Dave Meltzer stuff

[Loss]

Yeah, I don't understand that criticism, because it forgets one of the most basic tenets of wrestling, which is that the wrestling promotion should be the puppeteer, not the fans. Of course, they co-opted it and made it work for them. That's their job.

[goodhelmet]

You know, I enjoyed the RAW segment but I don't disagree with Martin's overall statement. When WWE decides to get behind a "movement" or put its weight behind something different or cool, it tends to not be different or cool within a short time.

[Loss]

Also, Dave forgetting what he said before on the radio show this morning/last night:

 

"Changing the main event wasn't a surprise. It's been obvious since the Elimination Chamber that's what they would do."

[KrisZ]

You know, I enjoyed the RAW segment but I don't disagree with Martin's overall statement. When WWE decides to get behind a "movement" or put its weight behind something different or cool, it tends to not be different or cool within a short time.

 

That happens in every form of life.....you should've seen all the people whining on Twitter how SXSW last weekend was taken over by corporations.

[goodhelmet]

That doesn't change the fact that it becomes less cool.

[KrisZ]

I agree but every cultural "movement" eventually gets co-opted and it's something that will never change because when there is money to be made it's time to cash in.

[sek69]

Also, Dave forgetting what he said before on the radio show this morning/last night:

 

"Changing the main event wasn't a surprise. It's been obvious since the Elimination Chamber that's what they would do."

 

 

To be fair, for a while now Bryan would be asking him if it's going to be a three way for a while now (especially since Batista turned heel again). Dave would only give his "they could do that" or "it's a possible" in that cheshire cat voice he tends to get when he knows something has a good chance of happening but for whatever reason can't say it.

[Loss]

I was pretty sure he flat out said after the Chamber that they weren't changing the main event.

[goodhelmet]

It may be a case that Meltzer used to have the best sources in the world... now he doesn't. He has built up years of goodwill so he can get away with writing bios and analyzing the "health" of the business but the creative part has been hit or miss for awhile now.

[KrisZ]

One of the main reasons why Mike has taken the lead over Dave in WWE news is you look at who has been working for WWE lately and it features guys who worked a lot in Northeast indies which Mike would attend those shows and knew those guys personally.

 

Dave used to go to a lot of shows back in the day and that's one of the reasons why he had such great sources now he hardly ever goes so his connections to the scene are mostly out of the business.

[jdw]

 

You know, I enjoyed the RAW segment but I don't disagree with Martin's overall statement. When WWE decides to get behind a "movement" or put its weight behind something different or cool, it tends to not be different or cool within a short time.

 

That happens in every form of life.....you should've seen all the people whining on Twitter how SXSW last weekend was taken over by corporations.

 

 

They said that last year as well... and the year before... and...

 

Well just an example of how this is old:

 

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/03/16/sxsw-2011-going-corporate-selling-out

 

* * * * *

 

On the question of Bryan and the WWE co-opting it, I see both points:

 

It's smart for the WWE to try to tap into something that the fans are getting off on. That what we all said they should be doing with Bryan: he's over with a chunk of the fan base, and it's the WWE's job to figure out how to capitalize on and enhance that.

 

On the flip side, the WWE does have a long track record of taking something that is kinda-sorta organic and then over playing it / being clumsy in how they deal with it.

 

We can all recall the Shawn Face Push To The Top in 1996. Shawn was over as a face going back to the prior year when he turned to help his buddy Diesel The Champ. When it came time to push him to the next level to the top, Vince's first impulse was to turn him into a baby kissing babyface. Pehaps not quite literally, but you get the point. The HBK Face that had been doing just fine got kind of unnatural / uncommfortable.

 

Thing tend to work better for the WWF/WWE when they don't try to over step on it. Razor became a Face because the fans thought he was Cool even when he was a Heel. Dittos Jake. Neither became a traditional Face when they turned: for the most part they kept playing the same character, though adjusted their work in the ring to play face a bit more, and adjusted their interplay with the fans a bit. Stone Cold initially got over in the same way: the sumbitch was cool.

