The Flair Formula

[kjh]

I don't think it's just a matter of overexposure, to some extent it's a matter of taste too. Some people may just like other formulas or styles of wrestling better than Flair's.

[jdw]

Over exposure is part of it.

 

But if the Beatles kept doing Pepper Era stuff (PL/SF Single + Pepper + MMT EP + AYNIL Single + HG Single) through 1968 and 1969, it would have eventually gotten boring as all shit. Much of Magical Mystery Tour is really mediocre when compared to Penny Lane/Strawberry Fields and Pepper. The high points aren't as high, and the low points are lower. Hello Goodbye is a decent "pop single", but it's not as good as All You Need Is Love, and obviously not as good as PL/SF.

 

Within a year of starting the Pepper Era (sessions started with SF) and largely finishing it (HG Single and MMT EP), they were decling and producing a high level of boring stuff.

 

That's not to say that if they went in that direction for another year that 100% of the stuff would have been boring. One could argue that their first short session of 1968 had a Pepper element still in it with Across The Universe (if you've ever heard the Hums Wild mix of it that was shelved) and Hey Bulldog (kind of an extension of Good Morning and others musically). Inner Light was the end of George's Indian stretch, which was a theme of his from Revolver through Pepper. But Paul was heading in another direction, and John was never happy with Across The Universe (I tend to think he was too stoned out of his mind to grasp that the song was fine and should have been releases as the B-Side of Lady Madonna).

 

But...

 

Hey Jude, Revelution, the best stuff off the White Album (which admittedly had a load of shit on its four sides), the best stuff out of the mess of the Get Back sessions (and the best stuff was actually very good), and the best stuff out of Abbey Road... almost all of the best stuff from those three sessions had move well past Pepper.

 

That's Ric Flair:

 

Sargent Peppers

 

It's not that Ric couldn't move past it. The shit worked. Worked really great.

 

But he played the same album from 20 years.

 

Before one say that the Jake match is different... fine - it's the Within You Without You of Ric's Pepper. Or maybe it's I Am The Walrus.

 

Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields are one of the great singles of all-time. But there are stretches where I really don't want to listen to them. Instead I'm in the kick where I'm enjoying Beatlemania Era stuff, and the Hard Days Night album is in my CD player.

 

Every wrestler had their Pepper. Many of them can't get beyond it. They have a general form that works for them. They might have a few changes to it if they're working heel or face, or one type of feud or another. But it all fits into being a different track on their own personal Pepper. And it can get pretty boring.

 

I think perhaps one of the reasons people offer up Jumbo is that when you think about him, he's got a few different albums. Young Jumbo is Beatle Mania. He matures a little beyond the spunky kid into being a champion in his own right, and a challenger to World Champions who really doesn't job much to them (only one to Race and only one to Flair which covers 1977-85... a Lot of Years). Maybe that's his Revolver or Rubber Soul era. Hard to tell if there's a Pepper for him where he gets experimental. Perhaps the second half of the feud with Choshu (where Jumbo heels) and the feud with Tenryu is his White Album / Hey Jude+Revolution era where you see an even more mature performer. His feud with Misawa & Co is the tail end, but it's his collection of the best of the Get Back Sessions and Abbey Road sessions. There's a lot similar to the prior phase, but things are being nailed better as he completely comfortable in the directions he's gone.

 

With Flair... you don't see that.

 

With Hogan, you do see probably three albums: young heel, Hulkamania, older heel. Hollywood Hogan really is a different beast from the earlier ones... more so than 80s Face Flair vs Heel Flair which feel like different "tracks" rather than entirely different phases of a career.

 

It's not a knock at Flair that he pretty much reached his Pepper early can kept recording it for the next 20+ years. Lots of wrestlers do. But it also can get them along to boring faster. There are times when you just need to wander away from it for quite some time for it to become "fresh" again.

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

Having a formula isn't something that's unique to wrestling.

 

There's been plenty of film directors who've made the same film over and over again; musicians who've made the same album; actors who've given the same performance; and writers who've told the same story. It's not necessarily a bad thing. If you produce consistently great work, the critics tend to call it an oeuvre and get excited when they find a body of work that has strong, centralised themes running through it. Some artists are more experimental, but I don't think there's many people who enjoy every phase of Miles Davis' career, for example, and sometimes being eclectic just means you're a jack of all trades and a master of none, like the American film director Howard Hawks.

