Dave Meltzer stuff

[Loss]

Also, Joe, I'd love to make a custom match list for you of stuff I think you'd enjoy from Memphis and other territories that has a surprising amount of action and highspots. Would you be receptive?

[goodhelmet]

Don't waste your time. I believe Joe said he would rather claw his eyes out or burn in a house of fire than watch a Bill Dundee match.

[cm funk]

I'd rather watch Great Khali matches than half of the guys on that list. I mean that sincerely. My tastes are wildly different. To me workrate is watching Khali use the ropes.

[W2BTD]

Also, Joe, I'd love to make a custom match list for you of stuff I think you'd enjoy from Memphis and other territories that has a surprising amount of action and highspots. Would you be receptive?

 

Thanks, but no need to go through that effort. I've seen a ton of Memphis. I've seen a ton of Lawler. Running right up to the mid 90's USWA era when I was tape trading with people who didn't have access to ECW.

 

I'm not ignorant to the style or completely closed minded about it. There are facets of it that I like. The angles & promos are top notch. When it comes to the bell to bell, most of it is just not my bag. I will never "get" Bill Dundee, for example. I've tried. It isn't happening. Lawler I don't even think is bad, which is what I think people are taking away from this, but that's not the case. Not that this won't equally infuriate people, but I would classify him as firmly average. I can take him, or leave him. Mostly leave him truth be told, but god he's not Dundee. As someone who does not particularly care about things like punches or brawls or blood, many of the classic Memphis brawl style bouts do absolutely nothing for me. Southern tags can be hit or miss for me. The simplistic psychology loses me sometimes. Along those lines, PG 13 love is something that baffles me. I watched them every week during their peak, and I always found them to be complete shit.

 

Anyway, i'm drifting. The genesis of the conversation has drifted. I stand by my thought that Lawler was never widely considered a "workrate" guy, which was clearly the spirit of that Observer poll when you look at the names.The problem, of course, is what people consider great workrate, vs being a great wrestler, and how it all correlates.

[goodhelmet]

Joe, go in the good wrestling thread I created and let us know what you think makes wrestling good. I know Dylan briefly mentioned you were an action guy and I only know what is in my head when i watch the guys on your list. However, I am fascinated by the idea of what you think creates a good or great wrestling match.

[W2BTD]

Joe, go in the good wrestling thread I created and let us know what you think makes wrestling good. I know Dylan briefly mentioned you were an action guy and I only know what is in my head when i watch the guys on your list. However, I am fascinated by the idea of what you think creates a good or great wrestling match.

 

I posted in that thread.

[Loss]

If you've seen the stuff and have formed a value judgment based on that, I can begrudgingly accept that. Fair enough. I think it makes it a little difficult to engage because I don't know what to talk about with someone who feels like they know where they stand on everything. But you're new here and I don't know you well, so we'll see. That may be an unfair takeaway.

 

I do agree with your general premise that Lawler would be out of place on a list like that, not because he's completely outclassed but because the WON mythology has become pretty self-fulfilling for the most part. Nothing needs to be reconsidered. Everything was figured out years ago when it was actually happening. If Lawler was a great worker, everyone would just know he was a great worker. Why? Because he was a great worker. I don't think that has anything to do with your point, but I do think it's at the root of WON cannon. That mindset drives me crazy, but it is what it is.

[W2BTD]

My taste in wrestling generally falls in line with Meltzer's. At least more than most of you guys here. He does tend to go crazy for certain things that I don't (Edge. Orton. Joshi. WWE 00's main event style. Choshu. Jumbo.), but I would say that in general, he likes the same things I like.

[Dylan Waco]

I am somewhat shocked that Joe doesn't like Joshi.

 

I'm still not sure the purpose of that poll was to get at peoples "workrate." Is Bret Hart really a workrate guy? Tenryu?

[W2BTD]

I am somewhat shocked that Joe doesn't like Joshi.

 

I'm still not sure the purpose of that poll was to get at peoples "workrate." Is Bret Hart really a workrate guy? Tenryu?

 

Of course it was. It wasn't a list of biggest stars. It was a list of guys generally considered great workers.

[Dylan Waco]

 

I am somewhat shocked that Joe doesn't like Joshi.

 

I'm still not sure the purpose of that poll was to get at peoples "workrate." Is Bret Hart really a workrate guy? Tenryu?

 

Of course it was. It wasn't a list of biggest stars. It was a list of guys generally considered great workers.

 

 

Yes, and as clearly stated before workrate is not a synonym for work.

[Bix]

 

 

I am somewhat shocked that Joe doesn't like Joshi.

 

I'm still not sure the purpose of that poll was to get at peoples "workrate." Is Bret Hart really a workrate guy? Tenryu?

 

Of course it was. It wasn't a list of biggest stars. It was a list of guys generally considered great workers.

 

 

Yes, and as clearly stated before workrate is not a synonym for work.

