Dave Meltzer stuff

[Cap]

For sure, this has been a long and complex process and that story really does encapsulate much of that process, perhaps one of its its most important and formative phases.

[Eduardo]

 

I have generally thought responses to Dave's ratings are overblown, a symptom of a reactionary wrestling culture as much as a response to a real and present issue. However, and this isn't as much a changing opinion as much as me believing the that landscape has transformed into something else, I do think there is something to the notion that this Meltzerian standard has started to animate certain pockets of wrestling. Certainly NJPW rides that wave with some success. Without the official media infrastructure in the U.S. of say something like the WWE they are - through their alignment with this standard - carving out a place for themselves in the American wrestling conciousness... one they couldn't otherwise carve out.

 

However, I am not sure it is so much a direct (though implicit) response to Meltzer himself as much as it is a response to a swealing of influence of particular types of orientations to wrestling, Meltzer and his stars being the most obvious and discernible manifestation. I almost feel like - from my limited perspective - that at least certain strands of wrestling cater to a particular style,that of the sort of in-a-vacuum, best-experienced-live" wrestling, a style that is often rewarded by Meltzer. I would agree that Meltzer is someone who is oversimplified, caricatured in a way with regard to his responses, but it is percisely the point that his more recent responses seem to have sort of embraced that caricature, one that prefers big action, offense, moves, and wrestling that animates the live crowd and creates an electric atmosphere. However, I am not sure I feel like there is a direct relationship with Meltzer as a singular or even primary catalyst for this as much as it sort of seems like large swaths of wrestling are driven by immediate reaction, hot-take, buzz-generating responses. If wrestling twitter is anything, it is a sea of just that.

 

Let me give an example. I have been watching a lot of Progress lately and I really really like Progress, but Progess is a live-oriented product. They are really good at coherence and booking (imo), but the matches themselves are built around creating an electric atmosphere in the moment, about a sort of cyclical energy between crowd and wrestlers. I was at the NY show; it was absolutely ape-shit insane to feel part of that live (in a good way - for me at least, not to get into that whole mess). I think of Progress as sort of like NJPW in that the matches are more satisfying and impressive in a vacuum. When I just pop on a NJPW match it sometimes can feel like the biggest thing on earth. When I just pop on a progress match it feels like I might be watching the best indy ever sometimes. But if I watch a bunch of NJPW or a bunch of Progress in a row, in context, I start to tire of certain tropes returning in every single match. The matches themselves don't feel as special, even if I still enjoy the wrestling on the whole. Now, that might just be "bad wrestling" to some people and fair. However, that sets a crowd on fire and that is fodder for the hot take culture that internet wrestling has become.

 

Meltzer was, in some ways at least, a hot-take guy before twitter, facebook, and message boards gave everyone the ability to be a hot take person and before streaming shrunk the amount of time one had to provide their hot takes. Again, not to say that he can or should be reduced to hot takes, but the "persona" that has become Meltzer's position in wrestling is mostly defined by those kinds of things. I haven't watched any of the G1 yet and by the time I do no one will give a shit what I have to say about it (table for a second that they might not have anyway). Everything is bang bang bang and if you want to create and maintain the buzz around your company one of the best ways to do that is to get people buzzing on line. Further, one of the best ways to ensure that now is go big with matches and segments and spots that create a sort of visceral reaction. Matches that play into that hot-take, reactionary orientation are the currency of the realm right now. To me, much of the way some wrestlers, particularly those with a keen eye on the internet and how it may affect their career trajectories, are shaping their styles around that is a response to the how the current configuration of media is shaping wrestling far more than it is a response to Meltzer himself or how he has shaped opinions.

 

I kind of think Meltzer is as much a sort of niche figurehead for this trend as much as anything else. Whether he is consciously going with the flow... or wrestling culture as a whole sort of happens to be falling in line a little more with his particular orientations... or he has over the years shaped this to a great degree himself, I don't ultimately know. But, I tend to be skeptical of the latter. I don't mean to take away from his significance; Meltzer has clearly helped shape wrestling culture today and maybe his influence is hardwired into what is considered a great match, but I have some trouble buying that it is more influential than a number of other factors. Regardless, the 6 star stuff and the billion 5 star matches feels more to me like him (probably mostly unconsciously) riding a wave of something bigger. I would venture a guess that most of the kids buying bullet club merch at Hot Topic don't give a damn who Dave Meltzer is or how many snowflakes he's packing. I would even venture that most wrestling fans that are involved with some of the most buzz worthy indy stuff don't give much thought to Meltzer and his stars until well after they have hyped matches themselves on their own blogs and podcasts, if they do at all.