 

In the case of Ric Flair, I think there's been a tendency among hardcore wrestling fans to seek out new things in recent years. The wrestlers who I've really explored in recent years have been Satanico, Fujiwara, Jim Breaks and a host of other old-school luchadores. For others it might be Memphis, Mid-South, Backlund, 80s WWF, whatever. There's been an inclination towards the "new", even if the new wrestling is in fact extremely old.

 

What makes it exciting is that there hasn't been a lot written about that stuff. When I discover a new Satanico match or a new Jim Breaks match, it really is a discovery. Someone else may have unearthed the match, but few people will have written about it. It's not like when we were getting into All Japan and we had John's list as a sort of Bible to go by. And I guess in every hobby, people are always looking for new things to appreciate. I know I'm at the stage where I would rather watch a Hiroshi Shimizu or Heinosuke Gosho film than Ozu or Mizoguchi.

 

So, in many ways, Ric Flair is "old hat." Everything that can be possibly written or said about Ric Flair has already been done, even if Loss and John's posts were excellent.

 

Personally, I still enjoy a bit of Ric Flair every now and again, but the big thing for me is whether I find it cool. Up until a certain point, he is. I used to think '89-90 was the cut-off point, but going back and watching that stuff his face stuff in '89 kinda grates on my nerves and his heel turn is more or less the killer, aside from the stuff against Luger, which I enjoyed. The Memphis stuff with Lawler, on the other hand, was a blast. But the older he got, the less cool it became. Kinda like the type I went to see James Brown a few years before he died, compared to 1968 footage on youtube. (And I always thought the James Brown/Ric Flair comparison was a good one, aside from the soul/r&b transition into funk.)

 

Most people's work declines with age, but the question for me is whether Flair could've had a different kind of phase or was he forever typecast as the Nature Boy? It's easy to say that Hogan had a different phase as a heel, because he was a babyface for so long. It's the same with Jumbo. His position slowly changed over the years and he moved with the times as his opponents got hot. But Flair flip-flopped so many times between heel and face and had commentators like JR say the same shit everytime, that I can't imagine a different sort of Nature Boy. A lot of heels in Flair's era were perfect gentlemen when they were faces and maniacs where they were heels, but Flair was always kinda Flair, whether you loved him for it or hated him for it.

 

So, I'd argue that he typecast himself and eventually it became a kind of parody.

 

As for the over-exposure issue, there may be some truth to it, but at the end of the day it depends how much you like a worker. People have set ideas about Flair like they do about many other workers. Let's take Toyota for example. There's a lot of set ideas about her that will never budge. A big Toyota fan could watch hundreds of her matches and probably find differences in her work, subtle or otherwise, but a person with set ideas about her is not going to watch hundreds of her matches.

 

The thing about Flair's work is that it's never gonna change, because it was recorded a long time ago, so I dunno if there are any new ways of looking at Flair. You either think it's good or you don't. Even if you find different kinds of Ric Flair matches, how many are there? A dozen? More? Less? I'm sure that's enough to change the overall impression of Flair as a worker. It's like the different Bret Hart matches that are remarkably similar to other Bret Hart matches. It's not like you're gonna find a Flair match where he does quasi-shoot style matwork.

 

But I agree that it's definitely less mysterious than old-school lucha or any other style that didn't have a lot taped. Perhaps the test will be whether John burns out on Backlund.

[Loss]

I don't think it's just a matter of overexposure, to some extent it's a matter of taste too. Some people may just like other formulas or styles of wrestling better than Flair's.

And this is certainly their right.

 

I have no issue with jdw criticizing Flair. He's someone who I know has seen enough Flair (probably more than enough Flair) to form a valid opinion. I will even say in his defense that because some people are so over the top in their praise for Flair, which even I as a huge Flair fan think goes too far at times, the fact that he views Flair reasonably sometimes gets misinterpreted as Flair bashing. I've seen John engage in his share of Flair bashing, just as I have engaged in my share, but I've also seen him praise matches like Flair/Luger at Wrestle War '90, Flair/Race from All Japan, Flair/Steamboat from Clash VI, and Flair/Garvin from TBS.

