Wrestling Myth Busters

[sek69]

This mainly is heard when a discussion of a piss poor women's match occurs. I have only heard it applied to a men's contest when its Goldberg/Lesnar being discussed.

 

The reason WHY a match was bad.

 

 

" Its the crowds fault!"

 

I can see this to a degree, sometimes there's a TV show or PPV where the crowd is just blah no matter what the guys (or girls) do, but a lot of the times the wrestlers make it worse on themselves by not trying to engage the crowd more when they sense people are getting bored. That's why John Cena is really good at professional wrestling no matter what the net nerds say about his "workrate", very seldom does the crowd not care when he makes an appearance.

[Guest Kenta Batista]

I agree with you about Cena. The man can get a reaction.

 

I have seen tons of good matches that the crowd wasn't into or the crowd was shitting on. I am talking about the level of performance in the ring and the final in ring product. Its like Lesnar/Goldberg (with or without a hot crowd) still stunk up the place. Despite what Heyman and other may say today Benoit/Malenko put on WONDERFUL matches in ECW but they were boring the shit out of people. The fans in The Arena sitting on their hands while Benoit/Malenko put on a clinic in the ring did not effect the outcome.Both men were trying to work the match like Hogan/Rock did a few years ago....only problem is...neither guy is Hogan or The Rock. Around that time Lesnar and Goldberg marks were blaming the poor work and match on the audience. WWE has piped the audience in the DVD release and its STILL a boring match.

 

I know crowd noise can make a match seem more epic then it actually is and make everything on that night seem larger-than-life (Goldberg/Hogan on Nitro), but when McCool/Maryse get in the ring for their daily cardio routine and people are shitting on it...the match wasn't bad because of the crowd. It was because of the workers. It kinda touches onto something that was mentioned earlier in this thread about how some people talk with the wrestlers perspective on things (them not being wrestlers themselves) while totally ignoring and pissing on the crowd and fans (which they are) and calling everyone marks. There are a lot of Konnan's when it comes to women's wrestling and bad matches in general.

 

" The crowd doesn't like it? Fuck them! They are marks! This was a five star match that was ruined because of the crowd noise!"

[Bix]

I remember the Malenko-Guerrero series (since I'm guessing you meant that) in ECW getting over fine everywhere. There was a small group of fans chanting "boring" at one Florida show but that was it. A better example would be the Queens ECW fans during the Rey-Juvi matches.

[Ditch]

I don't think people who rabidly defend diva matches really need to be worried about, let alone constitute a widespread myth/meme.

[Jingus]

During the Diva Thread at DVDVR, there did seem to be a whole bunch of people who said that people like Kelly Kelly were decent workers, or that it didn't matter cuz they're hot chicks and thus don't need to be any good at wrestling.

[Sean Liska]

Despite what Heyman and other may say today Benoit/Malenko put on WONDERFUL matches in ECW but they were boring the shit out of people. The fans in The Arena sitting on their hands while Benoit/Malenko put on a clinic in the ring did not effect the outcome.

I don't know about that. The Malenko-Guerrero series got over huge in Philly. Their final match had people crying at ringside as Guerrero circled the ring and said goodbye. They made a whole TV show out of it because it got over so strongly.

[Kronos]

I don't think people who rabidly defend diva matches really need to be worried about, let alone constitute a widespread myth/meme.

Speaking as a fan of women's rasslin, I say, "Harsh, Double-D, harsh."

 

But true. There's plenty of reasons why divas matches don't get over, and it has nothing to do with the crowds being dead. Give them something to care about, and they'll go nuts. Watch Mickie/Trish at Mania 22, Lita/Trish on RAW 12/04, or Lita/Victoria in the steel cage on 2003 -- and you'll find a crowd who's ridiculously into it. I like the current girls, but aside from Mickie, people just don't care. They're not being given a product to care about.

 

I don't like it when a great match is happening, and the crowd is practically silent. But how often does that happen, really? If the crowd's not into a match, it's most likely because the match is boring -- and this is athletic theater, so I blame something about the performance if the audience is snoozing. Conversely, a great crowd can make a mediocre match into something outrageously fun. See Hogan/Warrior, Hogan/Andre, and Hogan/Rock as perfect examples. Workrate-wise, they range from borderline bad to just okay to pretty good depending on your mood and which wrestlers you like. But the crowd takes those matches to another level.