 

Yes, workrate is a literal term, talking about speed and physical effort. Eventually it became conflated with "work" because Scott Keith/his disciples and to a lesser extent Dave pushing guys with the best workrate as the best workers.

[Matt D]

The DVDVR Workrate reports very often didn't end up talking about the traditional idea of "workrate" either, especially the ones with the What Worked/What didn't work? categories.

[Bix]

Weren't they called "workrate" because they went over the rate of which segments worked? (Hence "what worked/what didn't work)

[Matt D]

I think it was a blurry line?

[W2BTD]

People getting bogged down in semantics.

 

It was a workrate list, in the sense that it was a list of guys who are generally considered to be some of the best workers of all time. You guys are over complicating things by getting wrapped up in the semantics of worker/workrate. It's pretty clear what the list was intended to be, unless you don't want it to be.

 

Workrate has evolved into a synonym for work. I never hear anybody use the term "good workrate" anymore to describe someone who works a hard pace but isn't a good worker. It's morphed into the same thing.

[W2BTD]

Come to think of it, nobody really uses "workrate" at all very much these days, period. This thread is the most i've seen it used in recent memory.

[sek69]

 

His love of Tanahashi is getting to be too much. On that Observer Sin show he went on and on about how Tanahashi is the best in the world and so on.

 

There was a poll of the best wrestlers from 1980 till today and Tanahashi was included, but not Lawler or Funk. It's too much already.

 

 

The peak of the Tanahasi love on that show was Mike already declaring him WOTY for 2014 and even Dave had to slow him down and say, "It's February"

 

As far as Bryan's merch goes, I've bought one wrestling t-shirt in my entire life (Jerichoholic).....but I hear Dave and Alvarez harping on how terrible his merch is and I don't really see what's so terrible about it. I wouldn't buy any of it, but I wouldn't buy any of the shirts WWE makes. I think the maroon colour scheme works for Bryan, and those simple YES YES YES or NO NO NO shirts appear to have been big sellers based on how many of them you'd see in the crowd.

 

And whoever said that talk about merchandise started because of CM Punk.....you can't be serious. Merchandise has been a talking point since the 80's. I'm sure if somebody wanted to bother going back through the Observer archives you would find lots of talk of guys who move merch. God, just in the attitude era, you don't think Dave was talking about DX and Austin moving merch? Or the nWo shirts? Or ECW shirts? The idea that nobody was aware of merch moving until CM Punk in 2011 is absolutely absurd

 

 

 

I think what they were referring to is Punk was the first guy other than Cena to sell a ton of different shirts.

 

As far as Bryan's merch goes, consider that Vince is seriously basing whether or not to give him the full main event push -not on him getting the best and biggest reactions on every show for months- but on shit like this selling:

 

 

 

 

It's the same shit that went down when Vince had to be convinced to put the belt on Rey. As soon as they did it, he would look for reasons to get it off him. It sounds like internet conspiracy theory nonsense, but I could totally see them only making shit merch for Bryan and then Vince/HHH can say "well we can't make him a main eventer, the guy just doesn't move any of the metrics we look at".

[Dylan Waco]

Joe, you are missing the point. If this was a "workrate" poll I would have no problem with the leaving off Lawler on the grounds that he had never been viewed as that sort of great worker. But to say he has never been viewed as a great worker by a significant portion of fans is something that I know to be false. Meltzer who is hardly a PWO type (if such a thing even exists) recently said Lawler was a great worker himself on an audio show. Various fans on the net have pimped him as a great worker for years, including guys I rarely agree with. I will say that Lawlers profile has risen in recent years with the rise of available footage, but as with Buddy Rose(and even more so in the case of Lawler), there were plenty of people calling him a great worker before this site ever existed.

 

I still don't think it was odd that he wasn't on the poll on that site, but I also wasn't shocked there were no Lucha workers in the poll, and I can't imagine anyone believing that's a sign that the style has produced no serious contenders (or that the style lacks any "workrate" candidates)

[cm funk]

It was the usual Meltzer suspects. Half the names were puro guys. I'd be more surprised at Funk not being on it than Lawler. But Dave does these polls for his own amusement, and this was his athletic workrate "Meltzer faves" list. He probably likes Terry more for his promos and his passion for the business more than he does his ring work. Same for Lawler.

 

Were Randy Savage and Rey Mysterio even on it?

 

I only glanced at the poll the day it was put up, what were the final results? When I saw it it was Flair, Bret, Michaels 1-2-3

[Jmare007]

RE: Bryan's merch

 

Going for that Che Guevara feel. I think it's an improvement at least.

[evilclown]

I know something about message board trolls. You guys are engaging with one on Lawler here. Cut bait.

[Phil Schneider]

Possible Gancarski socko?

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Damn, those Bryan shirts are awful.

[shakla]

RE: Bryan's merch

 

Going for that Che Guevara feel. I think it's an improvement at least.

 

Certainly an improvement, but the hurdle was not that high, of course. Not only is the Bryan motif inspired by Che, but isn't this also an homage of the Obey shirts with Andre?