Dave Meltzer stuff

[goc]

If I'm not mistaken, what Dave said about the Eddy/Rey house show matches was that audiences were disappointed by them because they were expecting lots of high-flying lucha action.

I saw one of the Eddy/Rey house show matches at the Cow Palace and it was awesome. However, if fans were at all disappointed I wouldn't totally blame them as the program (sold at the show itself AND what WWE had posted on their website) billed it as "Eddy Guerrero vs. Rey Mysterio in the Match of the Year!"

 

Ugh. I thought that was something only RoH would advertise.

[blueminister]

"We promise you least three finisher kickouts or your money will be refunded at the gate."

[Guest Andrews]

If I'm not mistaken, what Dave said about the Eddy/Rey house show matches was that audiences were disappointed by them because they were expecting lots of high-flying lucha action.

 

Anwyay, that quote from the archives is from his Summerslam 1995 review, which also contains the following love letter to HBK:

 

You can call him the Ric Flair of the 90s or the most talented American worker of all-time. You should call him WWF champion. Michaels, in comparison with Flair, is far superior athletically, and as charismatic as Flair was at his peak, Michaels has the potential to far surpass him there. Michaels is not Flair's equal on interviews and Flair's one advantage when it comes to in-ring performance is that in his prime he did it 300 nights a year with a level of consistency that Michaels and nobody else in WWF can come close to. But I don't think on Flair's best day he could have put on a show like Michaels did at SummerSlam.

I don't think even Shawn's mom would go that far.

 

Also, in his review of that year's KOTR, he said that Lawler wrestled an outdated style. These days, he's a lot more appreciative of Lawler and not quite as enamored of Hot Moves.

 

Times change though. "MOVES" in the mid 90's were a revelation after so many damn years of very basic WWF action.

 

Anyway, interesting to see what Dave was saying about Michaels back in 1995. As far as I'm concerned, by that point, Michaels work hadn't come close to Bret Hart's body of work. He would only surpass Bret upon his return and from 2008 onwards through 2009.

[jdw]

Shawn wasn't "hot moves", anymore than Flair was. They brought something that appealed to Dave that was different from Liger or Kobashi busting out the cool moves.

 

John

[Matt D]

There's a difference between hot moves and action

[jdw]

Hot moves are just another form of action.

 

John

[tomk]

If I'm not mistaken, what Dave said about the Eddy/Rey house show matches was that audiences were disappointed by them because they were expecting lots of high-flying lucha action.

 

Well what Dave said depends on if it you asked Dave in June or August.

 

In June he wrote

"This is one of those matches where you have a veteran, Guerrero, who is in total control. He took the crowd up and down at will. He just didn't will it alot. It's the kind of match that veteran and retired wrestlers would rave about, while all the fans around me were complaining about how boring it was. It was Guerrero largely working the left arm, and I mean he was a pro at it, but when people see Mysterio vs. Guerrero they clearly want to see Lucha Libre, fast moving and high flying, and not what they were giving."

In August he wrote

 

"Guerrero has a lot of bad matches. He and Mysterio stunk up the joint at the last San jose house show...A big difference from an athletic condition is Benoit is in so much better cardiovascular condition. A lot of the guys who are in awesome shape in WWE have to slow down for Guerrero. Nobody has to slow down for Benoit. That's in particular the difference between Angle, whose conditioning is probably the best in the company, in having so many classics with Benoit and have "only" very very good matches with Guerrero"

The live show reports from snarky gringos for these shows was that Eddy v Rey was super hot match with crowd of dumb markish Mexicans eating out of palm of hand because they had never seen Halloween Havoc.

 

Controlling crowd at will but people wanted to see X division sprint becoming stank up the joint do to bad cardio...

I would suggest in this case that the difference between Lords Of Pain show reviewer [email protected], is that 420 at least recognized that the audience wanted a different match than he did.

