thebrainfollower

And they did have a huge Betamax collection but no non WWF tapes which explains a lot of my prejudice. Except Starrcade 90 which isn't exactly WCW's finest moment.

The last Betamax movie was Terminator 2 I think Johnny Sorrow. The guy had invested 50/50 in both formats and my parents were total idiots with electronics. The same Christmas they bought an Atari 7800 instead of a Nintendo because "it had more games". So yeah we bought a format that was dead, and then my dad lost his job and it was a long six years until we upgraded to VHS.

My parents bought a Betamax for the Christmas of 1987. The reason being the local video store owner talked them into it, as he thought Beta would win the format wars and heavily invested in it. They had a pretty reasonable selection of WWF tapes, all the PPV's except Wrestling Classic up to WM V, and about ten random tapes, mostly from 86-88. We upgraded to VHS in 93 and that opened up a lot more possibilities including a handful of WCW tapes. I ended up buying virtually their entire WWF VHS inventory for $2 a pop in 2004, which amounted to about 50 tapes from 85-92.

That match is horrible Jerry, but that's actually BEFORE the feud. The feud started at the next tv taping. I was thinking more of the SNME and MSG matches I've seen.

Shawn says it was Razor who taught him to work singles, so maybe there's some truth in that claim after all. I too find 92-93 Shawn boring as hell on offense, and with a pretty lame finish to boot.

Bret Hart's side Russian leg sweep. Ted Dibiase's off the ropes Powerslam. Arn's Spinebuster (particularly to Shawn Michaels at Survivor Series 89) Jake's short arm clothesline

I really love the concept of the Jake-Rude feud in 88 and while the matches weren't exactly horrible, they weren't great either. Shawn-Bret never really had an in ring feud except in the summer of 92. 96 was just one match and 97 they very rarely wrestled each other on TV, if at all except SS 97 IIRC.

I've got my wrestling collection on 2 different drives, yeah.

Breaks my heart that someone who gave me more entertainment than anyone else a kid has had the decade Bobby Heenan has had. I don't think I could stand to see him without breaking down.

I hear what you are saying Shoe. I feel like with the Harts, they were overrated and are now in danger of becoming underrated. Recently on other boards I had to defend them as a better team in the WWF than either the POP or the new Dream Team, two totally absurd ideas IMO.

I watched the 20 or so Prime Times on the network and just don't see this Hart Foundation wasn't good talking point. They usually have the best match on the show, or close to it. Bob Orton Jr is indeed their closest competition and beats them about half the time they directly compete. Are there any six man tags they joined up for on tape?

Quick question about what you saw Parv, was that 4 matches in a row on the same TV show or just a viewing project. If it's the former that must have been one strange experience for the viewing audience. Undertaker missed an elbow drop for approximately the first 5 years of his gimmick just to do his first zombie sit up. Lex had no better luck with the same move. Bret as a heel would miss the flying elbow from the 2nd rope. He'd leap so he flew backward and landed on his back. If he flew straight at the guy, it meant the move was hitting. As a face I think I've only seen him miss it a few times. Certain moves you do as a face suddenly fail when you turn heel. Even something rather hard to believe like Trish Stratus' matrix dodge, suddenly fails miserably when you turn heel. This SORT of makes sense as now you are cockier, and presumably just a hair slower as a result. I don't think I've EVER seen Hulk Hogan as a face successfully hit a back bodydrop. That was a pretty standard heel comeback move for him. Shawn Michaels crotched that top rope so much as a heel you think he'd be kayfabe impotent. Which would explain a lot of DX' antics actually. If Dibiase went up for a SECOND double axehandle in the WWF you knew he was doing his flip over a gut punch transition. A first one might hit though but never a second. Randy Savage as a heel going for the legdrop on the back of your neck while you lay like a dog on the bottom ropes almost never worked. Undertaker as a face pre 2000's would almost always make a first mini comeback with the knocked out of the ring then clothesline the guy over the top rope spot. It should be noted all this stuff worked in squash matches, so you can sort of see what's logically happening in kayfabe terms. Also this is why I adore Johnny Polo commentary, because his character would ALMOST point out this stuff and break kayfabe.

The LIta-Trish Stratus feuds, which actually had girls interested and having a character to relate to in Lita. From start to finish this feud over the years seemed to actually matter to women viewers under say 25.

