Dave Meltzer stuff

[rzombie1988]

 

Going ahead of the curve would likely be working closer to an MMA/K-1 or older territory style of wrestling like NXT does,

 

Working closer to MMA was done before MMA even existed. It was called "shoot-style". It'd been dead for almost 20 years because the real thing came up.

 

NXT is mostly based on Evil Indy Darlings^tm showing up one after the other to finally get their WWE stints (and good for them). And the booking is cosplaying an old territory, of sorts, which can be fun be certainly is not "ahead of the curve" either.

 

Damn those liberal millennial pro-wresting fans...

 

(and yes, in the last two years, I've seen two of the best matches I've ever watched in my almost 30 years of pro-wrestling : one was Naito vs Omega in the G1 Climax last year, the other one was THE Tully vs Magnum I Quit cage match)

 

UFC doesn't make me excited quite like K-1 and PRIDE did. K-1's still really good at least, but they don't really have the personalities. I agree that peak PRIDE/K-1 did wrestling better than wrestling did. I've never been able to get behind UFC guys except for the obvious ones like Silva or Rhonda.

 

I think if you haven't done something for so long it starts to become new again. It's been so long since we've seen a territory approach aside from NXT. We been doing Japanese tributes for 15 years now and it's stale. I appreciate the attempts at increasing workrate, but not at the cost of heel/face dynamics, scrapping personalities/characters, long term storylines and people getting hurt. I've even gone as far to say that match quality doesn't even matter that match in reality.

 

I also do think liberalizing pro wrestling is a good way to put it. People are calling for transgenders in wrestling. They want to see women facing men. Anyone can be a wrestler now instead of only a select group of people being let in. Critiquing anything about a wrestlers appearance is starting to be now a no no. WWE went PG and anti-bullying. People everyday are calling for a more "diverse" group of wrestlers, simply for the fact that they don't have enough of (insert race here) in wrestling or enough (insert race here) champions. More and more wrestlers are starting to be publicly shamed(JBL, Sexy Star, Sasha Banks etc) and we're seeing some attempts at blackballing. The MSM is starting to accept wrestling - GLOW on Netflix, Wrestling episodes are starting to become a TV trope, WWE getting covered by ESPN, Sports Illustrated loving Omega and places like Buzzfeed giving their 2 cents on the Sexy Star situation. There's some correlations to be made there.

[El-P]

I also do think liberalizing pro wrestling is a good way to put it. People are calling for transgenders in wrestling. They want to see women facing men. Anyone can be a wrestler now instead of only a select group of people being let in. Critiquing anything about a wrestlers appearance is starting to be now a no no. WWE went PG and anti-bullying. People everyday are calling for a more "diverse" group of wrestlers, simply for the fact that they don't have enough of (insert race here) in wrestling or enough (insert race here) champions. More and more wrestlers are starting to be publicly shamed(JBL, now Sexy Star, etc) and we're seeing some attempts at blackballing. The MSM is starting to accept wrestling - GLOW on Netflix, Wrestling episodes are starting to become a TV trope, WWE getting covered by ESPN, Sports Illustrated loving Omega and places like Buzzfeed giving their 2 cents on the Sexy Star situation. There's some correlations to be made there.

 

 

And that's... bad ? Honest question here. All this seems absolutely positive to me. Pro-wrestling will never be what it was before, for better and worse. It evolves. And although some of the evolution I'm not always positive about (of course), all of this I'm perfectly happy with.

 

(race doesn't exist BTW, but I get what you mean by it)

[rzombie1988]

 

I also do think liberalizing pro wrestling is a good way to put it. People are calling for transgenders in wrestling. They want to see women facing men. Anyone can be a wrestler now instead of only a select group of people being let in. Critiquing anything about a wrestlers appearance is starting to be now a no no. WWE went PG and anti-bullying. People everyday are calling for a more "diverse" group of wrestlers, simply for the fact that they don't have enough of (insert race here) in wrestling or enough (insert race here) champions. More and more wrestlers are starting to be publicly shamed(JBL, now Sexy Star, etc) and we're seeing some attempts at blackballing. The MSM is starting to accept wrestling - GLOW on Netflix, Wrestling episodes are starting to become a TV trope, WWE getting covered by ESPN, Sports Illustrated loving Omega and places like Buzzfeed giving their 2 cents on the Sexy Star situation. There's some correlations to be made there.