 

I really should have prefaced my previous post by saying that there is a type of Flair fan that's just unwilling to look at his stuff overall to see how it holds up. He becomes the greatest ever because he's been ordained, and it's been said for so long that people just roll it out without thinking about it. What's sad about that is that I think those types of people do more to turn people off of Flair than they do to get people hyped up to see his matches.

 

I said it before, and I will say it again because I can't stress it enough -- I am so sick of people talking about the same handful of matches when talking about Flair. The Steamboat matches are great, but I don't even think he was Flair's best opponent. Flair/Windham, Flair/Morton, Flair/Garvin, Flair/Kerry, even Flair/Luger ... I find all of those matches much easier to watch.

 

I think if someone wants to see what the fuss over Ric Flair is about and pops in Wrestle War '89, they're really not going to get it. A Flair match with no cheating, very little trash talking, and a clean win? Same for Clash VI. Pretty great match, but the Steamboat matches are a bit ... stoic. Is that the right word? This is a byproduct of the crappy online culture built around people only seeking out the most highly recommended stuff, maybe not realizing that it's hard to appreciate a ****1/2 match if you don't know what a ***1/2 match looked like by the standards of the time.

 

My counterpoint to Flair criticism has never been that the criticisms aren't really valid, as much as they have been that the criticisms ultimately seem almost meaningless. How would working the leg more than he does to set up the figure four or adding a DDT or cross armbreaker to his offense have made a difference? I'm asking that question not as a dismissal of it, but because I really don't know.

 

Watching the Flair shoot done by Highspots was eye-opening. I said this to Bix on AIM after I finished it -- the guy is pretty dense. He had his persona, and was concerned with living it in and out of the ring, which is honestly what made him a superstar far more than his wrestling ability. He had his sequences down -- I believe "I had my match down" is a direct quote if I'm not mistaken -- and they worked, so he saw no reason to change them. He also said multiple times in the shoot that he did things all the time that didn't make sense, but they got a great reaction, so he didn't care.

 

If someone likes Jumbo Tsuruta, or El Hijo del Santo, or the AJ 4, or Liger, or Eddy Guerrero, or someone like that better, I can't fault them. All great wrestlers, all who have things they do much better than Flair.

 

If anything, I think the biggest reason I rank Flair just above them is because he had some great matches with some really green steroid freaks on a regular basis, and while I'm sure there are isolated cases of that for others, who else did it so regularly?

[tomk]

I'm a Ramones fan.

[Ditch]

the crappy online culture built around people only seeking out the most highly recommended stuff, maybe not realizing that it's hard to appreciate a ****1/2 match if you don't know what a ***1/2 match looked like by the standards of the time.

I've run into this so often when I try to get ROH fans who are open to puro to actually watch puro. When I was a novice I'd watch just the big matches with no context and often totally fail to appreciate them as a result. But for fans who are used to tons o' highspots a lead-in match from Japan doesn't cut it. They just want to see the ***** match so they have more time to watch Impact. Someone PLEASE explain that one to me...

 

At the same time there's just so much pro wrestling out there that you'll be told is good and worth watching. It can be hard to invest the time needed to get a deep understanding of any one era/area/style, especially if you're also trying to keep up with today's stuff. I've put in a ton of time over most of the decade in doing just this and I still don't have time to watch the DVDVR '80s sets; I can't imagine how much more overwhelming it must be for someone who's a newcomer today. So there's a certain amount of necessity in only watching the best of the best.

 

If anything, I think the biggest reason I rank Flair just above them is because he had some great matches with some really green steroid freaks on a regular basis, and while I'm sure there are isolated cases of that for others, who else did it so regularly?

Ah, but who else was really in that position? Touring champs before Flair weren't dealing with quite so many bodybuilders/gasheads. Ditto wrestlers who were primarily in Japan and Mexico; not many get to the top in either place based entirely on look. After that you're pretty much left with US promotions in the last 25 years, and by that point a whole lot of "best wrestler ever" usual suspects are gone.

