Dave Meltzer stuff

[NintendoLogic]

I tried to watch the WK match and turned it off after about ten minutes. I actually like Okada a lot, so Omega pretty much has to be the worst wrestler on Earth to make me hate an Okada match that much.

 

Anyway, I went to renew my subscription this morning, and I was a bit puzzled to see that one of the options is $32.99 for three months. A single month is $10.99, so it's actually more expensive than signing up for a monthly subscription and cancelling after three months, albeit only by two cents.

[concrete1992]

For a good number of years in the 00s, a good number of athletes who weren't fans that might have gone into wrestling previously went into MMA?

Yes. This is always going to be the talking point. I think it holds up. I know you can only take the word of so many wrestlers when they say this exact thing "If MMA was popular when I was around I would have done that instead" but still, think there is a kernel of truth to it.

[sek69]

I don't doubt there's a lot of wrestlers who would have *tried* MMA had it been an option for them, but I would expect the vast majority still would have ended up in pro wrestling anyway. I don't think anyone other than a Kurt Angle type would have had much success at it.

[NintendoLogic]

Jack Brisco once said that he still would have gone into pro wrestling even if MMA had been around because he didn't like getting hit in the face.

[Strummer]

seen a lot of people online getting on Dave for his reporting on the mania card this week. That he's being worked, just speculating, etc. No problem with that but keep in mind three years ago for WM 30 when he released the planned line up people were saying the same exact things (basically he was being worked by WWE) and he turned out to be exactly right

[sek69]

Randos on Twitter seem so confident they know more about the wrestling business than the guy who's spent decades talking to people inside the company.

[KawadaSmile]

https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/820028434730520576

 

Meltzer's star ratings make less sense with each tweet, I feel.

[stro]

I don't doubt there's a lot of wrestlers who would have *tried* MMA had it been an option for them, but I would expect the vast majority still would have ended up in pro wrestling anyway. I don't think anyone other than a Kurt Angle type would have had much success at it.

 

I think plenty of dudes would have had enough success at it in the late 90s-mid 2000s before guys starting getting well rounded and highly skilled at multiple things. Up until the big explosion from TUF, just being a better athlete was enough for a lot of guys. And if they wanted to work in Japan, they could have made some good coin taking dives anyway. A big dude with amateur wrestling background and some cardio could go a long way in MMA back then.

[sek69]

https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/820028434730520576

 

Meltzer's star ratings make less sense with each tweet, I feel.

 

 

Watching matches for the sole purpose of assigning the proper fractional amount of flakes never made much sense IMO.

[Jimmy James]

I feel like an idiot for caring about someone's subjective ratings but something about him doing a mea culpa for OVER-rating WWE matches makes me flip out

[Microstatistics]

https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/status/820028434730520576

 

Meltzer's star ratings make less sense with each tweet, I feel.

 

His star rating system is inherently bizarre and perplexing. He has mentioned that a **** match that happened in WWE would be a ***1/4 match in NJPW. By that logic a ***1/2 NJPW match is better than a **** WWE match. Which means the number of stars he gives out is actually not even proportional to the quality of the match.

[Jimmy James]

This is more a F4W thing than a Dave thing, but I'd really like to give a shout out to the guy on the F4W awards article who voted Cesaro as most underrated and Sheamus as most overrated. Cesaro and Sheamus are pushed at the exact same level and were in a program for most of the year. The only way giving two people pushed at the exact same level the "most overpushed" and "most underpushed" awards makes any kind of sense are if you think Cesaro is like, Misawa-level amazing and Sheamus is Van Hammer-level bad. Just completely absurd shit.

 

 

I guess this is what happens when you have a shitload of great matches in the second half of the year with Cesaro and the only praise you get from Dave is "Sheamus was in position for Cesaro"

[stro]

Sheamus is certainly a better performer than Cesaro, far more comfortable showing any kind of character in and out of the ring, far more comfortable on promos, far better at selling, and far better at having his matches make sense. I can understand people thinking Cesaro is "better" because he has some neat high spots and good hot tags, but I think fairly objectively one can say Sheamus is a better pro wrestler than Cesaro, even if Cesaro entertains you more.

 

But yes, the idea that one could be the most underrated and the other the most overrated when they've been together in the same angle for 7 months as opponents and as a team is silly as fuck.

[Jimmy James]

I like Cesaro but I mostly think he's being used where he should. Maybe pushed a bit higher to the point where he gets the odd PPV main event, but the idea that he should be #1 babyface kinda reminds me of.... were there smart fans in 1996 who thought WCW should push Dean Malenko to the moon?

[Grimmas]

I like Cesaro but I mostly think he's being used where he should. Maybe pushed a bit higher to the point where he gets the odd PPV main event, but the idea that he should be #1 babyface kinda reminds me of.... were there smart fans in 1996 who thought WCW should push Dean Malenko to the moon?

