El-P Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 A traditional wrestling match filled with back and forth momentum shifts and Lesnar eeking out a win would have been dumber, so yes, there are definitely worse things they could have done. Well, that's a good point. Like I said, the match itself is awesome and shitloads of fun, and in a vacuum I have no issue with Cena winning the way he did. The work was A++. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 I question the wisdom of putting Cena over, especially if he's going to be taking time off. But saying that Brock is just another guy now like Dave and Bryan did is ridiculous hyperbole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Bryan on the radio show was acting like it was the worst booking decision ever, which is a bit much.If we're just talking about WWE, I think it is definitely in the conversation & honestly, maybe it is just because it is so fresh in my memory, it might literally be the worst. At least from a business-standpoint. Nothing else even comes to mind sans the botched InVasion. If we're talking about the history of all of pro-wrestling though, WCW did a lot of things, in my opinion, that were worse. But it was definitely a bad decision and showed a lot of ineptness on WWE. But we all already knew they were inept. I guess that still does not excuse them.  I also have no problem with them saying that Brock is "just another guy." You know what happened with Brock last night? The same thing that happened with The Miz in the "I Quit" match. It was basically a 2-on-1 30 minute snuff film and in the end, Cena just hulks-up and wins anyway. Just like last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 The funny thing about all of Dave and Bryan's hysterics is one of the acceptable scenarios for Cena winning that they had mentioned beforehand would be having Brock kill him the whole match and then slip on a banana peel. When that was pretty much what happened, it's suddenly the WORST BOOKING EVAR~! Â The match itself was pretty great, it was like the closest WWE has ever came to having a straight up shoot fight. Both guys looked like they were just beating the shit out of each other (and Dave was right saying anyone else would have got the "these guys can't work" tag since beating the shit out of each other for real =/= working), and since both guys were busted hardway you can see they were. Â I don't even have an issue with the finish in terms of leaving money on the table with Brock, since it seems pretty easy to just have him come out and kill people on Raw to re-establish his monster status. My issue was it was yet another Superman Cena comeback, which is exactly why so many fans over the age of 13 dislike him. He's reached the point where once he grabbed the chain outside the ring I immediately thought "oh shit, he's going to actually win this match", and that's exactly what happened. For a company that changes plans because they get out on the internet and 10% of the fanbase knows what's coming, their booking of Cena has been aggressively predictable no matter how many people know he's going over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Might as well just crosspost my "How did the Brock-Cena finish make Brock 'just another guy'?" post from THE BOARD over here... Â --- Â This, more than anything else, is what I'm not getting about what Dave, Bryan, and others are arguing. Â Yes, Brock should've won. Â Yes, that's even more true if Cena is taking time off. Â Still, the finish was that Cena got lucky, and that's ok. Â Brock destroyed him the whole match by using takedowns and the clinch. Brock actively refused to take a shortcut at one point (dropping the chain) because he's such a monster. The only thing he did that he really couldn't have done in a regular match was tie Cena upside down in the corner outside with the chain, and that was after he already beat Cena bloody. When Brock finally decided to end it, the ref was bumped. Cena only won because he did what Brock didn't need to do, he used the chain, and not only that, he used it to punch the giant monster of a man that is Brock in the jaw with his chain covered fist as he was barreling towards him. Then Cena hit his finish on the steps, and just barely won the match. Â From here, with Cena gone, they can have Brock run over everyone else and build to the rematch with Cena as WWE's last hope. This is far from Lesnar being booked as just some random WWE Superstar. He worked a completely different style from everyone else (he did a knee from the Thai Plum into an Irish Whip and a Kimura from the guard on the stairs for crying out loud) while taking 99% of the match against the top guy in the company. Â Also, WWE just did the EXACT SAME STORYLINE with HHH-Taker. Taker won the first match, but did he really BEAT HHH? It's the same deal here. Cena won the match, but did he BEAT Lesnar? Â The optimal scenario was Brock winning by cutting off a hopeless Cena comeback and injuring him. Absolutely. But they did not fuck this up, and they did not stop Lesnar from looking different and special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Cena won the match, but did he BEAT Lesnar? Yes. Absolutely. Brock didn't slip on a banana peel and got small packaged. Cena busted him open with a chain and dropped his ass on steel stairs. Then walked around the ring and cut a promo while Brock was nowhere to be seen again. Yes, he did beat Brock. Totally felt like the ending of a big feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 This was not just another Cena superman comeback. This was an almost broken Cena hitting the one lotto ticket he had on overconfident monster Brock. I don't say that to defend the big picture booking; I think Brock probably should've won. But if you just look at the match, the finish absolutely worked with everything that led up to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 It's like that one guy at DVDVR said. This wasn't Cena as Superman, this was Cena as John McClane. Â I wasn't really a fan of the "you won the battle, but I won the war" buildup for Taker/HHH, but I think it would work better in this situation. While Cena's gone, they could have Brock plow through the roster in straight wrestling matches and play it up that Cena only won because he used a chain. At the very least, let's see how this plays out on Raw before we declare this to be the worst storyline in the history of narrative fiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 Brock will get over by throwing all of WWE's conventions on their collective head. Winning and losing