Wrestlemania

[Bob Morris]

The problem of not developing new stars has been a problem throughout pro wrestling since the days of Vince's initial expansion and more promoters finding out what they could do with putting their shows on cable TV. It was then either keep the established guys on top or take the guy that most resembles who is either the top draw for the other guy or resembles a past top draw.

 

Of the top players mentioned, Cena/Taker would likely draw more interest for WM as it hasn't been done in a meaningful fashion for a long time. I don't think people have that same interest for Taker/Michaels because it's based around whether or not Michaels can end somebody's "streak" again, whereas with Cena/Taker, you could actually do a storyline about how far Cena has come in his career, but is he good enough to beat Taker this time around?

 

Other matchups they could do wouldn't likely happen as there isn't a selling point unless somebody changes alignment (case in point: Mysterio vs. Michaels, but it would need one of them to turn heel, and we all know Mysterio doesn't work well as a heel and Michaels doesn't want to turn into one).

 

But anyway, this whole premise of "nobody creates new stars in a different mold" has been present in wrestling for many years and is not a product of WWE dominating the industry. And WWE ended up doing it because their hand was forced... today, it's harder to force their hand because they still have the DVD market and WWE 24/7 to make money from, two things they didn't have in 1995-96 when the company was truly in danger of going bankrupt.

[Bob Morris]

Actually I think the economy is to some extent a BS excuse (sure it explains some of the decline but not all of it), as UFC PPV business has remained strong, which indicates that if WWE had matches people wanted to pay to see their PPV business would have held up. I mean, UFC's latest B-level afternoon PPV show from the UK headlined by Dan Henderson vs. Rich Franklin outdrew Rumble in North America by over 50,000 buys.

UFC was outdrawing WWE before the bubble burst on the economy, and it continues to outdraw it on a smaller scale after the bubble burst on the economy. I wouldn't have disagreed had that been your original point. But you mentioned the Rumble being down from last year, which I do attribute to the economy.

 

I can see both sides, but I would argue the Rumble's drop in business would not have been as large if the company had been working to promote fresh matchups. The movie industry didn't really suffer during the Great Depression because new films that people like were being trotted out. UFC generally does a better job of promoting than WWE and seems to be trying to find fresh matchups, so it doesn't appear to be suffering as much from the economic downturn.

[Bob Morris]

And regarding why TV ratings for Raw have been up, that's likely because it's "free entertainment" and people are likely to watch more TV to escape from the reality that is the economic downturn.

 

Smackdown, on the other hand, is suffering big time. It drew a 1.9 last week.

[Tim Evans]

HHH, Orton, Cena, probably a Batista appearance, Jericho, JBL, Mysterio, Edge, Undertaker, Michaels... These are your headliners, more or less.

 

Is there a fresh matchup available between *any* of them that makes any sense at all to be running? I guess Orton vs. Batista is coming and that could have some life to it. Aside from that, it's pretty much all been done many times over hasn't it?

Jericho/Mysterio, Taker/Mysterio. That's the only two I could see. Of course Cena/Taker could rule and should be the feud for next years Mania if Taker is really retiring.

[Loss]

Jericho/Taker has also never been done, but I'm not sure how that dynamic would work.

[goodhelmet]

I usually don't involve myself with show predictions because I do not watch enough of the current product to know what is fresh and what isn't. However, with that being said, I am actually looking forward to this Mania even though everyone and their mother is shitting on it. Hell, last year, I thought Show vs. Mayweather was the dumbest looking match on paper ever assembled and it ended up dominating everyone's MOTY lists. Flair-Michaels recieved the exact same criticism that Michaels-Taker is getting (2 washed up has beens, blah blah blah) and everyone agreed it was a great match. Edge-Taker was another favorite. The three-way for the title seems to be a new Mania staple so why should this year be any different? I like the occasional spotfest and I have enjoyed every MITB match they have had so far... sue me. Let me run down the card so far...

 

Money in the Bank- Besides Kane and mark Henry, everyone else in this match looks game for a spotfest. Even then, the TLC match with Kane (TLC4?) was pretty damn fun. He'll stay out of the way, probably chokeslam some people off the ladder into some tables and let Shelton do his mandatory crazy spot. Then they can throw the "Can CM Punk go back to back?" story in there. Can Christian re-establish himelf in WWE? Everyone here would mark out huge if Henry took a bump off a ladder into a triple stacked table or some stupid shit. Looking forward to it.

