the drugs he had to take just to have a job, all while he manages to cultivate some strong friendships, almost all of which ended in tragedy.

My issue is, doesn't that description fit countless other wrestlers? What made Benoit different? The only unusual points with him seem to be the strange nature of his career (little workrate guy who became world champion) and the coincedence of several of his close friends dying over a relatively short period of time. Aside from that, what you wrote there perfectly describes God knows how many wrestlers who grew up being weirdo wrestling superfans.

 

Well, the brain damage plays a big role in this. I imagine there aren't too many brains more scrambled than Benoit's brain was. It was obvious he was getting worse than he used to be.

 

I want to hear about the childhood cases of iosolation. Is this a case of some shyness exaggerated or was this something to be worried about? He seemed to have friends from what I've heard.

[Loss]

There are some interesting stories in this book about his childhood, his isolationist tendencies, his body image obsession, and about how he even had a rep for being such a crazy fan before he got into wrestling.

 

You take someone with that disposition and put him into an environment like professional wrestling, put him through the rigours of training, put him on the drugs he had to take just to have a job, all while he manages to cultivate some strong friendships, almost all of which ended in tragedy.

My issue is, doesn't that description fit countless other wrestlers? What made Benoit different? The only unusual points with him seem to be the strange nature of his career (little workrate guy who became world champion) and the coincedence of several of his close friends dying over a relatively short period of time. Aside from that, what you wrote there perfectly describes God knows how many wrestlers who grew up being weirdo wrestling superfans.

 

Yes, and that has nothing to do with the point, which is that Chris Benoit was not a nice, normal guy until the last two days of his life, like his peers would have you believe.

 

That's the whole point of the book, not that wrestling took an otherwise normal person and turned him into a murderer.

[ohtani's jacket]

So I don't have to condone the Holocaust, but I also can't find it shocking or horrifying, either?

Your Schindler's List example doesn't work. The holocaust is something most people find horrifying (i.e. actually horrific, compared to exercises or punches to the face.) The movie portrays it as horrific. If you come out of that movie thinking the holocaust is entertaining you're a fucking idiot. The yakuza killing someone is considered shocking in Japan, but in movies they're glorified. A real punch in wrestling is horrifying, but a worked punch is awesome. Pro-wrestling glorifies violence and teaches us any dispute should be settled with violence. The idea that real disputes aren't settled with violence or that there is never any real violence in wrestling is preposterous. You don't have to condone it, but feigning horror is weak.

 

Far be it for me to tell you what is or isn't horrifying, but:

 

Wrestler kills his wife and child = horrifying

Wrestler gets punched in the face = not much

[S.L.L.]

A real punch in wrestling is horrifying, but a worked punch is awesome. Pro-wrestling glorifies violence and teaches us any dispute should be settled with violence.

It doesn't teach me that. I can't speak for you, but when I watch wrestling, I do so knowing full well that professional wrestling is fake, and that doing things in real life because they were awesome in a fictional context is fucking retarded.

 

The idea that real disputes aren't settled with violence or that there is never any real violence in wrestling is preposterous.

 

No one ever said either of these things.

 

I'd say that barring extreme circumstances, you shouldn't resort to violence to solve problems. Sometimes it happens. Sometimes it's justified, sometimes it's not. Either way, it doesn't follow that enjoying violence in a fictional context means one can't be horrified by real violence. To people who aren't raging sociopaths, there's a difference between watching a guy who you know isn't really getting killed pretending to get killed in an impressive fashion and watching a guy really get killed by a guy who really is trying to end someone's life. I can't believe I actually have to explain this to another human being. The fact that I do....THAT is horrifying.

[ohtani's jacket]

Such as what? They use less steroids (while still using steroids)?

 

Something really bad clearly happened to Yuji Nagata a few months ago when he had his not a stroke and he's back already. It doesn't look too good on the surface to say the least.

If you look at the number of 80s stars who've died, there's only two I can think of -- Jackie Sato (cancer) and Jumbo Tsuruta (died in surgery after hep B complications). Nobody's been able to explain this. The usual arguments are better training, less travel, lighter schedule... But a regimented, disciplined lifestyle may have something to do with it. Not saying that they don't go out drinking with yakuza, sleep around or take recreational drugs. Or that they don't use steriods or wrestle hurt. But the lifestyle isn't the same. They're in the gym the next morning, not only body building but doing the same exercises they learnt in training. They go jogging for miles. To me, the old AJW system was the best. The girls were kept out of harm's way as much as possible & there were mandatory retirements after 8 or 10 years. Personally, I think 8-10 years is long enough for a pro-wrestling career. Mandatory retirements gave the girls a chance to do something after wrestling, the majority getting married and starting families. That system fell apart, but Japanese wrestlers still train well, look after their bodies & eat well. And often they know when to call it quits. Kazuo Yamazaki has a book in Japan about stretching. Most of it which look like yoga poses. How many US wrestlers train like that? Benoit may have done all of the above, but if you checked his system with the system of the average Japanese wrestler, I'd wager that Benoit's body was filled with 10 times the amount of shit. Perhaps more.

 

You haven't explained why you don't think it's torture other than "Wrestlers will get hit anyway."

