Dave Meltzer stuff

[Matt D]

The AA looks like crap and always has. I don't think the execution of one signature move, especially one that's always been pretty over, is really what we're talking about here on either extreme.

[Loss]

Yes, but Cena has other positives Kane doesn't have. And that's always been the single most annoying thing about Kane to me, so I felt the need to point it out.

[El-P]

Kane does a flying clothesline where he lands on his feet and then just does a forward roll. It's one of the laziest, worst looking spots in wrestling. I don't understand his rep.

I think he's safe and easy to work with, that's probably where his rep comes from. As a geek viewer, Kane is mediocre at his very best, and mostly shitty and boring as fuck. Has been for the last 15 years. Made quite a career out of a goofy gimmick that had no long term value at first. Gotta give him credit for that I guess, I never though Isaac Yankem DDS would be a WWF lifer.

 

(and yes, his flying clothesline looks like complete shit. Not enzuigiri Tenryu bad, just complete shit bad)

[Matt D]

Yes, but Cena has other positives Kane doesn't have. And that's always been the single most annoying thing about Kane to me, so I felt the need to point it out.

Duly noted.

 

Let's move on.

[Al]

Kane's a mediocre worker, but I think he's also a valuable worker given his versatility and longevity.

[Loss]

Duly noted.

 

Let's move on.

Where would you like the conversation to move? Lead the way.

[Victator]

Kane rules, has had more good matches than bad. Really good at selling for much smaller opponents and putting over limb damage.

 

Really do not get the bitching about his flying clothesline.

[Loss]

If you're an upper midcarder/headliner for 15 years, you should have at least one classic match on your resume. You should have quite a few great matches too. Does he even have one?

 

I have never seen all of these good Kane matches. Has he ever done 25 things worth watching?

[rovert]

A co-worker point of view is something that has really nothing to do with our way at looking at things.

But it does with Dave. The person this thread is about and the person who made that statement.

 

Kane's peers love him. Rufus Jones was exceptionally popular with the boys.

I don't hear Wrestlers talk about those two like they do with Lynn though. With Lynn it is more of a "and he is a good guy" rather than "but he is a good guy" if you get me.

[Matt D]

Duly noted.

 

Let's move on.

Where would you like the conversation to move? Lead the way.

 

I just don't want it to go back to Kane. We've been there already. Maybe seven months ago. You said the same things. People contested them because you went in with SUCH extremes. You didn't give a damn. So no, I don't want to revisit that conversation.

 

How about we regroup.

 

Meltzer has always cared about what Wrestlers thought about their peers. I really, truly think a lot of his views developed like they did through talking to Flair in the 80s. And a lot of those viewpoints impacted the evolution of our "community's" perspective over the years, but ...

 

Actually, alright, what about this.

 

The sheer amount of footage out there now and the ease of accessibility is sort of like the Reformation. At one point Meltzer and a few others were reading to us in Latin since none of us knew it. Now we have the means to make decisions for ourselves and every now and again Dylan goes on the Wrestling Classics board (or even better now, the WON board) and posts up his theses.

[Victator]

I have never seen all of these good Kane matches. Has he ever done 25 things worth watching?

Why don't you explain how he is bad. I explained what he does well. A few months ago, I even made a list of good matches he was a part of (which is not complete.)

 

Your mentality is "He's bad because uh he's bad."

 

I saw a match Kane and Boogieman had with the Blue Bloods. Kane worked the entire match and put in a great performance. Now you could say it was Regal and Taylor. But since Kane was the one having to sell and put over the Blue Bloods, the match working was dependent on Kane.

[Matt D]

And lo, the circle continues.

[Loss]

So should I respond to the Kane question or should I not? I'm hearing mixed messages (and a hostility I don't understand too).

[Victator]

Don't worry about it, I'm hostile to everyone due to a crumbling personal life.

[jdw]

Isn't there already a Kane thread?

 

John

[Matt D]

Explained it in the other note but I was getting Loss and Will confused. Which I occasionally do here. Sorry!

 

my main point was that we really didn't need to do this again.

[Ricky Jackson]

The sheer amount of footage out there now and the ease of accessibility is sort of like the Reformation. At one point Meltzer and a few others were reading to us in Latin and none of us knew it. Now we have the means to make decisions for ourselves and ever now and again Dylan goes on the Wrestling Classics board (or even better now, the WON board) and posts up his theses.

The history geek in me loves this quote. I'm not sure if it's 100% accurate, but fuck it, it sounds good.

[Dylan Waco]

Well, I was raised Lutheran and did go to junior seminary...