 

25 Diva Battle Royale- Piss break

 

Jeff Hardy vs. Matt Hardy- It really depends how much time they give them. This can go the way of Hardy-Rey and disappear into history. Or it might just be possible that they give them 15-20 minutes and they blow the roof off the place... especially if they play it up like the Edge-Hardy feud as if they really hate each other and we get a nasty match out of it.

 

JBL vs. Rey - These two have had a few good ten minute TV matches. This won't get that much time but this should be fun. Could be like last year's JBL-Finlay match where people go in with too many expectations, but when they step back, think to themselves how good it really was. Is this even a confirmed match yet? WWE.com doesn't have it up on its pages.

 

HBK vs. Taker - Fuck it, I enjoy the hell out of this match-up. Ground Zero? Check. Hell in a Cell? Check. Rumble 98? Check. 15 minutes to end Rumble 2007? Check. This goes at least half an hour, Taker been really pretty damn good the last couple of years, and HBK deserved much praise for making the feud with Jericho work and did not offend me at all in those matches. I am down for this.

 

Tag Team match - Don't really know anything about this one but unifying the tag titles is a good thing, right?

 

Edge vs. John Cena vs. Big Show - Will probably end up like the past three-ways sans Benoit's title win. Give them 15 minutes, non-stop spots, a bunch of nearfalls, and I have no problem with this match. Again, is this match really doomed to fail?

 

HHH vs. Randy Orton - They made it NO DQ? Good! Give HHH his gimmicks. Who gives a fuck if it makes the match more entertaining? A heap of praise has been thrown at Orton's feet lately so fuckin A! Another match that I don't understnad all the hate for since there is actually real drama as to who will win. If it goes on last, then yeah, it will look like a Trips win but it doesn't really matter.

 

Jericho's Mystery Match - I am reserving judgment on this until it actually happens. Jericho v. Lawler? Eh, Lawler sucks shit on WWE PPVs but excels in gyms in front of 250 people. Let this main event the ROH show the night before and I would be excited. Jericho vs. Rourke? WWE has a track record of successful celebrity matches. With Jericho at the top of his game, this could be the new Bigelow-LT, new Show-Mayweather, etc. Jericho vs. Flair? Professional career choice ramifications aside, is this a bad thing from a fan's perspective? Do we really ever expect these old guys to stay retired? Jericho vs. Steamboat? Fuck it, let them roll on the mat and do headlock spots for 15 minutes. I'm ready for it. When you have a whole crowd go batshit if Steamboat can pull off a fucking Skin the Cat, everyone will forget how stupid it sounds on paper and how stupid Stemboat would be to put himself in that position.

 

I mean fuck, if these are the 9 matches that make up Mania, this looks like an insanely loaded card to me. But then again, I usually just wait until the end of the year to watch WWE PPVs.

[Marty]

Actually I think the economy is to some extent a BS excuse (sure it explains some of the decline but not all of it), as UFC PPV business has remained strong, which indicates that if WWE had matches people wanted to pay to see their PPV business would have held up. I mean, UFC's latest B-level afternoon PPV show from the UK headlined by Dan Henderson vs. Rich Franklin outdrew Rumble in North America by over 50,000 buys.

UFC was outdrawing WWE before the bubble burst on the economy, and it continues to outdraw it on a smaller scale after the bubble burst on the economy. I wouldn't have disagreed had that been your original point. But you mentioned the Rumble being down from last year, which I do attribute to the economy.

 

Survivor Series was also down compared to '07, and that show built strongly around the return of John Cena.

[kjh]

UFC was outdrawing WWE before the bubble burst on the economy, and it continues to outdraw it on a smaller scale after the bubble burst on the economy.

Actually on PPV in North America UFC is outdrawing WWE on a much larger scale than ever before. Domestic WWE PPV business is now so bad that their traditional 2nd biggest PPV of the year will probably be outdrawn by every UFC PPV this year, barring a major decline in UFC's PPV business.

[S.L.L.]

Not to bog this down by stating the obvious, but we're not going to know whether or not this card is a disaster until it happens.

 

WrestleMania 23 felt like it was going to be the biggest thing ever...and it was.

 

WrestleMania 24 felt like it was going to be a pale shadow of 23...and it was almost as good, maybe even as good, maybe even better.

 

Starrcade '97 felt like it was going to be the biggest thing ever...and it was a shit card that was the beginning of WCW's downward spiral.

 

WrestleMania 4 looked like a terrible idea on paper...and it was a terrible idea in execution.