I don't consider it torture, because I don't think the majority of people who go through it consider it torture. It's not like I'd be in the dojo shouting, "Punch him again! Put him in a body bag, Keiichi!", it's just that the mentality doesn't surprise me. Not in the least. The mentality in Japan is that wrestling is about, "Who is the strongest?" and "What does it mean to be strong?" They train hard because they think pro-wrestlers should be legitimately tough. They consider themselves to be legitimately tough. In that case, they're often quite deluded, but the mentality is that it's important to be strong -- mentally and physically. As far as the stories go, they go from sounding like jock or frat stories to things that don't quite fit with Japanese manner. But they're plausible. As far as the punching goes, we don't know how hard Liger hit people, whether it hurt, the situation (did he want the guy to get back up and hit him?), how the trainee felt, how the other trainees felt. Random punch and a random story.

 

Anyway, our argument is taking away from the book, which is about Benoit and not Liger. The issue of blame and responsibility is always difficult in cases like this, and it's easy to backtrack and find points where people should've stepped in. Benoit was crazy all along is one theory, but doesn't explain a lot, like why Nancy married him and had a kid with him. And before anyone jumps on that & thinks I'm blaming Nancy, think of something more clever.

[Johnny Sorrow]

"Yakuza kills someone in a movie = cool.

Yakuza kills someone in real life = horrifying."

 

Ummm...

 

I love "The Godfather" and "Goodfellas" because they're fucking movies. When I see footage or pictures of actual mob hits, it's rather disturbing. I don't see how this talking point has any legs.

[ohtani's jacket]

It doesn't teach me that. I can't speak for you, but when I watch wrestling, I do so knowing full well that professional wrestling is fake, and that doing things in real life because they were awesome in a fictional context is fucking retarded.

The fact of the matter is that wrestling glorifies its own undercurrent, hence why so many wrestlers are marks for themselves. Wrestling doesn't portray an opposite reality as much as you'd like to think it does.

 

And your idea that you can enjoy things in a fictional context and find them horrifying in real life is weak. If something is horrific in real life, chances are it's portrayed that way in fiction. What would you say to a guy who came out of The Accused and said, "Great movie! Damn that was a good rape scene"?

 

I'd say that barring extreme circumstances, you shouldn't resort to violence to solve problems. Sometimes it happens. Sometimes it's justified, sometimes it's not. Either way, it doesn't follow that enjoying violence in a fictional context means one can't be horrified by real violence. To people who aren't raging sociopaths, there's a difference between watching a guy who you know isn't really getting killed pretending to get killed in an impressive fashion and watching a guy really get killed by a guy who really is trying to end someone's life. I can't believe I actually have to explain this to another human being. The fact that I do....THAT is horrifying.

You seem to find a lot of stuff horrifying. Makes me wonder if you function OK.

 

Pity there's no parallel in wrestling between a guy being beaten to death in real life & a guy being beaten to death in the ring, but when wrestling starts running those stories I'm sure you'll be the first to enjoy it in a fictional context.

[ohtani's jacket]

"Yakuza kills someone in a movie = cool.

Yakuza kills someone in real life = horrifying."

 

Ummm...

 

I love "The Godfather" and "Goodfellas" because they're fucking movies. When I see footage or pictures of actual mob hits, it's rather disturbing. I don't see how this talking point has any legs.

The point is whether you're surprised that mob hits ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

[Guest totalmma]

Again I have yet to read the book and so am only basing stuff off what's been leaked in threads.

 

Have you read Matt Hughes autobiography yet?

Pre-murder of his family do the stories about Benoit make him come off any more insane, sadistic, or psychotic than Matt Hughes portrays himself?

 

Being a sadistic psycho in a subculture where that is normative behavior doesn't make killing your own family any more predictable.

This is an interesting point. I would imagine I am the only one here who knew both Benoit and Hughes. The comparison seems strange as the two are on opposite ends of the personality spectrum. Hughes the sadist is a kind of sadist people in America are used to dealing with. He's the prototypical Alpha male and just like 100s of spoiled jocks you knew in high school. The difference is that Hughes was never beaten down by life the way your average jock is. He never had to work changing oil or at a desk job where that kind of temperment is removed and adult life begins. Hughes is much more like Kevin Nash than Chris Benoit.

 

I can't imagine that you would ever see Matt boil over like that. He says what he wants to say and never lets anything build up.

 

Benoit, of course, was Benoit. The opposite personality. The shy loner. Constantly frightened and intimidated by life.

[Bob Morris]

If a pro wrestling students is being unruly and refusing to cooperate with anything, then the veteran might be justified in punching the student in the face. And while some people may not approve, they could understand why it was done if the student was unruly and truly acting out of line.

 

But punching a student in the face when said student is being cooperative and not actng unruly is, in a word, wrong. Like Bix said, if you want to learn how to deal with pain in wrestling, you take bumps, because that's what you are supposed to take in a pro wrestling match. During a match, you do not take actual punches in which the person delivering the punch intends to injure you.

 

And no, I'm not surprised this stuff happens. But just because I'm not surprised doesn't mean I'm going to declare it's justified, because it isn't.