Who Is Better?

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't know if this is a fair comparison because of the huge disparity in available footage. It's much easier to poke holes in Eddy's work because there's so much of him on tape. Dandy's career isn't nearly as well documented. That aside, I'll go with Eddy due to his ability to get over in a wider variety of environments incorporating a wider variety of styles.

I want to come back to this as I was dealing with a sick child yesterday.

 

There is enough footage available to poke holes in Dandy's career, it's just that most people haven't seen it. Dandy is a new discovery for a lot of people and right now they're only watching his best stuff. With time people may develop a more balanced view of Dandy, though it's unlikely that they're going to watch a bunch of non-pimped lucha TV.

 

Eddy has always been overrated largely because he was a favourite of so many during the Monday Night Wars era and his athletic prime coincided with the arrival of the internet. Then, after he finally adapted to the WWE style, he had that final run of his that was the icing on the cake. I like Eddy and I'm more than willing to be critical of Dandy, but Dandy's '89-90 peak ('91 really, but he was being de-emphasised that year) is a better run than Eddy had in his entire career and his post-peak years where he gained weight throughout the 90s had a far greater output than Eddy's New Japan and WCW years. Even on the indy scene from '01-04, Dandy was pretty much on the same level as Eddy.

 

If Dandy had been in '89 shape and they'd pushed him to the cruiserweight title in WCW, instead of heavier and less athletic, it wouldn't make much difference to the comparison. I don't think Eddy winning the Best of the Super Juniors meant much, either. All it really amounted to was a title shot against Sasuke.

 

I actually think it's Dandy's early work that's overrated. He was not a great worker prior to '88.

[Sidebottom]

[Matt D]

I don't know if this is a fair comparison because of the huge disparity in available footage. It's much easier to poke holes in Eddy's work because there's so much of him on tape. Dandy's career isn't nearly as well documented. That aside, I'll go with Eddy due to his ability to get over in a wider variety of environments incorporating a wider variety of styles.

I want to come back to this as I was dealing with a sick child yesterday.

 

There is enough footage available to poke holes in Dandy's career, it's just that most people haven't seen it. Dandy is a new discovery for a lot of people and right now they're only watching his best stuff. With time people may develop a more balanced view of Dandy, though it's unlikely that they're going to watch a bunch of non-pimped lucha TV.

 

Eddy has always been overrated largely because he was a favourite of so many during the Monday Night Wars era and his athletic prime coincided with the arrival of the internet. Then, after he finally adapted to the WWE style, he had that final run of his that was the icing on the cake. I like Eddy and I'm more than willing to be critical of Dandy, but Dandy's '89-90 peak ('91 really, but he was being de-emphasised that year) is a better run than Eddy had in his entire career and his post-peak years where he gained weight throughout the 90s had a far greater output than Eddy's New Japan and WCW years. Even on the indy scene from '01-04, Dandy was pretty much on the same level as Eddy.

 

If Dandy had been in '89 shape and they'd pushed him to the cruiserweight title in WCW, instead of heavier and less athletic, it wouldn't make much difference to the comparison. I don't think Eddy winning the Best of the Super Juniors meant much, either. All it really amounted to was a title shot against Sasuke.

 

I actually think it's Dandy's early work that's overrated. He was not a great worker prior to '88.

 

You should point us to some Dandy counterpoint matches.

[goodhelmet]

Yeah, watching the stuff from Dandy prior to 89 for the lucha set, I never felt like Dandy was an inferior worker to anyone who was in the ring. We don't have much but what we do have, He was pretty freaking good.

[ohtani's jacket]

You should point us to some Dandy counterpoint matches.

Which points?

[JerryvonKramer]

Bob Backlund or Owen Hart?

Bob Backlund or Brian Pillman?

Bob Backlund or Steve Austin?

Bob Backlund or Bret Hart?

Bob Backlund or Jumbo Tsurta?

Bob Backlund or Tito Santana?

Bob Backlund or Tully Blanchard?

Bob Backlund or Kurt Angle?

Bob Backlund or Harley Race?

Bob Backlund or Rick Rude?

Bob Backlund or Scott Hall?

Bob Backlund or William Regal?

Bob Backlund or Triple H?

 

Guess I want a sense of where people rank Backlund. Despite seeing lots of very good to great matches from him now, I still don't really like him.

[goodhelmet]

Bob Backlund or Steve Austin

Bob Backlund or Bret Hart

Bob Backlund or Jumbo Tsurta

Bob Backlund or Tully Blanchard

Bob Backlund or Kurt Angle

Bob Backlund or Harley Race

Bob Backlund or Scott Hall

Bob Backlund or William Regal

Bob Backlund or Triple H

 

The others, I am still incomplete on.