 

Another note: the crowds cared for the Knockouts in early 2008 because they were given a product to care about. Fun characters and exciting wrestling = a good crowd, usually.

[Bob Morris]

In watching Smackdown last week (first time I tuned into that show in years), it looks like the crowd cared about Melina, and about Gail Kim to some extent. Both share a similar trait in that they have charisma, which is what Trish, Lita and Victoria had and what Mickie has as well.

 

The Knockouts got crowd's attentions because they were into Awesome Kong, ODB, Roxxi, Gail Kim, and then got into Angelina Love and Velvet Sky when they turned heel. Of course, Kim and Roxxi are both gone, so that took away two of their most charismatic wrestlers.

 

What it often comes down to is that charismatic wrestlers can find ways to make fans care about a match, particularly if the buildup to it is strong. Wrestlers who aren't as strong in the charisma department need to find other ways to pull the fans into the match.

[Kronos]

In watching Smackdown last week (first time I tuned into that show in years), it looks like the crowd cared about Melina, and about Gail Kim to some extent. Both share a similar trait in that they have charisma, which is what Trish, Lita and Victoria had and what Mickie has as well.

 

The Knockouts got crowd's attentions because they were into Awesome Kong, ODB, Roxxi, Gail Kim, and then got into Angelina Love and Velvet Sky when they turned heel. Of course, Kim and Roxxi are both gone, so that took away two of their most charismatic wrestlers.

 

What it often comes down to is that charismatic wrestlers can find ways to make fans care about a match, particularly if the buildup to it is strong. Wrestlers who aren't as strong in the charisma department need to find other ways to pull the fans into the match.

I didn't see last week's SD, though I am hearing it's been good since the draft. If the crowd cared about melina, it'd be the first time since her Face return that they have. . .

 

Your comments about charisma exactly line up with what I was trying to say. Rarely are there bad crowds -- though of course it happens. But there are bad wrestlers. Or bad characters. Or bad storylines. Or bad show-pacing. Or even bad announcers (for the tv audience) -- just watch those horrible English commentaries on the Noah shows ROH sells to see how bad announcing can ruin a decent match.

[sek69]

I don't think people who rabidly defend diva matches really need to be worried about, let alone constitute a widespread myth/meme.

 

That reminds me, what's creepier: people who fetishize women wrestling or the people who relentlessly bash it to the point you wonder if they have some IRL issues with women?

 

 

I mean, it's not breaking new ground to say women's wrestling isn't as good as men's, or that the women are hired primarily for looks and/or potential stroke material for Vince. You have to keep it in perspective I think. Women wrestling now is light years better than the 80s Moolah era atrocities. Watch a WWF show from the late 70s/early 80s and see how the typical hairpull contest between two Moolah students make any diva match on next week's Raw look like Joe vs Kobashi.

[Ditch]

People who gripe about divas are watching the wrong wrestling show. I used to hate time spent on matches that were 95% sub-standard and 1% actively good, because it took time away from top male wrestlers. Now I have no problem because I watch wrestling promotions that focus on wrestling. And even then, the ladies would take up like one or two-thirds of one segment on a TV show, hardly a deal-breaker unless the show is pretty marginal overall.

 

I will agree that Finlay worked wonders but it's still rarely much better than watchable outside of instances where two good athletes who started outside WWE or TNA are in there.

 

Overall I can't imagine getting really worked up about it one way or another. Though I'm still amused by people who were just stunned by how good Trish became, as though no woman on the planet had managed to reach that level before.

[El-P]

So, is Benoit vs Malenko vs Hogg Wild a very good match that was ruined by the lack of crowd noise (or even negative heat in this case), or was the match a bad one because they worked like they were in the ECW Arena or Korakuen Hall and didn't do anything to try to get back the attention of the audience and draw them into the match? Because really, in a void, it seems like an excellent match. But in front of that audience, it was a disaster that look much worse than it is. Of course said crowd wasn't a wrestling crowd to begin with, so maybe they said "the hell with it", and seeing how the crowd treated Harlem Heat later, I can't blame anyone for not trying to work for that crowd in particular. But still, I can't decide if that match was very good or if the workers just did a bad job because they weren't willing or able to do anything to grab their audience. It's puzzling to me.

[Ditch]

I spoke with someone who was front row, and said the crowd just wanted Benoit to win already. But I don't buy it, that was a crappy crowd even if the match is a slightly overrated technical exhibition.