[Indikator]

Really interesting passage about Bob Sapp in the new issue.... years after it happened of course

 

Rick Bassman, the former UPW promoter who was directly responsible for getting Ultimate Warrior and Sting into pro wrestling, as well as to a lesser extent John Cena (Cena was actually recruited by the Bell Brothers, who wrestled for UPW), is doing a kickstarter campaign to fund publishing an autobiography. At press time, Bassman had raised just under $42,000. He needs $50,000 by 4/1 or, by the rules of kickstarter, he gets nothing. Bassman has had an amazing life, to say the least. He had a hand in starting the careers of some of the biggest names of the past 30 years. He hit rock bottom in life. He was the conduit for more than 40 wrestlers getting WWE deals over the years. He and also booked talent for Zero-One and K-1 in Japan. He was heavily involved in the Japanese scene. He was the point man in the negotiations between WWE and Bob Sapp, where Sapp was offered the largest guaranteed contract in WWE history. This was to include Sapp walking in and winning one of their world title within weeks of his arrival. Sapp turned it down. I don’t know that Sapp would have main evented Mania, but Sapp had told me in 2006 what he had been told his booking plans were, and the first several months were, to a T, exactly what happened with Bobby Lashley, who was in the real main event at the 2007 Mania. Sapp had all the charisma in the world, but in my mind, he wasn’t the “guy who got away,” as some in WWE categorized him because of how much Vince wanted him, but it was the best for all concerned because he would not have survived the schedule, because he was so used to doing a show every few weeks and getting big cash.

[S.L.L.]

Times change though. "MOVES" in the mid 90's were a revelation after so many damn years of very basic WWF action.

Aside from what jdw said, it's not like Dave only watched WWF up until that point, either. He had exposure to a wide range of stuff, including wrestling that was far more moves-heavy than Shawn's work ever was.

[Matt D]

Basically Dave likes Michael Bay?

[Loss]

Dave likes wrestlers that put on a "show" first and foremost, where everything else is secondary. Flair, Michaels, Angle and Kobashi all fit that category. It's more about entertaining an audience than convincing them of a specific point.

[Matt D]

I like my say of saying it better

[NintendoLogic]

Controlling crowd at will but people wanted to see X division sprint becoming stank up the joint do to bad cardio...

That's not what Dave wrote. He wrote that Eddy and Rey had a bad match in San Jose and that Benoit's cardiovascular conditioning was superior to Eddy's. They're two separate unrelated thoughts. Also, the part about controlling the crowd at will wasn't in reference to the match in San Jose. He was talking about a completely different match at a house show in San Diego.

 

Dave likes wrestlers that put on a "show" first and foremost, where everything else is secondary. Flair, Michaels, Angle and Kobashi all fit that category. It's more about entertaining an audience than convincing them of a specific point.

I don't quite agree with this. I think it's true that all other things being equal, he prefers fast-paced matches with lots of high-end offense. But he's given high ratings to plenty of matches that don't meet those criteria. Someone who thinks that Randy Orton is one of the top three workers in WWE clearly isn't someone who puts too much of a premium on the ability to put on a show.

 

Anyway, here's a quote from the most recent Observer that I thought was interesting given the discussion several months ago about how far heels could go to get heat in the old days:

 

The funny part about “old school wrestling,” is that in most places (not all) in the territorial era, swearing by heels wasn’t even allowed. It was considered a sign that the heel didn’t have enough talent to get over.

[goc]

Anyway, here's a quote from the most recent Observer that I thought was interesting given the discussion several months ago about how far heels could go to get heat in the old days:

 

The funny part about “old school wrestling,” is that in most places (not all) in the territorial era, swearing by heels wasn’t even allowed. It was considered a sign that the heel didn’t have enough talent to get over.

I'm not sure you can really compare that aspect. You really just weren't allowed to swear on TV at all during that time period. There was no swearing on TV in the 60s or 70s and very little by the time most territories dried up in the mid-80s.

 

Some heels today might be able to swear (although they don't really do it in WWE anymore) but they would have their shows thrown off TV if they did some of the race baiting angles that took place back then.

[tomk]

That's not what Dave wrote. He wrote that Eddy and Rey had a bad match in San Jose and that Benoit's cardiovascular conditioning was superior to Eddy's. They're two separate unrelated thoughts. Also, the part about controlling the crowd at will wasn't in reference to the match in San Jose. He was talking about a completely different match at a house show in San Diego.

Where can I find out about this different June 05 houseshow in San Diego?

What was on that card?