Randy Savage and Elizabeth's WWF story particularly the Wrestlemanias, are the closest WWF's ever come to pure art IMO. WM 2 - You introduce the characters, a great wrestler but horribly lacking in self esteem Randy Savage who bullies and belittles this gorgeous woman Elizabeth who clearly worships him despite what he does to her. There's also this misguided nitwit George Steele who likes her. Savage exploits this to beat him. WM III - Savage's evil deeds finally come to haunt him as Steele helps get new rival Ricky Steamboat the IC title. Savage is devastated and beings to really doubt himself, leading to a face turn and an alliance with Hulk Hogan leading to. WM IV - Savage wins the title and the tournament BUT he need Hulk Hogan to do it and you just know those insecurities will get to him leading to WM V - Savage's first face turn explodes in the same self esteem and envy issues that always plagued him. This time his defeat is even more profound as he loses both the WWF title and his woman. WM VI - Savage is now a pathetic shell of himself a "macho king" who can't even beat Dusty Rhodes and his manager who can barely wrestle. And Elizabeth shows up to remind him of this. WM VII - It all goes to hell as Savage's career ends at the hands of the Warrior. Broken and defeated, attacked by the manager he hired who's turned him into a wimp, he is down and out as the love of his life Elizabeth returns and saves him. And FINALLY he realizes love is not about you, it's about the one you love and so he loses his career, but gains his soul and self respect for the first time. WM VIII - Savage again wins the big one, but this time on his own. No Hogan, no insecurities, he and Elizabeth are on top of the world and that's that. And if Savage and she had retired the day after this and never shown up on wrestling again it would have been the greatest FN love story since Casablanca.

This is one of those things I just cannot believe. How could anyone be that stupid twice? Its' not even comprehensible to me.

Bret by a good long ways. Hennig lets me down more often that not post 88.

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To be fair, Hogan's ego is probably no better than Flair's though they operate in different ways. Not to bury Flair, but the pathetic comment is based on his public behavior, marriage problems, financial problems and all the other stuff not just his clinging to the spotlight. None of that takes away the fact that as I said, he's most likely the GOAT for me too and one of the most amazing talents ever. If you can't separate the two I can understand that. Plenty of people cannot have their sports heroes taken apart as people. I guess I've just never had that problem.

I think the problem may be Flair remembers his late stuff more and let's face it WWE run Flair was pretty weak on offense.

There are places you can usually get the data recovered Jerry. If you were in the US I'd have my pc expert do it for you.

Now to be fair, Lex's personal life seems to be very questionable at best, and his role in the death of Liz is certainly something that takes away respect as a human being. But as a businessman I do admire him during his pro career.

I feel like I at least deserve consideration for a Nobel Peace Prize for creating a thread that's got you two talking in a civil manner. With Luger, can someone point out to me why he's on the level of a Sid or Brody or even Hogan? I mean specific ACTIONS he took in his career. To the best of my knowledge he never refused a job. He never tried to make someone look bad in the ring and put them over to the best of his ability. He never held a promoter up for money or breached a contract. What he DID do was to treat wrestling like a respectable business. He tried to put it in the framework of a legally comprehensible system that anyone could understand. He wanted a set % of the house rather than whatever the old crooks (Vince included) felt like dishing out. He wanted (GASP HOW EVIL) health care for wrestlers. What he didn't do was act like the halfwit glorified frat boy that 90% of wrestlers back then behaved as and they resented him for it. Tough. It's not his fault he was smarter. He paved the way for wrestlers I admire of the modern era to behave like reasonable adults (The Rock, Chris Jericho, Trish Stratus, etc) and not dedicate their lives to wrestling when ultimately wrestling the way it's run won't be there for you when you need it. He didn't look out for the promoter's best interests clearly and that isn't his job. But he was a professional by ANY adult profession's standards. For that I admire him greatly and refuse to put him in the same category as someone like a Brody or a Hawk. Anyone wanna make a reasonable case against Lex?

I think Bret looks down on what Flair's become as a person. Maybe what he always was. And I agree with him completely. Not to say Flair isn't the GOAT, he probably is, but as a person, he's rather pathetic at best. And I say this as a person who made him cry. As to who brought faster paced offense, I would agreed both groups improved things in the WWF but in different ways. The offense Dynamite and Bret brought was different, the speed and psychology and intensity that the NC crew brought was a new thing as well.

I was referring to his in ring character work in his WWF run. But I also pointed out that Rude had the easier character to play in ring. Pose a lot, look cocky, act like your opponent is beneath you but then when he messes up your face or gets you angry, act like one vicious SOB. Rude does that pretty consistently in all the WWF matches I've seen. Ted's got a harder character to play in ring because how fundamentally does a millionaire wrestle? There isn't a set style really (though crazy brawler and high flyer would both be very strange choices) so in ring he's sort of just a generic "technical" wrestler. He does everything really smooth and his offense usually looks absolutely great, but there's not the same passion in it there is for Rude. Partly I think that's the character, partly I think that's where each guy was in his career by then, but it's one place where, and I'm not convinced it's fair per se, I think Rude is better than Dibiase. Your points about Ted being whatever the booker wanted him to be is accurate Parv. It's why to me Ted is what HHH wanted to be but never had the skills to pull off, but he's still the guy who works with the guy who draws money for the casual fan. I too eventually voted for him over Rude, but it's a close comparison.

I just can't believe it.