[Jingus]

That reminds me, what's creepier: people who fetishize women wrestling or the people who relentlessly bash it to the point you wonder if they have some IRL issues with women?

For me, the bashers are creepier. I mean, I certainly have no problem hating on some Michelle McCool vs Maria crap because neither one of them could wrestle their way out of a paper bag. But those guys who just flat-out hate all women's wrestling because it's women wrestling always left me perplexed. At least I can understand where the fetish types are coming from: it's cute chicks engaging in an activity that this particular viewer already loves. Women from Danica Patrick to Morgan Webb have built entire careers off that sort of thing, so it's hardly exclusive to wrestling. But I cannot comprehend the sort of misogynistic mindset that some people have when they just flat-out dismiss ALL female grappling as crap because they don't have penises.

 

Now I have no problem because I watch wrestling promotions that focus on wrestling.

And which commonly available television channels are those promotions on? Most wrestling fans don't want to go out of their way to track down superior product, they just want to see something come on TV. For anyone who just has a standard basic cable package, it's WWE and TNA and nothing else.

 

Though I'm still amused by people who were just stunned by how good Trish became, as though no woman on the planet had managed to reach that level before.

Yeah, but had any absolutely untrained fitness model who looked like that ever come into the business and managed to improve into a seriously good wrestler? Yeah, Hokuto/Kandori smokes anything Trish ever did, but I can't think of any other Barbie-looking blondes who reached the level that Trish did, especially since she started out with zero ring experience as just a piece of eye candy.

 

 

EDIT: the new WON recap a couple folders down gave me a new idea.

 

Myth: Gordon Solie was the best old-school commentator from Back In The Day and was universally respected by his peers as the Dean of Wrestling. (For those with experience, don't just say "Lance Russell was better", expound a bit.)

[kjh]

Regarding Benoit vs. Malenko, I'd blame the booker for booking them to go 28 minutes in front of a crowd they knew would probably crap on such a match.

[Ditch]

And which commonly available television channels are those promotions on? Most wrestling fans don't want to go out of their way to track down superior product, they just want to see something come on TV. For anyone who just has a standard basic cable package, it's WWE and TNA and nothing else.

The point is that someone who's SO vexed and SO badly wants something better is better off putting in the time to look for said better thing. Someone with time to write anti-diva screeds on the internet, doubly so. Though I suppose people who just have a problem with females should be investing that time on a PHD's couch rather than watching joshi.

[Bix]

Though I'm still amused by people who were just stunned by how good Trish became, as though no woman on the planet had managed to reach that level before.

Yeah, but had any absolutely untrained fitness model who looked like that ever come into the business and managed to improve into a seriously good wrestler? Yeah, Hokuto/Kandori smokes anything Trish ever did, but I can't think of any other Barbie-looking blondes who reached the level that Trish did, especially since she started out with zero ring experience as just a piece of eye candy.

Hadn't she already been training for awhile at Sully's Gym before she came to WWE?

[khawk20]

Per the request of JDW: "The Majority of Wrestling Marks thought Wrestling Was Real back in the Good Old Days."

Actually the easiest was to prove that this was a myth, IMO, is the inclusion of midget matches on any pro wrestling card pre-1984. I mean, comedy matches booked for laughs being put on just before the SUPER SERIOUS main event or just after the SUPER SERIOUS main event, with most of the same or similar moves/throws/flips/chops had to have even the most ardent believer questioning how "real" it all was.

[S.L.L.]

That reminds me, what's creepier: people who fetishize women wrestling or the people who relentlessly bash it to the point you wonder if they have some IRL issues with women?

I would like to split the difference and say "people who fetishize women wrestling with the exception of the WWE Divas, whom they relentlessly bash to the point you wonder if they have some IRL issues with women". AirRaidCrush immediately comes to mind.

[Jingus]

Actually the easiest was to prove that this was a myth, IMO, is the inclusion of midget matches on any pro wrestling card pre-1984. I mean, comedy matches booked for laughs being put on just before the SUPER SERIOUS main event or just after the SUPER SERIOUS main event, with most of the same or similar moves/throws/flips/chops had to have even the most ardent believer questioning how "real" it all was.

IIRC, when Thesz was world champ, one of his prerequisites for bookings was that he wouldn't work on any show with midgets or women wrestling, essentially for that reason.