 

I think Martin has a point that the Plants might be a bit of an overplay. If the crowd is already going nuts for Bryan, does the WWE really need to go the Plant route? It's nice and all that the WWE gives their blessing and support to Bryan-Love, but...

 

It's a bit heavy handed.

 

Than again, pro wrestling is usually heavy handed.

[rovert]

One of the main reasons why Mike has taken the lead over Dave in WWE news is you look at who has been working for WWE lately and it features guys who worked a lot in Northeast indies which Mike would attend those shows and knew those guys personally.

 

Dave used to go to a lot of shows back in the day and that's one of the reasons why he had such great sources now he hardly ever goes so his connections to the scene are mostly out of the business.

 

There's a lot of truth in what you say, Kris. But going on the year 2014 alone Mike has gone through quite the dry spell when it comes to scoops and as incorrect as incorrect came be about Hogan being at the Network launch deal.

[goodhelmet]

EDIT: Responding to jdw

 

That's it! With Punk, it wasn't enough to have a pipebomb. Then they started advertising pipebombs... coming up next!!!

With this movement, once the fans catch on that the Fed is planting catering members and using DB to shill stuff they don't want, this dies too.

 

The issue is they don't need to in order to cash in.

[jdw]

I'm in the middle because I don't know if it will die.

 

I'm sure we can find stuff they were heavy handed about that the fans never really got onto (say Batista's first match push towards the world title vs Trip).

 

But...

 

Rocky's 1st Babyface IC Push = Heavy Handed = Bombed (Die Rocky Die!)

Rock's 1st Heel Push with NOD = "felt" Organic = Got Over Quite Well

Rock's Increased Heel Push = certainly Heavy Handed but "felt' like a next level of NOD Push so semi-organic = Got Over Huge

 

I'm not sold that the middle one "just happened" and the WWF was as clueless about it as they were the initial Stone Cold push. But it really "felt" mush more organic in WWF World than the first. Simmons was the front man of the NOD, and perhaps Rock breaking out as a star behind that front man helped make it feel organic, if that makes sense.

 

Of course the third was was full on WWF push to the moon heavy handed if we were to go back and chart it. Mr. McMahon helped him. Stone Cold got screwed over. They suddenly found they had major magic in Face Foley opposite Rock, and then from Eric being a dick about Foley winning the title on Raw. We're all jaded bastards and could see the wheels grinding away if we re-watched 1998-99 now... but we also would probably also see how well the various steps were done, and how the crowd "come along" rather than "being led", to a degree that the crowd probably thought they were leading the dance in some ways.

 

* * * * *

 

I'm not sure they needed to be so obviously heavy handed with Bryan to use Plants. There were enuogh Bryan Fans in the building, and WWE Production should have been able to get close up and group shots of those fans. That's great in the sense that they go up on the TitanTron, get their 15 minutes of Fame, get other Bryan Fans in the building more active tying to get on camera, which makes Bryan Fans at the next Raw taping all fired up to get on the camera as well.

 

*That* is manipulating the fans without them really knowing they're being manipulated.

 

On the other hand, this is pro wrestling. It's always been pretty heavy handed. There's stuff that I roll my eyes at as being too obviously stupid/goofy/fakey-fake, but the fans base buys it. Sometimes they don't mind getting hit over the head.

 

So...

 

I see both your side and Bix's. It's a positive that the WWE is trying to tap into Bryan Fandom that's going on at the moment, that they recognize it and are trying to get some milage out of it. Was that the perfect way to support it? Don't know. Not sure how it will play.

[Loss]

We don't know that they were plants. I was under the impression that they randomly selected fans who had already purchased tickets.

[goodhelmet]

Foley on his Twitter said that the red haired girl (Big Lita) was from catering. If you watched the post-show when they were interviewing the Movement, those were WWE employees all the way.

[El-P]

The one thing I agree with Martin is that I did notice the crowd wasn't chanting that loud once the plants started occupying the ring. Wait & see I guess.

[KrisZ]

That angle was all the rave at my job today people were buzzing about all the people around the ring and how great everyone was in that segment. They had never seen anything like that before.