[jdw]

It's half true.

 

If we're talking about the 80s, Meltzer and other tape traders / sellers / collectors would have seen (if they so desired):

 

* every weekly WWF TV show

* every WWF MSG / Philly / Boston / Los Angeles show that was taped

* all of the WWF home releases

* all of the WWF PPVs

* all of the SNME

* the WWF house shows that came to their towns

 

* every weekly JCP show

* special stuff that leaked out like Starcade '86

* JCP/WCW ppvs

* all of the specials

* any JCP stuff that aired in Japan

* any JCP show that was in their town and/or they traveled to

 

* Watts tv

* special stuff that leaked out of Wattsville

 

* AWA TV

* Florida TV

* Memphis TV

* Georgia TV

* Portland TV

* etc US promotions that they wanted to watch

 

* weekly NJPW TV

* weekly AJPW TV

* AJW TV

* UWF 1.0 stuff that got commercial release

* UWF 2.0 stuff that got released

 

I'm sure there's other stuff that I'm missing... but the point:

 

There was a shitload of stuff available in the 80s.

 

What's available to us not from that period is somewhat on the margins. Not insignificant, but a small % of what is currently available from the 80s. 10%? 5%? Not more than 10%, and it would be hard to say it's above 5%.

 

For some promotions it's more. Watts house show stuff, for example.

 

But for some promotions it's less. We may go bonkers for the 2/87 Macho-Steamer from Toronto as a "hidden gem", but considering the MSG, Philly and Boston shows for 1987 were pretty much all available in 1987, the sum total of matches added by all the 1987 Toronto shows that are now available along with all of the 1987 Houston shows that are now available (neither of which seemed to be in circulation in 1987), that adds what %? There were 32 cards in the usual arenas. It looks like 16 in Toronto, not close to all of them have been made available. There were 9 shows in Houston, again not close to all of them have been made available. But it's a worse % than that: a staggering number of matches from those Toronto and Houston tapings made it onto Primetime. Take just this card:

 

WWF @ Houston, TX - Sam Houston Coliseum - December 11, 1987 (2,000+)

Featured Bruce Prichard, Mike McGuirk, & Pete Doherty on commentary:

Prime Time Wrestling - 12/28/87: Sam Houston pinned Dusty Wolfe at 8:36 with a bulldog

Prime Time Wrestling - 12/21/87: Hercules pinned the Junkyard Dog at 8:15 with his feet on the ropes

Prime Time Wrestling - 12/28/87: Greg Valentine defetaed Ken Johnson via submission with the figure-4 at 3:04

Prime Time Wrestling - 1/12/88: Demolition (w/ Mr. Fuji) defeated Billy Jack Haynes & Brady Boone (sub. for an injured Ken Patera) (w/ Ken Patera) at 10:22 when Smash pinned Boone after dropping him throat-first across the top rope

Rick Rude pinned Paul Orndorff

The One Man Gang pinned Brutus Beefcake after Beefcake became distracted by Slick on the apron

WWF Tag Team Champions Rick Martel & Tito Santana defeated Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart via disqualification

Prime Time Wrestling - 12/21/87: The Ultimate Warrior pinned Iron Mike Sharpe at 5:31 following a press slam

Ricky Steamboat pinned Ron Bass

Prime Time Wrestling - 12/28/87: Greg Valentine defeated Ken Johnson via submission with the figure-4 at 3:04

WWF World Champion Hulk Hogan pinned Ted Dibiase (w/ Virgil & Andre the Giant) at 9:30 with a roll up after Dibiase collided with Virgil on the apron; the referee originally called for the bell at 6:06 after Andre tripped Hogan from the outside, with referee Dave Hebner ordering Andre backstage and fining him $2000 (Hulk Hogan - Real American)

11 Matches

6 on Primetime

1 on CHV release

4 on neither

 

Or this one from Toronto:

 

WWF @ Toronto, Ontario - Maple Leaf Gardens - February 15, 1987 (17,000)

Featured Gorilla Monsoon & Bobby Heenan on commentary with Billy Red Lyons subbing for Heenan during the Race / JYD and Harts / Bees matches

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/2/87: Ron Bass pinned SD Jones at 6:53 with a flying back elbow

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/2/87: Sika pinned Moondog Spot at 6:56 with a Samoan Drop

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/2/87: Cpl. Kirschner pinned Johnny K-9 (sub. for Butch Reed) with a Samoan Drop at 11:11; prior to the bout, Slick came to the ring and announced that Reed would not be able to compete because he was suffering from the flu; Kirschner then chased Slick backstage