 

WWE @ Tucson, AZ - Convention Center - June 21, 2005

 

Rey Mysterio Jr. pinned Eddie Guerrero with the 619 and springboard legdrop to the back of the head at around the 26-minute mark

WWE (Smackdown!) @ San Jose, CA - HP Pavilion - June 26, 2005 (matinee)

Rey Mysterio Jr. defeated Eddie Guerrero in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-1; fall #1: Guerrero defeated Mysterio via submission with a Texas Cloverleaf; fall #2: Mysterio pinned Guerrero with an inside cradle; fall #3: Mysterio pinned Guerrero with the 619 / springboard legdrop combo

What he wrote in Observer about the smackdown match---

 

Main was Guerrero vs. Mysterio. They went 27:38 in what was mainly an old school style relatively slow paced match that built well. It came off to me as two guys who are far better doing 15-18 minutes, but changed their game because they were booked to do almost twice as long as that, and proved that they could do it well

what he wrote about the houseshow match e saw that weekend

 

This is one of those matches where you have a veteran, Guerrero, who is in total control. He took the crowd up and down at will. He just didn't will it alot. It's the kind of match that veteran and retired wrestlers would rave about, while all the fans around me were complaining about how boring it was. It was Guerrero largely working the left arm, and I mean he was a pro at it, but when people see Mysterio vs. Guerrero they clearly want to see Lucha Libre, fast moving and high flying, and not what they were giving

[NintendoLogic]

Sorry, I was going by your quotation of the Observer where you said he was talking about a match in San Diego:

 

http://wrestlingclassics.com/.ubb/ultimate...7375;p=1#000033

 

In any event, Dave didn't say that he disliked the match. He said that the people in the audience thought it was boring. I'm sure that to Dave, having a match the audience hates, even if he personally enjoyed it, would constitute stinking up the joint.

[NintendoLogic]

Anyway, here's a quote from the most recent Observer that I thought was interesting given the discussion several months ago about how far heels could go to get heat in the old days:

 

The funny part about “old school wrestling,” is that in most places (not all) in the territorial era, swearing by heels wasn’t even allowed. It was considered a sign that the heel didn’t have enough talent to get over.

I'm not sure you can really compare that aspect. You really just weren't allowed to swear on TV at all during that time period. There was no swearing on TV in the 60s or 70s and very little by the time most territories dried up in the mid-80s.

 

Some heels today might be able to swear (although they don't really do it in WWE anymore) but they would have their shows thrown off TV if they did some of the race baiting angles that took place back then.

 

It wasn't just four-letter words. It was stuff that wouldn't even raise an eyebrow today. Back in the 60s, Stampede Wrestling was thrown off TV after Iron Mike DiBiase said that if brains were dynamite, the people of Calgary wouldn't be able to blow their noses. I'm sure not everywhere was that strict, but it does indicate the general mindset.

[Loss]

It's also weird to call what Bully Ray said "swearing". Not to mention that even if swearing wasn't allowed in the 1970s, the same type of gay baiting and race baiting most definitely was allowed and even encouraged.

[goc]

It's also weird to call what Bully Ray said "swearing". Not to mention that even if swearing wasn't allowed in the 1970s, the same type of gay baiting and race baiting most definitely was allowed and even encouraged.

This is really what I was trying to get at with my earlier post.

[Matt D]

Finlay still hasn't been rehired yet,right?

[goc]

Yea he's been back since last July. He was on the 20th Anniversary Raw helping pull apart CM Punk & The Rock.

[flyonthewall2983]

Iron Mike DiBiase said that if brains were dynamite, the people of Calgary wouldn't be able to blow their noses.

I know I'm going to be in bed tonight, wide awake trying to figure out the sense in this.

[Slasher]

Iron Mike DiBiase said that if brains were dynamite, the people of Calgary wouldn't be able to blow their noses.

I know I'm going to be in bed tonight, wide awake trying to figure out the sense in this.

 

My guess is he meant that the people COULD blow their noses, implying there is nothing upstairs in those people's heads.

[Chess Knight]

I assumed he meant their brains are so small they'd fly out of their nose if they were blow them. And if the brains were dynamite they'd destroy parts of Calgary, so blowing your nose wouldn't be legal. I guess I'm not totally sure whether he means 'able' as in 'physically able', or 'able' as in 'allowed to', though I'm assuming the latter.

[jpchicago23]

I've heard the joke before and I always took it as blowing your nose puts stress on your head so if you brain was dynamite your head would explode from blowing it.