 

Speaking of that, wrestling has always been a topic at my job among a few of us but the last month or so the number of people talking about it has grown quite a bit....

[pantherwagner]

I checked out that Raw segment. It looked too staged and unauthentic, especially when as others have said the real fans in the building could have given a similar reaction. When Bryan tried to position himself on the main even the reaction wasn't thunderous like you'd have expected. But in the end it doesn't matter as "the fans finally get what they want" and HHH/Steph can claim that it was all a part of their master plan.

[Jmare007]

huh? Him demanding to be added to the title match was what got the biggest reaction from the crowd in that segment. Even bigger than HHH accepting their match at Mania. There was also a weird moment when the fans started a big "Daniel Bryan" chant but the audio was weird.

 

 

The highjack stuff started lame and corny but ended up being great. Thing is, that should stop now that Bryan got what he wanted. If they keep pushing this "leader of a movement" thing, I think there's gonna be some backlash after Wrestlemania weekend.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Todd Martin stinks. He's a zero. That segment fucking ruled.

"Wah, they were plants" , who gives a shit? The Undertaker's Druids didn't actually build Stonehenge , who fucking cares?

[Dylan Waco]

 

One of the main reasons why Mike has taken the lead over Dave in WWE news is you look at who has been working for WWE lately and it features guys who worked a lot in Northeast indies which Mike would attend those shows and knew those guys personally.

 

Dave used to go to a lot of shows back in the day and that's one of the reasons why he had such great sources now he hardly ever goes so his connections to the scene are mostly out of the business.

 

There's a lot of truth in what you say, Kris. But going on the year 2014 alone Mike has gone through quite the dry spell when it comes to scoops and as incorrect as incorrect came be about Hogan being at the Network launch deal.

 

 

Hogan was originally supposed to be at the Network launch and I was told that people in the company were told to leak his presence.

 

Not that I am the most well connected person on Earth, but in this day and age it's shockingly easy for a long time fan to get some degree of scoopz, including stuff that wasn't reported by any of the main sites.

[Dylan Waco]

I checked out that Raw segment. It looked too staged and unauthentic, especially when as others have said the real fans in the building could have given a similar reaction. When Bryan tried to position himself on the main even the reaction wasn't thunderous like you'd have expected. But in the end it doesn't matter as "the fans finally get what they want" and HHH/Steph can claim that it was all a part of their master plan.

 

I generally agree with this.

 

I actually hated the angle in real time and was somewhat surprised to see that people who I agree with nine out of ten times loved it. The only things I really liked about it were Steph's performance, and the end result (and even there I don't have near the love for that most do because I hate triple threats, and it's to the point where nothing on the announced card looks all that interesting to me). Looking back I can see why others liked it, but to me it felt like the most stage managed version of a "we are taking over" wrestling angle I've ever seen.

[Bix]

 

 

One of the main reasons why Mike has taken the lead over Dave in WWE news is you look at who has been working for WWE lately and it features guys who worked a lot in Northeast indies which Mike would attend those shows and knew those guys personally.

 

Dave used to go to a lot of shows back in the day and that's one of the reasons why he had such great sources now he hardly ever goes so his connections to the scene are mostly out of the business.

 

There's a lot of truth in what you say, Kris. But going on the year 2014 alone Mike has gone through quite the dry spell when it comes to scoops and as incorrect as incorrect came be about Hogan being at the Network launch deal.

Hogan was originally supposed to be at the Network launch and I was told that people in the company were told to leak his presence.

 

Not that I am the most well connected person on Earth, but in this day and age it's shockingly easy for a long time fan to get some degree of scoopz, including stuff that wasn't reported by any of the main sites.

It wasn't just that he reported it, it was that he reported Hogan was actually seen there twice. After the fact the explanation was that a guy who looked very similar to Hogan was there which...I mean, I don't think he'd make something like that up, but it still sounds ridiculous even if it's the 100% truth.

[Dylan Waco]

Was Johnson there?

 

I had two other people tell me Hogan was seen in the building, neither of whom were there.