 

Flair's formula was very effective at getting a three-star match out of 1/2* wrestlers. After a certain number of times that point is proven. But was he able to carry said roid freaks to something good any other way? And how many times did his reliance on the formula hinder his ability to do something good with top-flight talent? I'd say his flaw there is especially evident from his time in Japan. Like JDW, I'm not big on Flair vs Jumbo. The Japanese, wrestling more often in the same place, expected to do something different every time out. I don't know if the problem was more Flair failing to do something different or Jumbo not just going with the formula, but they were "off" most of the time. It's by far the most disappointing series of any big opponent Jumbo faced. Yet Flair got by far the most watchable outing with Waijima I've seen. Which side of the coin matters more?

 

It's a testament to Flair that he can be thought of as one of the best ever despite admittedly having "one match".

[Resident Evil]

I absolutely loved Jumbo vs Flair. Some of my favourite matches for either guy.

[S.L.L.]

I usually find Ric Flair matches that people pimp as "not being Flair type matches" as being in the end Flair Matches. Things like Flair-Martel or Flair-Taylor.

Wait, people said this?

 

I did not hate the Flair/Taylor matches nearly as much as my Segunda Caida compatriots, but those are some of the Flairiest Flair matches I have ever seen.

[Ditch]

I absolutely loved Jumbo vs Flair. Some of my favourite matches for either guy.

Some were good. Lots were well below either of their average, especially after the June '83 broadway.

[Resident Evil]

I absolutely loved Jumbo vs Flair. Some of my favourite matches for either guy.

Some were good. Lots were well below either of their average, especially after the June '83 broadway.

 

From your perspective. For me, they are all time classics. I would say one of their matches is top 5 personal best for both of them. That being said, I know what I like in my wrestling is vastly different from what you like.

[Ditch]

I'm genuinely curious because I've only really seen praise for their '81, '82 and 6/83 matches. I *love* the broadway, but there's like five or more after that and none of them seemed especially good.

[Death From Above]

Flair/Garvin

I'm always baffled by the absolute lack of love for Starrcade '87. It often gets brough up in weakest Starrcade discussions.

 

Even if you take it as a one match show (which it wasn't in my opinion), Flair/Garvin alone makes it worth watching more than some of the others.

 

The Steamboat matches are great, but I don't even think he was Flair's best opponent.

I dunno, I'd have a hard time naming a Flair match I like more than his match with Steamboat from the Meadowlands in '84 that got around on Tabe's Flair/Steamboat comp. One of my favourite matches of the '80's.

[S.L.L.]

Hey, Loss, as long as you've brought it up...who do you think Flair's best opponent was? I mean, I'm still inclined to say Steamboat, but he's wrestled so many people over so long a period of time, you probably could make a convincing argument for someone else.

[Loss]

Ricky Morton.

 

I will elaborate more later.

[anarchistxx]

Is the Flair/Jumbo broadway available in good quality? I'm assuming it's on one of the AJPW Classics discs, but I've never actually seen it. Sounds like something that could pique my interest again.

[Loss]

It's on the newest PWO DVD Club disc, available now! PM Goodhelmet for details.

 

It only became available in entirety recently. Before that, there was an edited version (40 of 60 minutes) which aired on TV, but never in full. It never aired on Classics, so anyone who had it had it from the original airing on TV where it was clipped.

 

G+ recently aired the match in full.

 

I can't wait to see the whole thing. Edited, it was a fantastic match, definitely the best Flair/Jumbo there is.

[Ditch]

I'm hosting it if all you need is a web video.

 

When it was put up at PWTorrents last year I was floored. That it only just aired in full/good quality explains a lot about why it isn't more pimped. I'd peg it as the best All Japan match between '78 and '87.

[Dylan Waco]

How many holy grails are left?

[Jkeats]

I'm hosting it if all you need is a web video.

 

When it was put up at PWTorrents last year I was floored. That it only just aired in full/good quality explains a lot about why it isn't more pimped. I'd peg it as the best All Japan match between '78 and '87.

Yeah I got it off PWTorrents as well. If I'm not mistaken it was in the PWT 100 countdown for 1983 and was put up there with very little fanfare. I have yet to watch it since downloading it but with all the hype for it, I think I may watch it tonight!

[khawk20]

How many holy grails are left?

One that I came across recently is a LONG Bockwinkel-Tsuruta match from Hawaii in the late 70's. It's online...I'll find the link to it and edit it in or post it in another forum.