 

I'm not saying one shouldn't have certain expectations based on available evidence, and certainly the build to Mania 25 feels more like the build to Mania 4 or 24 than it does Mania 23 or Starrcade '97. But I agree with Will that the card itself, while it probably could be better (much rather have a Cena/Edge singles match, much rather have Jericho/Lawler, much rather have Show try to get his revenge on Money Mayweather, etc.), doesn't actually look bad. Fuck, I buy WrestleMania pretty much every year unless the card looks like total shit. I'm probably not going to stop now.

 

As for the financial end of it...yeah, they're probably gonna suffer. And yeah, that's partially the economy's fault, and yeah, it's also because of the anemic build to the show. But it's WrestleMania, man. I may be a jaded, overanalytical smark douchebag, but I'm still a wrestling fan. When the day comes that I can no longer get behind 'Mania, I think it's time that I pack it in.

[Bob Morris]

Rourke at Wrestlemania not enticing.

 

Now I know this space is normally reserved for columns on sports where the outcomes aren't predetermined but I can't help myself. I got a few e-mails today from the WWE and Mickey Rourke's people hyping up the fact that Rourke will be at this year's WrestleMania in Houston.

 

This isn't really news. Rourke first mentioned in January that he would be at WrestleMania but it wasn't yet known in what capacity. Well, two months later we now know. Rourke will be … wait for it, wait for it … sitting ringside at Reliant Stadium. Riveting, I know.

 

Of course, that probably won't be where he ends up. My guess is at some point he will rip off whatever hideous outfit he has on and reveal his Randy "The Ram" Robinson outfit and maybe even level Chris Jericho with a "Ram Jam" from the top rope.

 

You see, Rourke is apparently going to be in attendance to support former wrestlers Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat, "Rowdy" Roddy Piper and Jimmy "Superfly" Snuka as they face Jericho, who is currently working an angle where he belittles former wrestlers grasping for one last moment in the spotlight. He has attacked all three, as well as Ric Flair, in past episodes of WWE Raw, continuously mentioning they are as pathetic as Rourke's down-and-out character in The Wrestler.

 

The problem is there is no longer a buzz around Rourke being at WrestleMania. Maybe if the event took place in February that would be a different story. But two months have passed since Rourke jokingly challenged Jericho while doing a red carpet interview at the SAG Awards and later backed off during an underwhelming segment on Larry King Live. It has also been a month since Rourke lost his bid to win an Academy Award and the film is hardly in any theatres anymore as the DVD is set to be released late next month.

 

While the WWE was able to garner mainstream attention for the past two WrestleManias with Donald Trump putting up his head of "hair" against Vince McMahon's in Detroit and Floyd "Money" Mayweather fighting Paul "Big Show" Wight in Orlando last year, I can't imagine many casual fans forking over $50 to see Rourke sitting ringside. I can't even imagine many forking that much over if he decides to wrestle. We've already seen him in all his roided up glory grapple in the ring. It's not the same novelty as seeing Trump smack McMahon in the face and shave his hair or "Big Show" choke slam Mayweather and stand on his chest. Those are the ESPN and CNN moments that the WWE is looking for. I'm just not sure how much run Rourke hitting Jericho is going to get once April rolls around.

 

I guess the worst part about this, if it actually happens, is seeing Steamboat, Snuka and Piper in the ring again. They looked far worse than Rourke did in The Wrestler when they appeared on television and seeing them actually get in the ring at this point would be more depressing than the fate of Rourke's character in the movie. The movie was a disturbing look at the lives of wrestlers unable to hang up their spandex tights and knee high boots when they should have. The last things fans need to see is that fiction played out for them in reality on pay-per-view.

[Resident Evil]

The two things I'm mostly looking forward to at Wrestlemania are the Undertaker vs Michaels and Steamboat. If given enough time, Undertaker vs Michaels could be one of the best WWE/WWF matches ever.

 

I don't see why anybody would buy Wrestlemania unless you're a new, hardcore fan and/or rich. Especially in this technological day and age.

[Guest Some Guy]

HBK/Taker should be really good. I loved their series in 97/98 and their work in the Rumble a few years ago. The rest should be pretty decent but it is really nothing new and exciting.

 

I imagine that the only thing Steamboat will do is a few armdrags like he did with Punk in ROH and maybe a crossbody off the top. I have no interest in seeing Piper or Snuka in the ring at this point or at any point in the last 10+ years. It's too bad that Hogan and Austin can't do it because they are really the only ones who would provide a decent payoff for what started out as a pretty damn good angle. Though, I imagine that Jericho will take the Ram Jam and Austin will run in and hit a stunner and then the legends and Rourke will all drink beer to Austin's music and that will at least provide a big pop at the end of the match.

