tomk

Yeah the folks on stormfront still resent his old rap gimmick.

Trying to remember if masked Jimmy Golden was supposed to be Hogan or Sid. But either way.

Where's the quote from HHH on Ray Stevens?

People give Dave alot of shit these days as though his opinions and values in wrestling have changed a ton but nice to be reminded that Dave was always a Dragon's gate fan: I gave Bix shit for praising Missy for saying the same kind of obvious stuff that you can get from any other veteran. But she understands that MX were great (for ability to work toward heat) despite the highspots. Not really sure why he thinks that Observer readers would find book boring or that the analysis outdated in 88. Fun book and easy read. I sent Bix a copy at one point and remember liking it a bunch. I know they used it in the MIT class on wrestling last year and the students really didn't get it at all. But honestly most of the students' analysis of all the materials came off sub Keith (I'm guessing that social science students at MIT are about as sophisticated as mechanical engineering students at Barnard). Still they really didn't get that book at all.

We have footage of both Terry Gordy and Rey Jr from when they were like 14/15. And I think Juventud from when he was 17. All seemed to get it out of the block. Gordy in my mind is most impressive since most superheavyweights dont have stuff figured out till their 30s.

I don’t buy the Angle comparison. It’s a bad comparison. Race and Angle really aren’t comparable. Race was smarter. Race had better facials. Race was a better brawler. Better strikes, better sell for strikes. Race sold better. Race fed face’s comebacks better. Race laid out finishes better. Race has a better body of high end work. Race worked heel better. And all these places better isn’t just a little bit better but a ton better. Race is a 60’s wrestler who we are watching footage of from the 80s. Ric Flair is a 70s era wrestler who we mostly have footage of from the late 80s-00. The older he gets, the more locked into formula he becomes, the less credibly he’s booked, the shorter the matches he tries to fit his formula into---the more the holes in his formula get exposed. I have a bunch of title matches from when Race held the WWC title in 89 and the flaws are pretty glaring. While all that is a way of saying that comparing Angles flaws during his peak with Race’s post peak isn’t fair, it should be said that Race’s post peak stuff is better than Angle’s peak. I’m trying to think if there is an Angle meaningless spotfest match as good as Race v Barbarian from 86. Race’s worst instincts are better than Angle’s best. That said this is a thread about Race’s worst instincts. Race can be really frustrating and disappointing. Race is a guy who the toa guys always talked about having a “Big Book of Moves” and he can be really great in ring against other guys with Big books (although he can disappoint there too—as not always have the sense that he’s come up with a hierarchy of those moves). Put against guys with a smaller book and it can be a mess. There are interesting entertaining ways to lay out a non one sided fight between a guy with a cannon and one with a spear and then there are ways that just come off foolish. For lack of better term I’ll call this a proportionality problem as in “disproportionate military response” (I’m sure if I knew something about role playing games there is a better word). If you watch a lot of 80s wrestling you’ll watch lots of guys deal with the proportionality problem. Flair v Kabuki from Japan where Kabuki’s offense consists of a superkick and a stomach claw (that emphasizes his double jointedness). Jumbo v Blackjack from AWA where I think Blackjack’s big move appeared to be to cup Jumbo’s head with one hand and drive his knuckle into the temple with the other. I’m trying to remember what Bugsy Mcgraw did in Bugsy v Baba (although that’s not really in the same league as the others as Bugsy v Baba was from All Japan and not Florida). I don’t get the sense that Race is among the better guys at handling that situation. It’s especially frustrating against undercard workers. The brainbuster on the floor where opponent gets up and gets into the ring and then goes on offense is a bad spot. Maybe it’s a dramatic spot in a big match. In Japan it would take a twenty count and not a ten. In against a guy who has a proportionate response to brainbuster on the floor it might work. In against a guy who has a bodyslam? In against an undercarder…. Race will give undercarder Dickie Steinborn a fishermen suplex in the ring throw him to the floor brainbuster him on the floor, then have Steinborn come back into the ring control the next 60% of match till Steinborn throws his bodyslam or drop kick for near fall then go up for crossbody for Race to roll him up. When Flair is working the same “Sam Houston/Ricky Santana is outwrestling the champ and controlling 60% of the match” Sam Houston still sells his chops. And fuck I’d rather have Sam Houston no sell a chop then no sell a brainbuster on the floor.

