MikeCampbell Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Without Heyman popularizing a new style of wrestling that made it easier for less talented workers to make it in WCW/WWE, Benoit would have never been on the big stage. Yeah, he most likely would have. Benoit, Malenko, and Guerrero were brought into WCW through their deal with New Japan. Bischoff had wanted to start the Cruiserweight Division since at least '94 (there were mentions of it in PWI), and he needed smaller wrestlers who could work a faster more exciting style than guys like Flair, Sting, and Luger. They were the perfect fit. They also brought in Sabu around the same time they brought Benoit in, and he was long gone from ECW. Scott Norton was also hired by WCW due to their deal with New Japan, and he never worked ECW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indikator Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 As I have only seen little of Benoit in ECW, can anybody tell me if every ECW match with him had hardcore elements? I can only remember his famous powerbomb with Rocco Rock through a table and Sabu or Taz right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Not that I can recall. Does anyone know when he left ECW? I think the Three Way Dance show in April '95 is the last ECW home video release he was on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted June 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 His last shows (other than the one-off in August) were in Florida the first week of May. Then he stopped coming for visa reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomk Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Benoit may have been working a dangerous style already, but it was Heyman who paved the way for him to be able to work that style successfully in the United States. I am also skeptical of the idea that Benoit would have taken countless chairshots or done a diving headbutt off the top of a steel cage if it wasn't for the Heyman inspired glorification of stunt wrestling. I've just started reading the book, but my memory is Benoit wasn't working a ECW stuntman style in WCW untill Russo showed up. Before that there was big diving headbutt onto a chair in a PPV tag match and a diving headbutt of the top of cage in another tag. There was alot of brawling ringside and through the crowd. PE, now those guys were going through tables in every match. those guys were working ECW crashdummy stuff. But don't remember a ton of chairshots when Benoit was teamed with McMichael. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 The closest I can think of in WCW, other than the cage dives, was when he was feuding with Sullivan. I remember once when Sullivan broke a wooden chair over his head, and another angle when he hit him in the back of the neck with some sort of club or stick maybe and broke it (the weapon, not Benoit's neck). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Cooke Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 He dove off the cage to get into the finals on the live Thunder before Superbrawl against Bryan Adams/Horace Hogan. It was also a Thunder with Goldberg challenging Austin to come on Jay Leno. It was the last attempt at making Thunder seem special before they just ignored it completely. He did the high dive 3 times with Russo from October 99 - January 2000 (vs. Malenko in Cage, vs. Jarrett Ladder, vs. Jarrett cage) EDIT: there may have been a forth on TV in a 3 way tag with Hart/Nash/Hall/Sid/Jarrett/Goldberg but I am not positive on that one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Morris Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 The larger point stressed in the book is that Benoit was simply doing the flying headbutt with his arms spread out to the side to begin with. Noted in the book is that Dynamite Kid did it differently from Benoit by putting his hands in front of him to less. Not to mention there was a bit about Harley Race warning both the Kid and Benoit to not perform the flying headbutt on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boondocks Kernoodle Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 I never understood why Benoit loved that move so much. Maybe he thought of it as a tribute to his hero, because I always thought the diving headbutt looked like crap. You'd figure a guy who was so bent on making his moves look realistic would have done away with a move that obviously missed every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 I never understood why Benoit loved that move so much. Maybe he thought of it as a tribute to his hero, because I always thought the diving headbutt looked like crap. You'd figure a guy who was so bent on making his moves look realistic would have done away with a move that obviously missed every time. Not only that, but Benoit did a lot of stupid shit during his WWE stint. The german suplexes overkill is one of the dumbest thing I've seen. SUre he didn't bridge and the suplexes were flat as hell, but it still had to hurt the guy, especially with a bad neck. And what a bad idea this was from a work standpoint. Instead of getting big reaction out of one move, let's kill any reaction you can get before you reach the right quota. That was stupid, that was bad wrestling, that was pure "workrate" jerkoff. The fact that Harley Race of all people, told him to stop the flying headbutt after his neck got fucked up, and he wouldn't listen is telling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 Really though, all the top workers in WWE were to some extent doing stupid shit at that time, as they all felt the pressure to keep up with Kurt Angle who upped the ante in terms of the pace and amount of high spots expected in main event matches and was almost universally praised for doing so. It got to the point where people who tried to instill selling and psychology in their matches with Kurt were criticised for not being in peak shape and forcing him to have to slow down. Benoit was the worst offender, but that isn't surprising given his insane drive to be the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted June 6, 2008 Report Share Posted June 6, 2008 I don't know if it's fair to blame all this stuff on ECW anyway. Benoit and his ilk were more influenced by the Japanese style than anything else. He was already Super J-Cup Champion Wild Pegasus before he ever set foot in the ECW arena. If anything, while he was there he dumbed his style down to the usual brawling stuff, before going back to his usual repetoire once he arrived in WCW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 You may declare victory. I'm not trying to declare victory. Looking at the responses from others, every time you try to further "explain" your point (and it gets further removed from what you wrote), it seems like several people jump in to point out you're talking nonsense. I'm having flashbacks. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 Really though, all the top workers in WWE were to some extent doing stupid shit at that time, as they all felt the pressure to keep up with Kurt Angle who upped the ante in terms of the pace and amount of high spots expected in main event matches and was almost universally praised for doing so. It got to the point where people who tried to instill selling and psychology in their matches with Kurt were criticised for not being in peak shape and forcing him to have to slow down. Benoit was the worst offender, but that isn't surprising given his insane drive to be the best. And look where Kurt is now . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 FWIW, Benoit was using the diving headbutt from the top rope to the floor against Liger in '93.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 FWIW, Benoit was using the diving headbutt from the top rope to the floor against Liger in '93.. Paul Heyman told him to do that. "Those pesky internet kids!" John, wondering what's wrong with the world when I defending Paul... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest totalmma Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 Oh man, someone picking out individual sentences and then completely misunderstanding the larger points being made. I'm having flashbacks. I do think that jdw has revolutionized literary criticism. No longer do sentences form paragraphs. No longer do paragraphs express ideas. Each sentence must be defended on its own merits. Its live or die time sentences! What was actually written: "The book does a good job of succinctly summing up the Paul Heyman led company: it was a promotion that emphasized the ECW brand name over any individual wrestler." I think everyone is agreeing with this, the central point. "Heyman was one of the first to recognize wrestlers as the disposable commodities they are." I think everyone is agreeing with this. Wrestlers came and went from ECW at a dizzying pace. "He pushed them to the brink of their physical well being and when they couldn't continue at that pace, he replaced them with someone else." This is maybe not as articulate as I'd like it to be. Look at the ECW cast. How many of them are still in the business in any significant way? How many of them would still be in the business pre workrate/stunt show style? I still maintain that Heyman played a huge role in making both of those styles palatable to the mainstream wrestling fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest totalmma Posted June 7, 2008 Report Share Posted June 7, 2008 I showed those sentences who is fucking boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 ECW got Benoit into WCW, but he only got into WWE because they had a chance to stick it to the competition by signing away a whole bunch of their talent in one swoop. Would he have made it there eventually? Maybe, or perhaps he would have been part of that vast sea of WCW midcarders who fell off the face of the earth after the company folded (yes I know he probably would have went back to Japan but I'm referring to a US fan point of view). How much should WWE bear for what happened to not only Benoit but Eddy too? Both of them nearly doubled in body size and roids/HGH was pretty much the main factor in Eddy's death and probably a major part of Benoit's. It's shocking to watch the Nitros from 1997 that run on WWE 24/7 and see how anorexic Eddy looks, then they show a WWE PPV from 2001-2002 and he's not only doubled in size but he's sporting Snitsky-esque acne. From reading the book, it seems a major theme that people are sleeping on is that more than once it's mentioned Benoit started taking steroids early. Definitely by age 16 he was using. He was 40 when he died, so that's 24 years straight of drugs pumping through his body in doses that obviously increased throughout, peaking with his WWE years. That alone would seem to be cause for potential problems, before you even factor in the swiss-cheese brain from years of headbutts and concussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeCampbell Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 He pushed them to the brink of their physical well being and when they couldn't continue at that pace, he replaced them with someone else. Name one person who left ECW because of this. The vast majority left over money. Either because Paul wasn't paying them or because they'd gotten an offer from WCW or WWF. It's hard to say he cast them aside for not being able to 'go' when Tommy Dreamer was still in a prominent role in the year 2000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest totalmma Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 He pushed them to the brink of their physical well being and when they couldn't continue at that pace, he replaced them with someone else. Name one person who left ECW because of this. The vast majority left over money. Either because Paul wasn't paying them or because they'd gotten an offer from WCW or WWF. It's hard to say he cast them aside for not being able to 'go' when Tommy Dreamer was still in a prominent role in the year 2000. Welcome to several days ago. It's true that sentence isn't very good and doesn't speak to the overall idea I was going for. This is more what I meant, posted earlier in the thread here. I wasn't focusing on ECW there, more on the overall effects of the ECW influence. This is maybe not as articulate as I'd like it to be. Look at the ECW cast. How many of them are still in the business in any significant way? How many of them would still be in the business pre workrate/stunt show style? I still maintain that Heyman played a huge role in making both of those styles palatable to the mainstream wrestling fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benbeeach Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 How much should WWE bear for what happened to not only Benoit but Eddy too? Both of them nearly doubled in body size and roids/HGH was pretty much the main factor in Eddy's death and probably a major part of Benoit's. It's shocking to watch the Nitros from 1997 that run on WWE 24/7 and see how anorexic Eddy looks, then they show a WWE PPV from 2001-2002 and he's not only doubled in size but he's sporting Snitsky-esque acne. It should also be noted that they were both freaking CUT during this period, just not ginormous. Also, ITT: Choose You're Words Carefully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest totalmma Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Also, ITT: Choose You're Words Carefully John D Williams is on the prowl, using his extensive legal training to parse each word individually for accuracy and style. It is this attention to detail that has made certain every wrestling post in the last 10 years has carefully cited dates and locations of every match the subject ever had in their illustrious careers. This is what high end posting is all about. Choose carefully Benbeeach or to the woodpile with you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benbeeach Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 I put You're instead of Your, lord help me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Standard Snowden. He writes something that doesn't make sense. It's pointed out. He tries to defend it. The defense is pointed out to be wrong. He tries to morph it: "What I really meant was..." The morph is wrong as well. Wash, rinse, repeat. What's funny about this one is that you're clinging to it being jdw vs. Snowden. The reality is a half dozen other posters have pointed out your nonsense as you keep trying to "explain" and morph. It's not like you can write those posters off as my proteges - I don't think most of them even like me. But keep spinning, Brody. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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