[shoe]

Bob > Owen

Bob

 

Bob

Bob >Angle,Harley, Hall

Bob

Bob> Hhh

Bob

Bob > Rude

[shoe]

Parv are you going to share your list buddy?

[Superstar Sleeze]

Bob Backlund or Owen Hart?

Bob Backlund or Brian Pillman?

Bob Backlund or Steve Austin?

Bob Backlund or Bret Hart?

Bob Backlund or Jumbo Tsurta?

Bob Backlund or Tito Santana?

Bob Backlund or Tully Blanchard?

Bob Backlund or Kurt Angle?

Bob Backlund or Harley Race?

Bob Backlund or Rick Rude?

Bob Backlund or Scott Hall?

Bob Backlund or William Regal?

Bob Backlund or Triple H?

 

Jumbo is definitively better than Backlund.

 

Backlund, Austin, Bret are all in the same area. I need to rewatch a ton of Regal and watch more Blanchard.

 

Backlund is better than Owen, Pillman, Tito, Harley, Rude, Hall and HHH.

 

Having just watched Austin/Pillman, I feel like I am overrating Austin and underrating Pillman. Backlund is around #25 for me if I remember correctly from when I threw up my top 50 in response to Dylan and Musgrave's podcast. I have not even seen one of his '82 matches, which are supposed to be amazing.

 

Backlund works so well against a variety of opponents in different type of matches that it is hard to deny his awesomeness. In May of 1980, he wrestled ****+ classics against Hogan, Dusty (NJPW) and Patera all of which are incredibly different. His May of 1980 maybe one of the best months in wrestling history. He is an absolute beast.

[shoe]

Backlund works so well against a variety of opponents in different type of matches that it is hard to deny his awesomeness. In May of 1980, he wrestled ****+ classics against Hogan, Dusty (NJPW) and Patera all of which are incredibly different. His May of 1980 maybe one of the best months in wrestling history. He is an absolute beast.

 

This is a cool point, and something to think about.

[Chess Knight]

I'm a massive Backlund apologist (I think of that group only Regal, Austin and Jumbo stick out 'I would take him over Bob without much consideration'.....Austin is actually kinda borderline with some deeper thought) but I can't imagine even the people who find Backlund really overrated would rank him below Helmsley, Angle or Scott Hall.

[JerryvonKramer]

This is where my "great matches aren't the only metric" talking point goes into overdrive. I can't think of a guy who it applies to more than Backlund. I'll say more in a bit.

[JerryvonKramer]

Backlund works so well against a variety of opponents in different type of matches that it is hard to deny his awesomeness. In May of 1980, he wrestled ****+ classics against Hogan, Dusty (NJPW) and Patera all of which are incredibly different. His May of 1980 maybe one of the best months in wrestling history. He is an absolute beast.

I don't really agree. I agree that those matches are very good to great, but I don't agree that he's working a different style. He's working one style.

 

He carries the match with Hogan but he does it by forcing Hogan into his match. He works Patera the same way he worked Patterson, Valentine, and Inoki. He can be pushed into a bomb throwing contest (see Great Arab Hussein match), but even then he's doing it a very particular way.

 

Backlund works on top more than just about any guy I can think of. He's more dominant in his matches than Hansen or Vader (I truly believe that). He shows less vulnerability than basically any major babyface I've ever seen.

 

I said this on an upcoming show, but I want to say it here too: Backlund has too much struggle in him. I don't like Inoki for the same reason. It may be 20+ years' worth of being programmed to expect a certain unwritten rule of selling: if a guy is kicking another guy's ass, I expect the other guy to sell it.

 

Backlund doesn't sell it, ever, ever. He's always struggling. Always fighting. Always doing some shit to show he's ... not getting his ass kicked. This is why the the matches with Inoki fucking suck for me, because there's Inoki doing exactly the same thing.

 

"But Jerry, in an actual fight, that's what happens"

 

Well I don't watch pro wrestling for its verismilitude, I'd watch UFC if I wanted that wouldn't I!

 

Backlund is the only guy I've ever seen who will carry another guy by kicking their ass. After years and years of watching guys like Flair, it's very hard for me to adjust to that.

 

I see it as a basic limitiation of Backlund's style.

 

Flair can go in there with ANYONE and he makes them good look by showing ass and bumping like a muthafucker. He can work the proverbial broomstick.

 

We've seen Backlund work broomsticks. We've seen him in there with some really shitty guys and with some more mediocre ones (e.g. Duncum). In fact, Duncum is a good case in point. Here's a guy who is taller than Backlund and heavier than Backlund and billed as a "big man". Backlund just kicks the shit out of him from bell to bell.