Roddy Piper defeated Adrian Adonis (w/ Jimmy Hart) via disqualification at 10:07 after Adonis sprayed perfume in Piper's eyes; after the bout, a blinded Piper attacked the ring announcer and referee

Prime Time Wrestling - 3/2/87: Paul Orndorff (w/ Bobby Heenan) pinned Pedro Morales at 4:29 with his feet on the ropes after the momentum of a crossbody by Morales put Orndorff on top

King Harley Race (w/ Bobby Heenan) pinned the Junkyard Dog at 6:08 with a belly to belly suplex after JYD began attacking Heenan in the ring

WWF IC Champion Randy Savage (w/ Miss Elizabeth) pinned Ricky Steamboat at 13:39 with a reverse roll up and grabbing the tights for leverage

Prime Time Wrestling -3/2/87: B. Brian Blair & Jim Brunzell defeated WWF Tag Team Champions Bret Hart & Jim Neidhart (w/ Jimmy Hart) in a non-title match at 7:37 after Blair - the illegal man - pinned Bret with a sunset flip off the top after the Bees used their masks to switch places in the ring

8 Matches

5 on Primetime

3 not on Primetime

 

The next Toronto card had 7 of 9 on Primetime.

 

I sincerely doubt we've added 5% to the total number of matches available in the 80s for the WWF.

 

Granted, some of the stuff that didn't make it is the stuff we wanted to see: Steamer-Savage / Hogan-Ted. But with a lot of those matches, there were versions in other cities. There were lots of Steamer-Savage matches available in 1986/87. Same goes for other things that have popped up.

 

But...

 

I think we can overplay it a bit.

 

What we do have is a good number of people going back and watching stuff in mass, often over the course of a relatively short time period (as opposed to watching all of 1986-89 JCP over the course of, you know... 1986-89 like we did back in the day). They're either looking at it with fresh eyes (having not seen it before), or with generally open minds (as much as that possible, but admittedly we all bring stuff to the table in that respect).

 

As we talked about with other promotions, a lot of what people with "revisionist eyes" happen to like is exactly what people liked back then (Choshu, Fujinami, Tenryu, Jumbo) so it's not exactly a revision, revolution or revelation. In turn, there are some folks that didn't get much run at the time (Fujiwara) that have now... or got run then and are now slagged (Tigeryama).

 

It is far easier to access now. But I think people underestimate the obsessive nature of the biggest collectors back them. Yohe wasn't a trader/seller, but he has a house and garage full of tapes he got from people like Lynch, Frielander and Munari. I don't even want to think of how much puroresu that Zavisa had back in the day when it was all on tape... but it was truly insane amounts. And again, collection on the margin adds... margins. Such as...

 

2/87 Steamer-Savage in Toronto is one of the best WWF matches of the decade, and adds a missing component to the feud. But:

 

* we knew Steamer-Savage was one of the great feuds of the decade

* we had other matches between them that were top flight

* we had one other WWF MOTD candidate (setting aside arguments about the Mania match)

* we knew Steamer was a great worker

* we knew Savage was a great worker

 

I'm thankful that the 2/87 match is out there now. Fab match. But it adds to the margins of the big picture of the WWF in the 80s.

 

Not sure all of that is clear since it's a long response. My point is that the comment is "half true", and we can tend to make more out of what we're doing than really is there.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

Another thing to keep in mind is that digital technology has made it far easier to watch all the footage you get. I have shit tons of tapes in my house, many that I NEVER got around to watching. Being able to skip ahead by chapter, or look out for more easily digestible matches in a slew of shit is a major advantage DVD's/streaming sites/DL's have over VHS tapes.

[Loss]

Also, generally speaking, Riki Choshu and Tatsumi Fujinami were talked about a lot by hardcore fans in the 80s and then ignored for most of the next 20 years. They certainly weren't as discussed as Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada, Liger, Jumbo, Benoit, Guerrero, Toyota, Vader, Otani and Hansen. Maybe it's not revisionism, but it's not like there has been anyone banging the drum for them consistently over time. You could say the same for just about every heavyweight to work in New Japan even through the 90s. The good ones got praise at the time the matches happened, but it wasn't sustained.

[Matt D]

Not sure all of that is clear since it's a long response. My point is that the comment is "half true", and we can tend to make more out of what we're doing than really is there.

 

John

Kind of what I was saying and kind of not. There are levels of availability.

 

You, tape trader, man in the loop, show-goer, acquaintance of Konnan, were monastery trained.