 

**EDIT** link is in the Multi-media forum now...

 

I asked Dan Ginnetty about it as it's an episode of Japan TV and it's the one he DOESN'T have, and he has no idea who the sourceis or where it came from.

 

Tracking that one down in a nice dvd version is "grail-ish" to me, anyway. Those are the real Grails that are left...the matches that just appear that you had no idea existed. This is one of them. A batch of AWA TV from january-April 1980 appeared a few months back on youtube...guy that posted it actually taped it back in 1980. Great stuff..another Grail for me as TV from that era in the AWA is spotty and the VQ isn't great for the most part. I am sure there are more that will reveal themselves as the years go on.

 

****

 

...and, since this is a Flair thread and I'm steering it off-topic, some Flair Grails that might still see the light of day would include Flair vs. Pillman from Twin Wars 90, an AWA show in St. Paul that Verne got Flair in for at the very end of the AWA's existence. Verne had to give Crockett the Destruction Crew to work a program against the Steiners to make it happen (they were "Minnesota Wrecking Crew II under masks). Verne might have taped it.

 

There is apparently a very early Ric Flair vs. Greg Gagne film shot by Jim Melby out there as well. The source I know claimed to have had it stored away at his parent's house, and since he is a US Soldier I have lost touch with him (got shipped to Iraq). I know how this story sounds, but this is the same guy that claimed he had a Melby film of Greg Gagne vs. Jim Brunzell (George Schire swore up and down that the match never ever happened, lol) and he did get me a copy of that, so there is some history there that would support his claim.

[jdw]

I'm hosting it if all you need is a web video.

 

When it was put up at PWTorrents last year I was floored. That it only just aired in full/good quality explains a lot about why it isn't more pimped. I'd peg it as the best All Japan match between '78 and '87.

Oh lord... don't set expectations that high.

 

 

How many holy grails are left?

I think some clips of one of these are out, but don't know if the entire series is:

 

09/04/76 Bruno vs Brody (MSG)

10/04/76 Bruno vs Brody (MSG)

 

Same with this series:

 

04/26/76 Bruno vs Hansen (MSG)

06/25/76 Bruno vs Hansen (Shea)

08/07/76 Bruno vs Hansen (MSG Cage)

 

Just to be able to see the entire series and how they built through it.

 

Same with this series some of it and the Phily version of the feud are out there:

 

01/17/77 Bruno vs Patera (MSG)

02/07/77 Bruno vs Patera (MSG Texas Death Match)

03/07/77 Bruno vs Patera (MSG)

08/29/77 Bruno vs Patera (MSG Texas Death Match #2)

 

It's an interesting series as they don't blow it off in Bruno's favor, instead saving the blow off to support a Graham card later in the year. It would be interesting to see Patera range in this period, and if they varied the match as their built the series. A chunk of it's available, but listing the "series" as a holy grail.

 

Various Backlund:

 

05/22/78 Backlund vs Patera (MSG 21:00)

 

Early Backlund-Patera to comp with their great work in 1980.

 

10/14/78 Backlund vs Rivera (Philly 16:36)

 

I toss this out because the Inoki-Rivera from this mid-70s show Rivera doing some really nice matwork before Inoki takes it home rather abruptly. It's one of those matches where you would really have liked to get at least 5-7 more minutes. And the thought crosses the mind in it that Rivera working that way against Backlund would be really interesting. This is 7 or so minute longer match that Inoki vs Rivera.

 

11/18/78 Backlund vs Blackwell (Philly 14:45)

 

That one might be out there. Would be really interesting.

 

02/17/79 Backlund vs Koloff (Philly Cage)

 

Just to comp with Bruno-Ivan in the cage, and Backlund-Pat.

 

05/01/81 Backlund vs Inoki (Mexico City 18:05, 5:17, 8:01)

 

The card also has a Canek vs Fujinami (9:07, 6:02, 6:05) which would also be interesting. Dan didn't find it when compiling his epic list of New Japan TV shows, but I also don't think he found Inoki-Bob from Miami in the list of shows. We thought the Miami match must have been an unlisted Special, so perhaps this one was as well.

 

It was very common for New Japan to tape while on tour, especially in Mexico City. Have to think this was.