Reading that passage and I don't think he gets that point. Or would know what to do with it.

It's unclear if Vnce watched the entire show or just the main. And maybe I know too much, but I can't imagine anyone being able to watch UFC without being hit over the head with Dana White's Liddell hero worship.( White's the sucker who really thought that Liddell being shown up in Pride was a result of Pride rules and reffing.) Vince isn't known for his media literacy, but I don't think he could watch UFC without realizing that Liddell is the favorite son. I'd also assume one of the underlings that insisted on vVnce watching UFC was Undertaker (another guy with a comical Chuck Liddell infatuation). I assume that that's what was meant by "wrong guy". I'm paraphrasing your point into the actual classics thread to see if get anything deeper out of Meltzer. So classics has been down for a couple days fror me but Meltz post here: http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbc...=1&t=086301 (Also worth tracking down his goofy posts about why Angle v. Puder would have draw better than Lesnar v Mir).

It won't be on my MOTYC list by the end of the year (probably wont be on list by the five or six month point) but 3 months in and I still dig Barnett v Ogawa from the first IGF show of the year.

Yeah I think your bar for insightfull is set pretty low. And I'm pretty sure that she was saying similar things inbetween asking for Bret's sperm back in the day too, it's just that her wanting Bret's sperm is more entertaining than pointing out that the MX are a classic tag team.

HHH doesn't like garbage wrestling or black people but Abby seems like a good candidate. You can have a Foley speech, sell a DVD, have him come out on RAw to dance with Godfather's ho train, etc---all the things you want out of a WWE HOF candidate.

Hennig and the Von Erichs are dead. Dynamite is alive, doesn't look good.

I'm pretty sure that when I was looking at HHH as PPV draw one of the points that I wanted to make is that he does seem to be a cage draw (not arguing that he's a better cage worker than Rusher or Dusty but bigger cage draw). For better or worse I think I used some elimination chamber numbers as part of that argument. This may have just been Summerslam and Rumble numbers which would back your original theory...but I thought Elimantion Chambers with HHH did well as a rule.

. The exact quote may have been that he will "become a better version of Gordy" or something like that. He may not have said better than Gody at that moment but (assuming my memory is worth anything) I think the Gordy comparison started there.

Meltzer was pushing the Morishima as great heavyweight vis a vis Gordy thing since before Morishima went to ROH. Fuck if I can remember the shitty tag match where Meltzer first expressed that belief. My guess is that the Meltzer talking point was one of reasons Gabe decided to do the Morishima run. Is Dave "above being influenced by Gabe"? Was Dave above being influenced by Heyman? Is Dave above being influenced by Ross? Is Dave above being influenced by Konnan? Clealry no. but the Morishima as amazing heavyweight who moves like a junior was a Meltzer talking point is proably the first place Gabe heard of Morishima.

Read the actual links not just the titles to give you a sense of how central he was. Yes he was booked in 2006 better than Benoit was when Benoit had the title. But better than Benoit seems like really low standard. In 2006 and 2007 was he booked to ever look stronger than Michaels or HHH. Was he booked to look tough? How many times did he fight back from blood loss? I watched RAW with judicious use of tivo during the Cena run. During large sections of that run he may have been featured more than Eddie was when he was feuding with Big Show over US title and laxative in burritos (which also got a fair amount of time). His booking may not have been as bad and undermining as that either. Again I have higher expectations than that. I've been watching wrestling since the 80s. And expect more than somewhat "better than 2003".