 

I, on the other hand, can watch a million billion hours of wrestling on YOUTUBE and DAILYMOTION right now.

 

And if I wanted to. I could buy a WHOLE SEASON of something for pennies compared to what it probably would have cost me 20 years ago. With a whole lot less effort.

[jdw]

Also, generally speaking, Riki Choshu and Tatsumi Fujinami were talked about a lot by hardcore fans in the 80s and then ignored for most of the next 20 years. They certainly weren't as discussed as Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada, Liger, Jumbo, Benoit, Guerrero, Toyota, Vader, Otani and Hansen. Maybe it's not revisionism, but it's not like there has been anyone banging the drum for them consistently over time. You could say the same for just about every heavyweight to work in New Japan even through the 90s. The good ones got praise at the time the matches happened, but it wasn't sustained.

We had this discussion in another thread. Short version:

 

I'm pretty sure that Dylan specifically has been pushing Fujinami since the Fujinami-DK match came out and he liked it way more than the overrated DK-TM matches. That pushing goes back to the old A1 Wrestling board... which was a hell of a long time again. While I would agree that Fujinami generally wasn't pushed much by hardcores in the 90s, it's largely because he wasn't doing a whole lot of interesting stuff in the 90s (other than bleeding all over Tenryu out of his nose... which was certainly talked about! ).

 

On Choshu, he certainly was talked about in the 90s. I did. I put over Jumbo & Tenryu vs Choshu & Yatsu since the day I got online. I talked about Choshu-Fujinami. I put over Choshu-Hash in the 11/01/91 card even while most people wanted to talk about the other two title matches on the card. Of course I put over their match at the 1996 G1: I was there, and pimped the living fuck out of it. I could go look up when Frank put together his Choshu's Army tapes... my guess is the first half of the 00's. He wrote his Gordy List for Ishingundan in 2003, and two supplemental pieces in 2005.

 

I'm a broken record on this, but if Frank and/or I am to be blamed for have the puroresu-think that's out there ("Can we say Taue sucked in 1994?"), then perhaps a little credit should be dished out for keeping Choshu pimping alive online in the 90s and 00s. Granted, it wasn't as thrilling as what people reading into my Flair comments or Kobashi comments over the years.

 

John

[Loss]

My intent wasn't to single you out. I realize it did read like that. If you did discuss Fujinami and Choshu during that stretch, that's great. I stand corrected. But it didn't take off in the way the pimping posts did, or the Flair and Jumbo revisionism, or the Brody talk. Those are all things that seemed to get more traction.

[jdw]

Not sure all of that is clear since it's a long response. My point is that the comment is "half true", and we can tend to make more out of what we're doing than really is there.

 

John

Kind of what I was saying and kind of not. There are levels of availability.

 

You, tape trader, man in the loop, show-goer, acquaintance of Konnan, were monastery trained.

 

I, on the other hand, can watch a million billion hours of wrestling on YOUTUBE and DAILYMOTION right now.

 

And if I wanted to. I could buy a WHOLE SEASON of something for pennies compared to what it probably would have cost me 20 years ago. With a whole lot less effort.

 

Which is something I covered in my piece.

 

But here's the thing:

 

You can buy the whole seasons of AJPW 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996 on disc or download them on the cheap.

 

I happened to watch them... back in 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996. I wasn't the only one.

 

Same goes for people getting season sets of Raw 1997 now, 15 years after the fact, and being 22 years old thinking they're seeing some great discovery. Lots of us watched the shit on our TV at the time.

 

So my point:

 

Half true.

 

Access is easy and cheap now. It allows one to easily get a mass of shit to watch.

 

But lets not underestimate how much people in the past watched. And that if they watched a crapload at the time, how much on the margin the "new discoveries" are to them.

 

I just did a post over in the 1990 Yearbook about a match that I haven't seen. Don't know if Ditch has, but from his writing on a match 10 days later in the same building, it appears that he hasn't either. I watched all the TV from that year, but it's a non-TV match that's been out there for years. There's a strong chance that it's a real cool match. But its addition to an understanding and enjoyment of 90s AJPW? Marginal:

 

* we know Kikuchi got over with AJPW fans in that period

* we know his rivalry with Fuchi was cool

* we know he played a cool role in the Jumbo & Co. vs Misawa & Co feud

* we know he was a pretty fun worker

 

There's probably not a lot the match can tell us that we don't know, other than adding another cool match to the body of work, and getting to see as close to the front end of some things as we probably can get.

 

I'd like to see the match now. But if I don't get around to watching it for three years, it's not going impact what I think and/or know about AJPW in the 90s.

 

John