There was a time it would had made sense, but they are past that now.

 

He was getting super over as a babyface having long matches with Cena. That would had been the time.

[stro]

I like Cesaro but I mostly think he's being used where he should. Maybe pushed a bit higher to the point where he gets the odd PPV main event, but the idea that he should be #1 babyface kinda reminds me of.... were there smart fans in 1996 who thought WCW should push Dean Malenko to the moon?

 

There is definitely a portion of the internet crowd that thinks anyone and everyone with talent should be in the main event, and if they're not, their career has been totally wasted. Even at Cesaro's peak around WM 30, he could have maybe headlined a PPV or two, but he clearly wasn't a long term headliner type. Not everyone is made to be a main eventer, and even some people that are can't be because the shows need jobbers, openers, and mid carders just as much as main eventers.

[Loss]

Could Cesaro be used how Chris Jericho was used in the first half of the 2000s? Occasional flirtations with the main event, but mostly the guy at the top of the bottom who went where he was needed.

[stro]

I think he probably could have, for a bit. Not long term. His awkwardness and poor promos would make it hard to step up every few months and build a PPV around. He's best served in the mid card where he can just have matches and not have to worry about being engaging outside of the ring. I heard someone describe Cesaro as a tourist once, and that seems like an extremely accurate description to me.

 

He's now not only damaged goods from booking, but also exposed in the ring as just a spot guy, and outside of the ring as completely dropping the ball anytime he was given the chance to cut a promo or show character.

[rzombie1988]

I think Cesaro could have been a main eventer. He was one of the most over faces on the indies with the "HEY" stuff, he has the height and is one of the best wrestlers on the planet. Would things have really been that different if he had taken Sheamus' spot?

 

He's damaged though now and even though I was his biggest fan, I gave up all hope.

 

I think anyone could be a superstar if WWE booked them correctly and put enough energy behind them though.

[Jimmy James]

The problem I see with pushing Cesaro really hard to main eventer status is that I don't see what he brings to the table outside of very good matches. That sounds like a silly criticism, but can you really see him pulling off the main event angles that WWE likes? What do you do with him after he has his big moment and wins the title? The guy can't talk, and having a good look isn't the same as being good at character work.

 

Mid-to-high card guy who puts on very good matches is right where he should be, I think, and I love the guy.

[shakla]

If Cesaro wins his 4th straight WON Most Underrated award this year, just get rid of the category. He's been doing fine in the last year, works most PPVs, doesn't get jobber intros, etc.

[rzombie1988]

The problem I see with pushing Cesaro really hard to main eventer status is that I don't see what he brings to the table outside of very good matches. That sounds like a silly criticism, but can you really see him pulling off the main event angles that WWE likes? What do you do with him after he has his big moment and wins the title? The guy can't talk, and having a good look isn't the same as being good at character work.

 

Mid-to-high card guy who puts on very good matches is right where he should be, I think, and I love the guy.

What chance has he gotten to really do anything else but have good matches though? He never gets promo time or vignettes.

 

I think he's okay on the mic.

[BrianB]

The problem I see with pushing Cesaro really hard to main eventer status is that I don't see what he brings to the table outside of very good matches. That sounds like a silly criticism, but can you really see him pulling off the main event angles that WWE likes? What do you do with him after he has his big moment and wins the title? The guy can't talk, and having a good look isn't the same as being good at character work.

 

Mid-to-high card guy who puts on very good matches is right where he should be, I think, and I love the guy.

 

I agree with this. Cesaro has also been stuck in the midcard for years, which matters to casual fans when they think about someone as a viable main eventer. But I do have some sympathy for Cesaro's hardcore fans because Roman Reigns can't promo or talk well, and he's been pushed very hard. Maybe Cesaro would have done just as well or better years back? We'll never know. It's possible that a heel Roman Reigns will click, but it's all conjecture and speculation.

[stro]

Roman is a perfectly fine promo guy as long as he isn't given those weird fairy tale promos to recite. Cesaro is bad at promos of any kind, and has never been able to convey character beyond "kind of goofy aloof guy who wrestles and smiles" for his entire career. In fact, the most character he's ever shown is saying HEY after every few moves.

[BrianB]

Roman is a perfectly fine promo guy as long as he isn't given those weird fairy tale promos to recite. Cesaro is bad at promos of any kind, and has never been able to convey character beyond "kind of goofy aloof guy who wrestles and smiles" for his entire career. In fact, the most character he's ever shown is saying HEY after every few moves.

 

Perfectly fine is a stretch. Roman is fine when he talks hardly at all or he's playing a tweener. He's also not as terrible as he was when he first got that big megapush, but he's had years of practice now and it's clear he's not a strong main-event level talker.