Haven't read the observer piece but it is a fed that has taken several sharp changes in directions that the fanbase has been willing to accept. I'd credit that more to the booking than to the fans...and honestly it wouldn't come off as impressive booking if it wasn't for how shitty the major US promotions are at doing restarts and direction changes.

Speaking of Cole I was reading the March 3rd Observer and their was this piece on Coachman So couple thought: 1) How completely ridiculous it is for a publicly traded company to be behaving like this. Does Coachman have a broadcasting degree? Its not just that you won't see this in a white collar job (Fred doesn't meet his quota so the boss has other secretaries hit him with file cabinets). But I don't even think I could get away with that if I ran a Mexican garment factory. Paola ruins two pairs of jeans so the factory boss has all the other girls on the factory floor stick her with sewing needles. 2)Michael Cole has been in the WWF/E for about a decade. In that time I can't remember him ever being physically punished for anything. He has been verbally browbeaten and put in humiliating situations (even there all I got is the Heidenreich rape angle). But during that ten year period Ross has been beaten till he lost sight in one eye and been repeatedly physically punished for stuff, Coachman has been physically punished numerous times, and even Josh Mathews gets punched in the mouth. I can't remember ever reading about anything happening to Cole. Whatever the Observer poll voters may think of Cole, he is clearly someone that the office thinks is doing a good job. Either that or I'm forgetting something.

I'm pretty sure that Cole was an ex-Simpsons writer. I've read that a bunch of times. Cole's not Jewish which is why I pulled in the Simpsons reference as he has worked as part of Jew Hollywood Satire Propaganda Machine.

Yeah Cole used to write for the Simpsons and his Yid propaganda really ruins matches for me to.

Cool. Then question number 2 is : When did you stop watching? Are you looking for reccomendations from 99 forward, 2000 forward, 2003 forward? When?

I don't buy it. Batista yes. Cena has been booked better than Goldberg, World title holder Jericho or Benoit...but all you need to do is go to Online World Of wrestling to see how he's been actually booked. He has a movie coming up after Mania which will prevent him from getting sidedrained into an endless back and forth feud with whoever is the current functional equivalent of Christian or Kane (Jericho or Ken Kennedy maybe) on Raw. But low expectations is the only way to explain people claiming that Cena has been booked/protected well. Orton has been protected ever since HBK beat Orton and Edge two on one. Orton protected for about a year with the idea being since begining that he was being protected for either HHH or HBK comeback. Edge has been protected better than former Smackdown anchors Angle, Eddie, JBL, or Lesnar? Given the way they are currently being booked who on your list of guys (Orton, Edge, Batista, Cena) do you see as being on a tier above the level where they get booked into working a series where they trade wins with Kane? Who isn't?Why? What number is Kane (above below #10)? What number is HBK? Also the question of how much focus did promotion of Cena's PPV mains get on Raw vis a vis promotion of the Hornswaggle storyline. What number is he? One of the things that I do think the WWF has done better than they would have done 6 years ago is Santino Marrella. On segunda Caida I wrote: There was a point in first half of this decade that I think the WWE really forgot this. And you would get hot fun comedy midcard act Eugene being thrust into the main event. "Hey this act is over...lets see if the main can get some rub from that"...result was killing the overness of the midcard act. Orton isn't retaining at Mania. But if he was it sure as hell wouldn't be because of Marrella. There might be a situation where they will panic and say "Hey that Marrella guy gets a hot response". and I could see making the argument that the reunited DX should have been kept as a Too Cool/Sheepherders type act..but for now they aren't screwing that up.

Cena with the title positioned in the midcard of RAW was 2005. The Rey title was 2006. Edge was 2007. HHH and Undertaker have been pretty protected for the entire decade. So your point is that from late 2007 to begining of 2008 Cena and Orton have been protected thus the booking has improved dramatically from what it was six years ago?

I'm not sure what the evidence of this is.

What the fuck kind of publicly traded company is Vince running? He doesn't have a firm representing him? He just has a lawyer? McDevit has no associates?