[JHawk]

I'll order it because it's Mania, but yeah, the card looks underwhelming.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

--Fox 8, an Australian cable station, listed this as the order of events for tomorrow

Nicole Scherzinger sings America the Beautiful

JBL vs. Rey Mysterio for IC title

Money in the Bank ladder match

Chris Jericho vs. Ricky Steamboat & Roddy Piper & Jimmy Snuka. It is now a gauntlet match and not a handicap match. Ric Flair and Mickey Rourke are billed at ringside

John Morrison & The Miz vs. Carlito & Primo Colon for the tag title unification

Matt Hardy vs. Jeff Hardy Extreme rules match

Kid Rock short concert

25 Divas Battle Royal. Santino Marella and Mae Young are listed as the final two participants that have yet to be made public to this point

Edge vs. John Cena vs. Big Show for the World title

Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker

HHH vs. Randy Orton for WWE title with the title changing hands if HHH uses the sledge hammer

[MikeCampbell]

I very much enjoyed the show, although I thought the ending of the main event was complete horse shit. Steamboat still has it!

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Well, that match order was all wrong!

 

MITB was awesome. Shelton and Kofi had an ugly moment in there but everything else was great.

 

Divas battle royal was hilariously rushed. They didn't even get intros and the old divas like Sunny and Jackie were barely mentioned, even in passing (Molly's name wasn't even mentioned until she was eliminated.)

 

Piper actually did a dropkick and a sunset flip against Jericho. But Steamboat, as expected, put in a really good performance. Obviously he was extremely rusty and he's also 55 or so, but he did all his signature spots and took some bumps he probably shouldn't have. It was just nice to see him back for one night.

 

Hardys match was good enough. I'm glad Matt went over. His new tights are an improvement over those awful pants he's been wearing for years.

 

JBL must be really hurting to get squashed in such a manner. Rey was supposed to look like The Joker but looked like a terrible indy Doink instead. Amazing.

 

Michaels-Undertaker was even more awesome than I expected. In my humble opinion, with which none of you will likely agree, it may have been the best match of Taker's career. I'd give it *****. It was everything a Wrestlemania main event should be. Too bad it wasn't the main event.

 

Three-way was good enough. I like Cena but I'm so tired of him and Edge as champ that I sort of wish Show had won. His ECW title run was fun until his back really started flaring up and it would be a change of pace.

 

HHH-Orton was unbelievably disappointing. They tried to surprise people by having both guys hit their finishes in the first two minutes but everything else was standard and formulaic. Standard and formulaic works a lot of the time but for a Wrestlemania main event, especially between two guys who have had so many matches before, you expect a little more. And HHH going over turned me off, but Orton winning wouldn't have made it a good match.

 

Overall thumbs up show but the last match could have made it a classic, and it wasn't.

[sek69]

The JBL thing was puzzling. I figure he's hurting and all, but he could have had a regular match and just let Rey do all the bumping and have the usual slip-on-a-banana-peel ending. Instead we got a 20 second match and JBL having a tantrum and quitting for his big WM sendoff.

 

I'm surprised JR didn't pull out the "he took his ball and went home" line for the occasion.

 

 

Also I would bet that the match listing posted above was the scheduled list at one point (Rey mentioned in a radio interview that he was under the belief his match was going to open the show), but WWE has been known to flip out as of late when stuff hits the net.

[goodhelmet]

Pretty much everything except the main lived up to my expectations. JBL-Rey was dissapointing since these two have had killer ten minute matches but it fits and I am not complaining. Jericho is a God. The three-way was fun, fun, fun... much better than the 3-ways from the past few years. The main was an ok match with a shit finish but not the type of match that this show needed.

[kjh]

From Dave Meltzer's Monday news update - WWE tries to spin bad Mania fiscal performance:

 

--WWE sent out a press release saying Wrestlemania grossed $52 million total, noting $43 million PPV, $7.4 million in ticket sales (they included Fan Axxess) and $1.5 million in merchandise sales. I don't know how they are figuring the PPV revenue because there are different currencies, different prices including HD, and nothing is going to be broken down this early. They may just be using a 780-785,000 worldwide number, but that's not definite. It's notable they didn't break down the number of buys estimated. Depending on how they are figuring the number, it could be more buys than that, or less, but under any figuring, it's way under company projections.