 

In all, the style shifts seem over-determined to me and Meltzer just feels like part of what is happening. If anything he is a face (seemingly a willing face) that swaths of fans can put on the issue.

 

This is a great post! A single story that I think encapsulates the shift as well as any that Dave tells from time to time: he had dinner with Chris Benoit and Eddy Guerrero after a New Japan show once. This was in 1994, so they were respected as good workers, but it was before they really became hardcore darlings at the level they would become. Anyway, Dave thought they had a great match that night and told them they tore the house down. The reaction from both was, "You really think so?" and they both started ripping apart their own performances in the match. Dave's takeaway was that they were perfectionists who were hypercritical of their own work, but I think an alternative takeaway could be that workers who didn't receive much validation inside wrestling because of their size suddenly found someone who would provide them with plenty of validation, so they decided to work for him. That style found a bigger audience, even if it did run antithesis to a lot of things that were happening with top guys in the U.S. at the time. Those guys and others of their ilk like Jericho and Rey became stars and helped push a shift in the working style on top. None was ever truly the number one guy, but they did have a lasting impact on the main event style, which is why by 2003, guys like Kevin Nash couldn't get over at a main event level in WWE.

 

 

Apparently the match in question was probably the Great Sasuke and Black Tiger vs. Wild Pegasus and Shinjiro Ohtani match, which was really, really great.

[SPS]

Today on WOR during the fans questions one fellow asked Dave about SWS.

 

The guy mentioned that on the same night as the Tenta/Kitao shoot, there was a lesser known Minoru Suzuki/Apollo Sugawara incident.

 

Dave didn't seem to recall much about it and checking my copy and looking online it seems that match never made the commercial release(which is weird because the Kitao one did but maybe since he was a bigger name they wouldn't leave him off).

 

Has anyone else seen this and where could footage of this be found? What exactly happened?

[rzombie1988]

I find it funny that people seem convinced that Dave is masterminding some plan to troll everyone when Occam's Razor suggests that maybe he just really likes the matches he's watching?

 

Like, what's the end game here?

 

 

1. Trolling internet folks that presumably make up the meat of his subscriber base.

 

2 ????

 

 

3. Profit

 

It doesn't make sense as as businessman for him to do that.

I think there is a little more to the Dave/NJPW relationship than is being said. Dave is responsible for NJPW's current interest level in the English Speaking world along with them coming to ROH. He's extremely favorable to them and despite thinking this is the best stuff ever, he still devotes almost no time into any other Japanese promotion.

 

NJPW being hot helps F4W. It means more subscriptions and more publicity for Dave.

[Beast]

 

I find it funny that people seem convinced that Dave is masterminding some plan to troll everyone when Occam's Razor suggests that maybe he just really likes the matches he's watching?

 

Like, what's the end game here?

 

 

1. Trolling internet folks that presumably make up the meat of his subscriber base.

 

2 ????

 

 

3. Profit

 

It doesn't make sense as as businessman for him to do that.

I think there is a little more to the Dave/NJPW relationship than is being said. Dave is responsible for NJPW's current interest level in the English Speaking world along with them coming to ROH. He's extremely favorable to them and despite thinking this is the best stuff ever, he still devotes almost no time into any other Japanese promotion.

 

NJPW being hot helps F4W. It means more subscriptions and more publicity for Dave.

 

 

Because each promotion in Japan is different.

 

This would be like saying "he loves WWE, but spends almost no time on GFW or any other American promotion".

 

NJPW is the big one in Japan and has been for the past few years. He loves their matches, hence he spends more time covering them. If other fans took his recommendation, but then didn't like NJPW, they wouldn't be breaking through over here. But they do, so it is.

[Coffey]

Dave has now rated 4 Kenny Omega matches above 5 stars, putting him at higher ratings than other wrestler in history.

 

Are Kenny and Dave getting it on or something? He can't seriously believe Kenny Omega is better than every wrestler of the last 40 years.

 

This made me curious where he finished in the PWO GWE poll, so I had to go look. #259 - ahead of Stan Lane, below Kevin Von Erich. Did the next year really improve Omega THAT much? He's had some good matches in 2017, certainly, but the love from Meltzer is ridiculous.

[rzombie1988]

 

 

I find it funny that people seem convinced that Dave is masterminding some plan to troll everyone when Occam's Razor suggests that maybe he just really likes the matches he's watching?

 

Like, what's the end game here?

 

 

1. Trolling internet folks that presumably make up the meat of his subscriber base.

 

2 ????

 

 

3. Profit

 

It doesn't make sense as as businessman for him to do that.

I think there is a little more to the Dave/NJPW relationship than is being said. Dave is responsible for NJPW's current interest level in the English Speaking world along with them coming to ROH. He's extremely favorable to them and despite thinking this is the best stuff ever, he still devotes almost no time into any other Japanese promotion.