 

08/23/81 Backlund vs Muraco (MSG 60:00)

 

The Philly draw exists, but this is the one to see.

 

08/02/82 Backlund vs Orton (MSG 23:38)

 

This is after their Philly matches (05/22/82 & 06/26/82) and a good 7+ minutes longer. It and the 08/30/82 match vs Rose are between the long series with Snuka and Superstar that dominate MSG from April to December 1982. The Rose match is exceptional. The Philly matches with Orton are "good" and has some really nice spots, but the first one lacks a good controlling section out of Orton. Given the space to fill in MSG, there's a chance that they bring more working of holds in addition to the nice spots of the Philly match.

 

------------------------

 

All Japan... there are tons:

 

11/27/75 Baba & Jumbo vs Murdoch & Rhodes (NWA Int'l 13:27, 8:00, 4:50)

 

In the middle of the singles league there's this. Look that time to fill - 25+ minutes. How can that not be a dream match. In Sapporo and the first NWA In't Tag Title defense since June, so there's a decent chance it was taped.

 

 

03/08/76 Baba vs Wahoo (PWF 11:18, 3:05, 1:44)

10/03/77 Jumbo vs Wahoo (UN 17:49, 8:10, 1:14)

 

The later is the bigger holy grail. The Baba & Jumbo vs Bobo & Wahoo from the series had Jumbo and Wahoo working some nice stuff together with Wahoo in the heel role. The 10/03/77 match might be the best opportunity to cage the depth of Wahoo's skills in the 70s given the lenth and obviously the opponent.

 

10/21/77 Baba & Jumbo vs Bobo & Patera (Int'l Tag 10:33, 4:38, 5:15)

10/24/77 Baba vs Patera (PWF 10:29, 5:31, 5:50)

 

Some long matches to judge Patera in against Jumbo and Baba, and also comp him with how Wahoo worked against them.

 

These two may not be available as Baba was in a big feud with Oki that may have gotten the TV time.

 

01/28/74 Jack Brisco vs The Destroyer (NWA 10:29, 7:32, 9:26)

03/12/75 Jack Brisco vs The Destroyer (NWA 10:08, 3:40, 7:53)

 

The first one was in Nagoya in the big building, so there's a veery small, outside chance that it was taped. I'd vastly rather have the Brisco-Destroyer than the Brisco-Funk draw from the next night. The second one is unlikely.

 

There are quite a few more Baba vs Brisco and Jumbo vs Brisco matches out there. Given the quality of their matches that are available, they'd all be fun to see.

 

07/26/78 Baba & Jumbo vs Terry & Slater (NWA Int'l 16:16, 5:20, 6:55)

 

Don't think that's available yet.

 

 

10/22/79 Jumbo vs Blackwell (UN 15:28, 2:30)

 

That could be fun.

 

Did Dan ever get the Jumbo-Murdoch title turn around? I'm trying to remember. Those two have long been Grails.

 

There are tons of Carnival matches that would be intersting to see. It would nice if all of the Carny television would come out similar to how the end of 1975 league came out in mass quantities. Seems like an obvious thing to attack.

 

There are more, but those are ones that I've eyeballed for years.

 

-------------------------------------

 

JWA of course has tons, but some key ones:

 

02/28/66 Baba vs Thesz (Int'l 21:13, 2:45, 0:51)

 

Rather famous match. Lou had just dropped the NWA Title. Essentially Baba's first defense after settling the Int'l Title with the Bruiser at the end of 1965 to succeed Rikidozan. Lou is brought in to help seal the deal for Baba as the heir. Pictures of the backdrop in the match appear in a lot history mags.

 

08/09/68 Baba & Inoki vs Bruno & Stevens (Int'l 14:52, 4:37)

 

Two days after the baseball stadium match between Baba and Bruno. Interesting rare chance to see Stevens in with Baba & Inoki.