 

 

And that's... bad ? Honest question here. All this seems absolutely positive to me. Pro-wrestling will never be what it was before, for better and worse. It evolves. And although some of the evolution I'm not always positive about (of course), all of this I'm perfectly happy with.

 

Some things are bad. If every wrestler who ever shot on someone or did something stupid in their personal life was blackballed, we'd have very few wrestlers left. No one liked WWE going PG except Mattel. I prefer wrestling being more restrictive about who gets let in. I don't want to see women vs men because it's not believable and due to the weight/size differences it could lead to more injuries(I don't care who you are, if you are 150lbs and try to catch a 250lb person, both of you get hurt). The transgender thing will never work in wrestling because it will create way too much drama and half the audience or more won't want to see it. Online bullying is never good, even if someone did something bad.

[Mad Dog]

 

 

Going ahead of the curve would likely be working closer to an MMA/K-1 or older territory style of wrestling like NXT does,

Working closer to MMA was done before MMA even existed. It was called "shoot-style". It'd been dead for almost 20 years because the real thing came up.

 

NXT is mostly based on Evil Indy Darlings^tm showing up one after the other to finally get their WWE stints (and good for them). And the booking is cosplaying an old territory, of sorts, which can be fun be certainly is not "ahead of the curve" either.

 

Damn those liberal millennial pro-wresting fans...

 

(and yes, in the last two years, I've seen two of the best matches I've ever watched in my almost 30 years of pro-wrestling : one was Naito vs Omega in the G1 Climax last year, the other one was THE Tully vs Magnum I Quit cage match)

RoH tried the MMA thing with Richards and Edwards and literally everyone hated it.

[rzombie1988]

 

 

Going ahead of the curve would likely be working closer to an MMA/K-1 or older territory style of wrestling like NXT does,

Working closer to MMA was done before MMA even existed. It was called "shoot-style". It'd been dead for almost 20 years because the real thing came up.

 

NXT is mostly based on Evil Indy Darlings^tm showing up one after the other to finally get their WWE stints (and good for them). And the booking is cosplaying an old territory, of sorts, which can be fun be certainly is not "ahead of the curve" either.

 

Damn those liberal millennial pro-wresting fans...

 

(and yes, in the last two years, I've seen two of the best matches I've ever watched in my almost 30 years of pro-wrestling : one was Naito vs Omega in the G1 Climax last year, the other one was THE Tully vs Magnum I Quit cage match)

RoH tried the MMA thing with Richards and Edwards and literally everyone hated it.

 

It's Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards. I wouldn't like them if they were doing anything. Now Kurt Angle and Samoa Joe, I got into that.

[Mad Dog]

Wrestling also is seeing it's current acceptance because it got attached to the geek culture boom. So you're going to have to deal with the changes because you are drawing in a different fanbase than you were 10-15 years ago.

[El-P]

Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe in TNA was about as close as "MMA" as Tito Santana vs Greg Valentine. (which is actually a compliment, but the whole "MMA" deal in pro-wrestling has to go because it always comes back to the MMA gimmick being "this is real while the other shit is fake" break-the-fourth-wall nonsense)

[rzombie1988]

Kurt Angle vs Samoa Joe in TNA was about as close as "MMA" as Tito Santana vs Greg Valentine. (which is actually a compliment, but the whole "MMA" deal in pro-wrestling has to go because it always comes back to the MMA gimmick being "this is real while the other shit is fake" break-the-fourth-wall nonsense)

I'm just making a comparison. They aren't no Andrei Kopolov or Nikolai Zouev.

[rzombie1988]

Wrestling also is seeing it's current acceptance because it got attached to the geek culture boom. So you're going to have to deal with the changes because you are drawing in a different fanbase than you were 10-15 years ago.

I think the fad will wear off in time. And 400 fans in the middle of LA(2nd biggest city in the US) 3-6 times a year really isn't anything special when the WNBA draws 7,000 a game there. In 1983, over 10 promotions just in the US drew 10,000 fans. Now maybe 4 in the world can do it.

[Mad Dog]

That's because they run a venue that only holds 400 people. PWG has a very conservative business model. They run the same venue and sell their DVDs and blu-rays. They could easily sell out bigger venues in certain markets.