 

NJPW being hot helps F4W. It means more subscriptions and more publicity for Dave.

 

 

Because each promotion in Japan is different.

 

This would be like saying "he loves WWE, but spends almost no time on GFW or any other American promotion".

 

NJPW is the big one in Japan and has been for the past few years. He loves their matches, hence he spends more time covering them. If other fans took his recommendation, but then didn't like NJPW, they wouldn't be breaking through over here. But they do, so it is.

 

 

They really aren't that different anymore. There's not much of a difference between Zero-1, NJPW, Wrestle-1, AJPW and NOAH and Dave has always prioritized NJPW over the other promotions since the 2000's. Sure Dragon Gate, DDT and BJW have always been a little different, but Dave has never really bothered with those anyway.

 

NJPW being hot is the 2nd best thing that could happen for Dave besides WWE being hot, especially in a world where TNA is basically dead and ROH will never be able to be anything more.

[World's Worst Man]

 

Dave has now rated 4 Kenny Omega matches above 5 stars, putting him at higher ratings than other wrestler in history.

 

Are Kenny and Dave getting it on or something? He can't seriously believe Kenny Omega is better than every wrestler of the last 40 years.

 

This made me curious where he finished in the PWO GWE poll, so I had to go look. #259 - ahead of Stan Lane, below Kevin Von Erich. Did the next year really improve Omega THAT much? He's had some good matches in 2017, certainly, but the love from Meltzer is ridiculous.

 

 

I would say Okada was the guy making those matches anyway. Omega's work against others has been unimpressive with his flaws being more glaring in those examples than they are in the Okada matches. It's interesting because the hype does seem to be behind Omega, although if asked I think Meltzer would say Okada is the better worker. I certainly would.

[PeteF3]

Today on WOR during the fans questions one fellow asked Dave about SWS.

 

The guy mentioned that on the same night as the Tenta/Kitao shoot, there was a lesser known Minoru Suzuki/Apollo Sugawara incident.

 

Dave didn't seem to recall much about it and checking my copy and looking online it seems that match never made the commercial release(which is weird because the Kitao one did but maybe since he was a bigger name they wouldn't leave him off).

 

Has anyone else seen this and where could footage of this be found? What exactly happened?

 

 

Basically as I understand it, Suzuki wanted to work shootstyle and Apollo wanted to work wrasslin'-style and never the twain shall meet. Eventually Sugawara just gave up and left the ring.

[Jmare007]

 

 

 

I find it funny that people seem convinced that Dave is masterminding some plan to troll everyone when Occam's Razor suggests that maybe he just really likes the matches he's watching?

 

Like, what's the end game here?

 

 

1. Trolling internet folks that presumably make up the meat of his subscriber base.

 

2 ????

 

 

3. Profit

 

It doesn't make sense as as businessman for him to do that.

I think there is a little more to the Dave/NJPW relationship than is being said. Dave is responsible for NJPW's current interest level in the English Speaking world along with them coming to ROH. He's extremely favorable to them and despite thinking this is the best stuff ever, he still devotes almost no time into any other Japanese promotion.

 

NJPW being hot helps F4W. It means more subscriptions and more publicity for Dave.

 

 

Because each promotion in Japan is different.

 

This would be like saying "he loves WWE, but spends almost no time on GFW or any other American promotion".

 

NJPW is the big one in Japan and has been for the past few years. He loves their matches, hence he spends more time covering them. If other fans took his recommendation, but then didn't like NJPW, they wouldn't be breaking through over here. But they do, so it is.

 

 

They really aren't that different anymore. There's not much of a difference between Zero-1, NJPW, Wrestle-1, AJPW and NOAH and Dave has always prioritized NJPW over the other promotions since the 2000's. Sure Dragon Gate, DDT and BJW have always been a little different, but Dave has never really bothered with those anyway.

 

NJPW being hot is the 2nd best thing that could happen for Dave besides WWE being hot, especially in a world where TNA is basically dead and ROH will never be able to be anything more.

 

 

To be fair, Dave has said in more than one occasion he watches pimped stuff from All Japan and Big Japan at least. He's a big fan of Sekimoto and Okabayashi, as any normal human being should be

[Loss]

And DG, Progress, Rev Pro, and other places. They just don't get star ratings. His timeline being multiple versions of the same point about WWE matches not getting ***** or how matches would have gotten ****** if they happened in New Japan is nauseating. He always replies to those. Without fail.

[SPS]

 

Today on WOR during the fans questions one fellow asked Dave about SWS.