 

01/03/69 Baba & Inoki vs Snyder & Hodge (Int'l 15:46, 17:53, tl)

01/08/69 Baba & Inoki vs Snyder & Hodge (Int'l 18:08, 4:34, 3:45)

01/11/69 Baba vs Snyder (Int'l 16:31, 3:27, 3:27)

02/04/69 Baba & Inoki vs Snyder & Hodge (Int'l 23:59, 1:03, 2:59)

02/11/69 Baba & Inoki vs Snyder & Hodge (Int'l 21:32, 3:25, 3:42)

 

Probably the best chance to see how good Snyder and Hodge were. The 01/08/69 and 02/04/69 matches are title changes. The 01/03/69 matches was the year opener in Tokyo, going the time limit to set up the entire series. I'd have to dig up the results for 1969, but Inoki also had a singles match against Hodge and it may have been on 01/11/69 in Osaka.

 

I'd love to see the draw and at least one of the tag title changes to comp with how they got their spots down as the rivalry continued. That sad thing about the title changes is that the 2nd and 3rd falls were short. So the first title change might be more interesting than the natives winning the belts back.

 

 

07/03/69 Baba vs Blassie (Int'l 21:17)

 

Zero doubt this would have aired. Blassie was past his prime at this point, but I don't think quite as washed as he would be by the early 70s.

 

11/28/69 Baba & Inoki vs Dory & Hodge (Int'l 27:12, 11:15, tl)

 

In old Sumo Hall... of course it was taped leading into the World Title matches the following week.

 

12/03/69 Baba vs Funk (NWA 21:07, 3:47, tl)

 

Tokyo Metropolitan Gym the day after Inoki vs Funk draw. Clearly taped. A huge comp for Inoki-Funk.

 

The Andersons toured Japan in the first series of 1970. It would be interesting to see one of their TV matches against the natives. They have a 01/11/70 All Asian Tag challenge of Inoki & Yoshimura. That might not have aired.

 

07/30/70 Baba vs Dory (NWA 17:20, 28:20, 6:55)

 

Another world title match between the two. Osaka... likely taped as well.

 

08/04/70 Baba & Inoki vs Dory & Terry (Int'l 26:17, 5:45)

 

First title match between the teams. Would be a lot of fun.

 

11/29/70 Yoshimura & Inoki vs Valentine & Race (All Asian)

12/01/70 Baba & Inoki vs Kiniski & Valentine (Int'l 27:50, 8:55, 9:20)

12/02/70 Yoshimura & Inoki vs Valentine & Race (All Asian)

12/09/70 Yoshimura & Inoki vs Kiniski & Race (All Asian)

 

The first three were in Sapporo, Tokyo Gym and Osaka. A good chance that some of that was taped. The Int'l Tag Title match is the big one, a chance to see Valentine in a really long match. Would love to get one of the other Race matches, preferably one of the two with Valentine to get another chance to see Valentine.

 

02/20/71 Yoshimura & Inoki vs Mascaras & Doug Gilbert (All Asian)

03/02/71 Baba & Inoki vs Mascaras & Arion (Int'l 16:25, 5:49, 3:25)

 

I think this is Mil's first tour of Japan. Osaka Furitsu Gym and old Sumo Hall... they both should have been tapped. Would be super interesting to see early Mil in Japan, and comp his work with Inoki here with his later work with Jumbo.

 

06/29/71 Baba vs Koloff (Int'l 14:36, 1:08, 3:54)

 

A few months after Ivan beat Bruno and drops to Pedro... JWA decides to bring him over to job to Baba. Would be interesting more than a grail.

 

John

[Ditch]

Who owns the JWA footage? NTV? If they do I wonder why they've released so little of it.

Oh lord... don't set expectations that high.

Keep in mind that I don't rate any of the Choshu matches much higher than "really fun". Lots of weak years for top-notch bouts in that period, especially compared to 76/77 on one end and 88/89 on the other.

[jdw]

I like the early 1986 tags a great deal.

 

But there are great matches in that the 1978-88 period, such as Funks vs Baba & Jumbo to close the 1978 Tag League, or Jumbo vs Kerry. So you're setting the bar high.

 

John

[jdw]

BTW - is the full version on The Biz? Or do you have the old 40 minute version?

 

John

[JHawk]

Most of the WWF stuff in jdw's long post is in WWE's video library and every once in a while they dig out something that never aired, so you might see that yet. WWE.com Legacy actually put the full Backlund-Race unification match up last month, and since it didn't even make the History of the WWE Championship DVD I never thought we'd even see a poor quality version of it surface.