[rzombie1988]

That's because they run a venue that only holds 400 people. PWG has a very conservative business model. They run the same venue and sell their DVDs and blu-rays. They could easily sell out bigger venues in certain markets.

Maybe, maybe not. PWG would like us to think they can and many people are willing to buy that story, that's for sure. Shire drew triple that in LA/SF when his territory was closing and that wasn't even enough to be worthwhile back then with a lot less people.

 

I think not being able to sell out 400 seats in LA is more impressive than being able to.

[Mad Dog]

I'm not even sure what you're getting at. They have always stuck to their plan even when they weren't hot.

[rzombie1988]

I'm not even sure what you're getting at. They have always stuck to their plan even when they weren't hot.

I don't think drawing 400 people in LA is impressive. I think not being able to draw 400 people in LA is impressive, because it's such a massive place that is near other top 50 markets. In the middle of Pennsylvania, we can draw 400 people to a show no problem.

 

People like Dave really push how amazing it is that PWG can sell out 400 seats, but will completely ignore than the WNBA can draw 7,000 in LA, and that is the opposite of hot.

[Rah]

PWG in a different building just wouldn't feel like PWG. Their armory is part of the charm. Also I'm not sure I've ever seen people chalk up PWG drawing 400 people as impressive. It's never been the number of people, but the people it draws.

[rzombie1988]

PWG in a different building just wouldn't feel like PWG. Their armory is part of the charm. Also I'm not sure I've ever seen people chalk up PWG drawing 400 people as impressive. It's never been the number of people, but the people it draws.

There's no lack of celebs in LA. There's tens of thousands and you know if a celeb wants to come, PWG's gonna bend over backwards to get them in. Everyone in LA sees celebs at some point. Now there's a lack of celebs in the middle of PA here or in Alabama and drawing celebs in those places would be impressive.

[Sean Liska]

I know he deals with a lot of trolls but if Dave could ever comprehend the idea that people have different tastes when it comes to entertainment, that would be a nice moment. Someone said Will Ospreay is one of the best storytellers in the world and Dave on Twitter replies - "Don't say that, all the people who still think the Earth is flat have their religion short-circuited by such a statement.". Someone complains about overt choreography in wrestling and he says - "Every generation says that about everything new. Nothing wrong with it. In time, you'll see it over and over again." To me it comes back to the double standard of him giving Hogan-Andre negative stars while they worked a perfect match for the stadium and fans there.

 

Damn it I said I wasn't going to let myself be negative on Dave after subscribing for 25 years and loving the guy but he is on a tear on Twitter today.

[Bix]

Dave's primary job isn't to watch everything. It's to watch what's either hot or catching on. He reports on business first and foremost. He has commented on Trevor Lee and Io Shirai and modern All Japan and other stuff in a way that makes me think he watches way more than he talks about. Still, there are only so many hours in a day, and how can we ask this guy to spend even more time on wrestling than he already does?

 

Well, specific to Evolve, it's deeper than that:

 

From WON coverage, Dave's social media and audio, etc, you'd barely know the promotion existed, which is weird if just because of the WWE deal (and Gabe now being a consultant in NXT). Once, someone on Twitter asked Dave why he doesn't review Evolve shows and he gave a "reading is your friend, I did in the new issue" reply when he didn't review the latest shows, he just gave the results. Online and in the WON, he gave the attendance for the last NYC show as 150-200ish, when literally everyone else said it was about 450-600, which is a big difference. "Dave Meltzer doesn't watch Evolve" is now enough of a thing that Ethan Page joked about it with ACH on their show on FloSlam. There are a bunch of Wrestling Twitter conspiracy theories about it and I don't really buy any of them, but I get why people find it weird and want an explanation. Doesn't help that Dave doesn't reply when asked if he watches Evolve, or about other Evolve-related stuff, on top of the perception that he's not covering various issues within ROH.

[rzombie1988]

To me it comes back to the double standard of him giving Hogan-Andre negative stars while they worked a perfect match for the stadium and fans there.

 

 

Andre/Hogan was actually GOOD. That's the worst part. The match made sense. Hogan tries to slam Andre and hurts his back. So Andre works the back before Hogan finally slams him to win. Real simple stuff.

[El-P]

 

To me it comes back to the double standard of him giving Hogan-Andre negative stars while they worked a perfect match for the stadium and fans there.