doesn't matter as much as it should, sadly. If the idea from here is that Brock doesn't care about winning and losing, that he cares more about maiming people, there are tons of possibilities and Brock maintains his mystique. Â You'll never go broke betting against WWE coming through on things like this, but I'm not convinced yet that they've dropped the ball. Agreed 100% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 I don't even have an issue with the finish in terms of leaving money on the table with Brock, since it seems pretty easy to just have him come out and kill people on Raw to re-establish his monster status. My issue was it was yet another Superman Cena comeback, which is exactly why so many fans over the age of 13 dislike him. He's reached the point where once he grabbed the chain outside the ring I immediately thought "oh shit, he's going to actually win this match", and that's exactly what happened. For a company that changes plans because they get out on the internet and 10% of the fanbase knows what's coming, their booking of Cena has been aggressively predictable no matter how many people know he's going over. The majority of people thought he was going to win at WM. He lost. Â The majority of people thought he was going to lose to Brock. He won. Â Did anyone think he would lose to LORD TENSAI on tv?! Â The way he's been booked lately has been the opposite of predictable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 It's like that one guy at DVDVR said. This wasn't Cena as Superman, this was Cena as John McClane. Maybe a bad analogy. Hans never drew another dime after jobbing to McClane. Â Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Wow, however you feel about this whole deal it seems to have killed Todd Martin's enthusiasm in his Raw Report. He usually has some kind of observation about the direction of the show in the summation, sometimes snarky, sometimes his honest opinion. Today it was just "it is what it is". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 That's preferable to Bryan on the radio show today. His loud complaints about John Cena not being in the beat the clock matches after beating Lesnar, while Lawler was, were insufferable. Hey, maybe Cena will get a shot at the title after he's dealt with Laurinaitis and Lord Tensai, OK? I mean part of the Cena hate was how the WWE title always revolved around him. What's the big rush? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Cena not being in is logical since he's supposed to be hurt. Lawler being in makes no sense whatsoever, but at this point, who cares ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 People Power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Cena not being in is logical since he's supposed to be hurt. Exactly, Bryan is at his most annoying when he complains about things not making sense when they actually do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 It turns out, that Cena did just win the match. He's not out, he's moving on to Johnny Ace & Tensai. Brock, after Triple H verbally embarrassed him to start RAW, is now apparently going to do shit with Triple H, if he does anything else at all (reading about his backstage blow-up). Â So, yeah, all that crap about "the big picture" and Brock "probably" should have won. OF COURSE HE SHOULD HAVE FUCKING WON. And this is exactly why. WWE can't follow-up on shit and they proved it again. Brock IS just another guy, now. Clubber Lang lost to Rocky in the first fight, Mickie lives and the movie ended after half an hour. That was the story. Â John Cena, after a year of build-up, talking about how he "has to win" against the Rock, loses and then there's no consequences. He just beats Brock at the next show and smiles and cuts a babyface "I'm OK you guys!" promo. Â Why the fuck did they even bring Brock back? $5 million dollars for an ego stroke? Really? And this is a publicly-traded company? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 On today's Observer Radio, Dave talked about how the WWE's mindset is to have Brock put over as many of their guys as possible before he flakes. Feel free to kick me in the balls if I ever say that the WWE should be given the benefit of the doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted May 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Well yes, I think even people who didn't think the Extreme Rules finish was the end of the world would agree that's pretty stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 On today's Observer Radio, Dave talked about how the WWE's mindset is to have Brock put over as many of their guys as possible before he flakes. Jaw drops. Â So, that picture Brian Alvarez posted yesterday wasn't so dumb after all. 5 millions in the drain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 We probably could use a comp of how Dave, Wade and MKJ are reporting this and then look back to see who ended up right. Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 5 million was always overpaying as Brock was never a major wrestling draw and there is zero reason to presume MMA fans will follow him back to the WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 Well, it would be ironic for MMA Fans to follow Brock back to the WWE since we've had years of the meme that it was Wrestling Fans who followed Brock to MMA and spiked all those big UFC buys. Those weren't MMA Fans... they were Brock/Wrestling Fans...  "You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!" -Vizzini Meltzer  John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 That said, I suspect Brock is a bigger draw than anyone else on the roster they could have put into a Late April Third Tier PPV. I think we all agree that this will probably pop the best post-Mania PPV buy number in a good long while. Â John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 1, 2012 Report Share Posted May 1, 2012 I kind of like the idea of using Brock, who won't be sticking around for more than a year tops, to put over as many of their guys as possible. They need to rebuild and be thinking a few years into the future and nothing else has worked. I probably just wouldn't have started with Cena. I guess they were trying to have their cake and eat it too. If he was sticking around I'd use Sheamus to fight for his buddy Triple H here and build to a big grudge match for the belt, and have Sheamus actually win it. Then, if Brock's going to go, he can go. Right now I don't think they gained all that much from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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