 

The guy mentioned that on the same night as the Tenta/Kitao shoot, there was a lesser known Minoru Suzuki/Apollo Sugawara incident.

 

Dave didn't seem to recall much about it and checking my copy and looking online it seems that match never made the commercial release(which is weird because the Kitao one did but maybe since he was a bigger name they wouldn't leave him off).

 

Has anyone else seen this and where could footage of this be found? What exactly happened?

 

 

Basically as I understand it, Suzuki wanted to work shootstyle and Apollo wanted to work wrasslin'-style and never the twain shall meet. Eventually Sugawara just gave up and left the ring.

 

 

 

Today on WOR during the fans questions one fellow asked Dave about SWS.

 

The guy mentioned that on the same night as the Tenta/Kitao shoot, there was a lesser known Minoru Suzuki/Apollo Sugawara incident.

 

Dave didn't seem to recall much about it and checking my copy and looking online it seems that match never made the commercial release(which is weird because the Kitao one did but maybe since he was a bigger name they wouldn't leave him off).

 

Has anyone else seen this and where could footage of this be found? What exactly happened?

 

 

Basically as I understand it, Suzuki wanted to work shootstyle and Apollo wanted to work wrasslin'-style and never the twain shall meet. Eventually Sugawara just gave up and left the ring.

 

 

Thank you so much for answering and proving the match. That was as interesting to watch as the Kitao/Tenta one, can't believe I never heard of it after all these years.

[Sean Liska]

And DG, Progress, Rev Pro, and other places. They just don't get star ratings. His timeline being multiple versions of the same point about WWE matches not getting ***** or how matches would have gotten ****** if they happened in New Japan is nauseating. He always replies to those. Without fail.

It's a big waste of his time. But for as much as we complain about that, I love living in a world where I can be in line at the grocery store and have a random thought about a CMLL rudo trios act, tweet something to Dave, and get a response in an hour too. Oh, those old days when we had to send Dave letters in the mail and then hope that of all the ones he received, he would print ours and possibly respond to it.

[jcmmnx]

I stopped taking Meltzer seriously when he started giving Davey Richards matches high ratings. With all the talk of how wrestling is more work rate oriented now you have an entire 205 division that can't get a reaction, and Stroman is the most over guy in WWE.

[BigBadMick]

Lightning quick, definite statement made with 19 seconds thought number 237 - cena v Corbin was in the bottom 10% of Cena PPV matches ever.

[El-P]

Considering it was not even a good match and considering Cena's record on PPV, I don't see how that's an outreagous statement. Funny how people bitch about "Meltz hates WWE" but no-one mentions how he loved the main event and how Braun came off like the biggest star to him. Doesn't fit the narrative of the thread I guess.

 

(I don't really care about any of Meltz idiosyncrasies nor snowflakes, unless it's to reflect something about how it can influence the style of the indies, but the constant one-way bitching is getting totally ridiculous. Rename this Bruce Prichard's R'US already.)

[BigBadMick]

It's more that there's no way he gave the subject enough thought to make such a declarative statement.

[El-P]

Come on, it's a fucking figure of speach. Everybody does that. Who cares about % and *, really. The match was no good, especially for a Cena PPV match, that's what he meant.

[BigBadMick]

I'd like to think I put more thought into what I say. And I certainly would if I was on a podcast.

[Ricky Jackson]

The match was bad, definitely one of Cena's worst on a big show, and deserves to be dismissed without much thought

[BigBadMick]

I'm not defending the match (I haven't watched the wretched thing btw).

[Jimmy Redman]

I'd say it was in the bottom 10% without much pause. Sounds about right. Weird thing to get pissed about.

[sek69]

It's weird that "Dave loves Kenny" became the talking point when he clearly is the world's biggest Okada fan. And Okada is basically Japanese Ric Flair now where he can broomstick anyone to a four star match, so when he's working with someone who can hold up their end of the deal it's going to be enough snowflakes to fill a decorative snow globe.

[Mad Dog]

I'd say it was in the bottom 10% without much pause. Sounds about right. Weird thing to get pissed about.

 

I can't think of a worse one off the top of my head. Maybe that title match with Lesnar really early in his career?

[Jimmy Redman]

 

 

I'd say it was in the bottom 10% without much pause. Sounds about right. Weird thing to get pissed about.

I can't think of a worse one off the top of my head. Maybe that title match with Lesnar really early in his career?

No that one was good enough.

 

There have definitely been worse ones. The Ace match. A couple of the bad Show matches. The Miz one where he squashed him. The Booker/Show three way from 2006. 2004 probably has candidates.

 

The Corbin match was just ordinary, like 2nd match on SD ordinary, which by Cena PPV match standards does make it bad because Cena has delivered on PPV so consistently for 12 years.