 

 

Andre/Hogan was actually GOOD. That's the worst part. The match made sense. Hogan tries to slam Andre and hurts his back. So Andre works the back before Hogan finally slams him to win. Real simple stuff.

 

 

...which mostly looked like crap too because Andre really couldn't do much that looked any good. Not to mention Hogan "finally slamming Andre" after he couldn't do it the first time and had his back worked the entire time doesn't make one lick of sense if you really think about it. People are all up in arms with "selling" and "storytelling" that "make sense", but when you simply think two secs about stuff like this, it actually make no sense whatsoever. It "works", but it doesn't look good and it's kinda stupid, really, like any "hulking up" sequence is.

[FMKK]

 

 

To me it comes back to the double standard of him giving Hogan-Andre negative stars while they worked a perfect match for the stadium and fans there.

 

 

Andre/Hogan was actually GOOD. That's the worst part. The match made sense. Hogan tries to slam Andre and hurts his back. So Andre works the back before Hogan finally slams him to win. Real simple stuff.

 

 

...which mostly looked like crap too because Andre really couldn't do much that looked any good. Not to mention Hogan "finally slamming Andre" after he couldn't do it the first time and had his back worked the entire time doesn't make one lick of sense if you really think about it. People are all up in arms with "selling" and "storytelling" that "make sense", but when you simply think two secs about stuff like this, it actually make no sense whatsoever. It "works", but it doesn't look good and it's kinda stupid, really, like any "hulking up" sequence is.

 

 

Hogan persevering through the pain to finally pick up the giant in the crunch moment of a big championship match is a lot less egregious to me than kicking out of finishers at one or taking second rope head drops and not selling it two minutes later.

[El-P]

Hogan persevering through the pain to finally pick up the giant in the crunch moment of a big championship match is a lot less egregious to me than kicking out of finishers at one or taking second rope head drops and not selling it two minutes later.

 

You won't get an argument about that from me. I'd rather re-watch Andre vs Hogan than your usual self-conscious 35 mn Mania Epic^tm with finisher kickouts orgy.

[sek69]

 

Dave's primary job isn't to watch everything. It's to watch what's either hot or catching on. He reports on business first and foremost. He has commented on Trevor Lee and Io Shirai and modern All Japan and other stuff in a way that makes me think he watches way more than he talks about. Still, there are only so many hours in a day, and how can we ask this guy to spend even more time on wrestling than he already does?

 

Well, specific to Evolve, it's deeper than that:

 

From WON coverage, Dave's social media and audio, etc, you'd barely know the promotion existed, which is weird if just because of the WWE deal (and Gabe now being a consultant in NXT). Once, someone on Twitter asked Dave why he doesn't review Evolve shows and he gave a "reading is your friend, I did in the new issue" reply when he didn't review the latest shows, he just gave the results. Online and in the WON, he gave the attendance for the last NYC show as 150-200ish, when literally everyone else said it was about 450-600, which is a big difference. "Dave Meltzer doesn't watch Evolve" is now enough of a thing that Ethan Page joked about it with ACH on their show on FloSlam. There are a bunch of Wrestling Twitter conspiracy theories about it and I don't really buy any of them, but I get why people find it weird and want an explanation. Doesn't help that Dave doesn't reply when asked if he watches Evolve, or about other Evolve-related stuff, on top of the perception that he's not covering various issues within ROH.

 

 

 

The ROH stuff was weird, there was a time there was clearly some shit going on with people unhappy and/or leaving and he seemed to go out of his way to not mention it past the most basic "this is a thing that happened and I won't say more about it".

[Beast]

In Dave's Heenan bio, he twice says he managed Pat Patterson. I may be way off here, but that's not correct, right?

 

He says Heenan managed Stevens & Patterson in AWA after Heenan returned after Georgia, but Patterson was in WWF that entire time, I think.

 

And then he says Heenan listed his top 5 workers managed as Flair, Stevens, Hennig, Patterson, Bockwinkel, but when Bockwinkel passed that story was told with Bockwinkel as #4 and no Patterson.

[Al]

Patterson did some spots for the AWA in the early '80s, last one in January of '83.

[Beast]

Oh OK, thanks for the info.

 

So weird to think of a time when a star like Patterson could go back and forth between two major companies with no issue. But I guess this was while Vince Sr. was still overseeing the WWF?