[Death From Above]

For me, the bashers are creepier. I mean, I certainly have no problem hating on some Michelle McCool vs Maria crap because neither one of them could wrestle their way out of a paper bag. But those guys who just flat-out hate all women's wrestling because it's women wrestling always left me perplexed. At least I can understand where the fetish types are coming from: it's cute chicks engaging in an activity that this particular viewer already loves. Women from Danica Patrick to Morgan Webb have built entire careers off that sort of thing, so it's hardly exclusive to wrestling. But I cannot comprehend the sort of misogynistic mindset that some people have when they just flat-out dismiss ALL female grappling as crap because they don't have penises.

I would never go as far as to call myelf a "women's wrestling fetishist" though I've got a handful of AJW and GAEA events around somewhere. And really even bringing up almost anything the WWE has ever promoted in a discussion of quality women's wrestling is fairly ridiculous from what I've seen. So I guess I fall more into the category of a "happy women's wrestling snob" than a "fetishist".

 

But I'll put forward the belief that if admitting to being attracted to Manami Toyota (I guess I just dated myself with that) or Ayako Hamada cracks the top 5 kinky things you can say about yourself, you're really not nearly kinked up enough to be involved in a discussion about dirt in pro wrestling. And there really is a group out there that can't wrap their head around the concept of being attracted to a woman while being able to respect her as a worker. As if putting the two together is some act of miraculous work.

 

Granted that hardly reaches to the level of "women's wrestling fetishist" in the sene that bashers use the term, but the existance of them in general is really overblown by the second group (the haters) and can't possibly involve more than a few dozen people across a few dozen wrestling message boards. The haters and those small handfull of genuine fetishists are probably just about equal on a weird scale for me. But I don't really find either shocking in either direction on an overall scale of "weird shit people sexually fetishize" or "shit other people want to claim is the weirdest creepiest shit ever for whatever reason". I find both pretty mild examples in each direction.

 

Obviously this isn't wrestling exclusive. There's millions of men walking around in our society who can handle a woman being attractive, or smart/successful/skilled/whatever. But not both at once. I'm sure there's mountains of psycho-analysis to run through there but I'm not the one to do it. Hell, there are plenty of women who can't handle seeing another woman be both at once.

[tomk]

Actually the easiest was to prove that this was a myth, IMO, is the inclusion of midget matches on any pro wrestling card pre-1984. I mean, comedy matches booked for laughs being put on just before the SUPER SERIOUS main event or just after the SUPER SERIOUS main event, with most of the same or similar moves/throws/flips/chops had to have even the most ardent believer questioning how "real" it all was.

IIRC, when Thesz was world champ, one of his prerequisites for bookings was that he wouldn't work on any show with midgets or women wrestling, essentially for that reason.

 

I'm pretty sure that this was a line that Thesz used to publicly maintain his gimmick, and had nothing to do with reality. I know I have Thesz doing commentary for a midcard U.S, womens match, and I'm pretty sure people have put up results from cards with Thesz in main and midgets and women on the undercard.

 

If you paid him enough he would have tagged with a woman a midget and an exotico.

[Jingus]

Huh. Weird. Cuz I'm pretty sure he mentioned it in Hooker, a book in which he freely admits that the entire wrestling industry over the whole 20th century was a work. Odd that he'd try to keep kayfabe on that one particular point, doesn't seem like it would be that important.

[khawk20]

Huh. Weird. Cuz I'm pretty sure he mentioned it in Hooker, a book in which he freely admits that the entire wrestling industry over the whole 20th century was a work. Odd that he'd try to keep kayfabe on that one particular point, doesn't seem like it would be that important.

Maybe it was something he did ask for, but if the promoter couldn't accomodate the request, Lou probably wrestled some anyways. Money to be made and whatnot...

[Cox]

Huh. Weird. Cuz I'm pretty sure he mentioned it in Hooker, a book in which he freely admits that the entire wrestling industry over the whole 20th century was a work. Odd that he'd try to keep kayfabe on that one particular point, doesn't seem like it would be that important.

How many times have you seen guys like Hulk Hogan or Vince McMahon admit that wrestling is a work or whatever, before lying their ass off about a bunch of other stuff in interviews? Just because they're being honest about one thing doesn't mean they're being honest about another; on the contrary, appearing to be honest about one thing can often help you spew whatever bullshit you want because you were "honest" about something everybody knew anyway. In this case, Lou is probably trying to frame himself as being a serious athlete and above all the nonsense around wrestling, since that is what your average Thesz fan would want to hear, when he's really as much a take-the-money carny as anybody else.