 

But Duncum is not Ken Patera or Pat Patterson, so surprise surprise, he's not selling Bob's shit that well and the match sucks. This is why for as many great Backlund matches as there are, there are at least as many that are totally shit.

 

I'd argue that Backlund simply doesn't change up his style to fit the opponent. He works the same way regardless of who it is. You could put that fucker in there with Superman himself and he still won't show you an ounce of vulnerability.

 

Bob is in the business of getting Bob over.

 

That's why I don't like him.

 

In the best matches of his, the MVP for me has almost always been the opponent so far.

 

Backlund or Valentine? Valentine

Backlund or Patterson? Patterson

Backlund or Patera? Patera

 

I don't think it's a coincidence.

 

This isn't just blind prejudice on my part -- Backlund sucks as a promo, I don't like and possibly still don't even understand his basic character -- it's a view I've built up of seeing a lot of Backlund now in different situations, against different opponents. He never changes.

[shoe]

Backlund works so well against a variety of opponents in different type of matches that it is hard to deny his awesomeness. In May of 1980, he wrestled ****+ classics against Hogan, Dusty (NJPW) and Patera all of which are incredibly different. His May of 1980 maybe one of the best months in wrestling history. He is an absolute beast.

I don't really agree. I agree that those matches are very good to great, but I don't agree that he's working a different style. He's working one style.

 

He carries the match with Hogan but he does it by forcing Hogan into his match. He works Patera the same way he worked Patterson, Valentine, and Inoki. He can be pushed into a bomb throwing contest (see Great Arab Hussein match), but even then he's doing it a very particular way.

 

Backlund works on top more than just about any guy I can think of. He's more dominant in his matches than Hansen or Vader (I truly believe that). He shows less vulnerability than basically any major babyface I've ever seen.

 

I said this on an upcoming show, but I want to say it here too: Backlund has too much struggle in him. I don't like Inoki for the same reason. It may be 20+ years' worth of being programmed to expect a certain unwritten rule of selling: if a guy is kicking another guy's ass, I expect the other guy to sell it.

 

Backlund doesn't sell it, ever, ever. He's always struggling. Always fighting. Always doing some shit to show he's ... not getting his ass kicked. This is why the the matches with Inoki fucking suck for me, because there's Inoki doing exactly the same thing.

 

"But Jerry, in an actual fight, that's what happens"

 

 

 

 

I don't see this as a limitation of Backlund. I feel this is a limitation of you as a fan . You're viewing wrestling as their is only this way to work. While if you opened your mind to it their are several ways on how to work. Parv and I argued this on Titans. We disagree a lot on Titans and we agree a lot. Here I think he's off base .

[shoe]

In essence Parv I feel you're putting Bob in a box and saying this is how you should work you're to work this way. I think you should be more open to different ideas on how to work.

[JerryvonKramer]

Not sure I understand your argument here.

 

I believe that a good babyface should sell well and show vulnerability to generate sympathy and connect with the audience.

 

Bob doesn't do that well and somehow it's my limitation as a fan that I think that isn't good? Is this really where you are saying?

[Matt D]

Safer to say that he doesn't fit due to your subjective criteria in this case. We certainly don't have agreed upon criteria between us here. I haven't seen enough key era Backlund to chime in one way or another. How you put it reminds me a little of Greg Gagne's overcompensation though.

[shoe]

Safer to say that he doesn't fit due to your subjective criteria in this case. We certainly don't have agreed upon criteria between us here. I haven't seen enough key era Backlund to chime in one way or another. How you put it reminds me a little of Greg Gagne's overcompensation though.

Matt sums up my point perfectly.

[shoe]

You say your a big fan of characterization. Yet their is only one way to sell. Part of Backlund's character is amateur wrestler , and an underdog. He is constantly fighting. He sells with his fire .

[JerryvonKramer]

"Overcompensation" sums it up well. He has too much to prove so he's scared of appearing weak or vulnerable.

[shoe]

He's not Ricky Morton so he shouldn't have to sell like Ricky Morton. Parv I respect a lot of your opinions. I just don't feel this should be a major knock on Bob.

[JerryvonKramer]

I mean, Pete, you're basically describing Scrappy Doo here.

 

 

Scrappy Backlund.

[shoe]

Thanks for mentioning another aspect of Bob. yes Bob is a scrappy baby face in the territory of the big man.

[JerryvonKramer]

So should Spike Dudley have not sold for the same reason? I'm just trying to get how or why you think it's ok for Backlund never to show any vulnerability.

 

In terms of people who never show weakness we're looking at:

 

Superman

Bob Backlund

Road Warrior Hawk

Triple H