dawho5

I liked one exchange with Yamazaki stopping himself from going after Anjoh so he got the "down", then Anjoh getting pissed and not doing anything of the sort. So once Yamazaki gets back in charge he does the same, beating down Anjoh with headbutts. Anjoh seemd to have learned from this and settles down to get is own " down" on Yamazaki moments later. Good stuff. I don't mind shootstyle and these guys did a good job of structuring things.

I enjoyed Tenryu as much as most here. Seeing Misawa as the plucky FIP was great also. Fuyuki helping Tenryu get the upper hand on Jumbo after the hot tag was an interesting twist. Jumbo having to fight through the superior teamwork was the wrinkle that made this match really pop for me. The ending was interesting with Tenryu eventually causing Fuyuki's doom and then walking away in disgust. What a glorious asshole move.

I thought this was a great competitive squash. Sullivan missed his calling as a commentator unless he started working somewhere I'm not aware of after he retired from active wrestling. Cactus looked great, so did Lee Scott when you think about it. Sullivan's comment about Foley's health was prophetic when you think about it.

Not a big fan of joshi pacing or the way they will spam the same move in threes or more, but the sleeper war was great. Mita and Hotta were awkward and not exactly convincing at times, but overall better than most joshi I've seen.

That is a tough one. I can still watch matches with Benoit, Invader 1 and Snuka and see what they are as workers, etc. But somewhere in the back of my mind I realize what they did and somehow manage to separate the performer from the human being. I don't in any way condone what they did, it's just the same as watching the Naked Gun movies and buying O.J. as a sympathetic, comedic character despite the reality of the man. I think it's part of the suspension of disbelief while something is being viewed. Outside of that, it's hard to see even somebody like Benoit, who obviously had some psychological issues and needed help he didn't try to find, in any kind of positive light. But there is something to be said for separating somebody's art from their horrible low moments that got the light of day shone on them. Imagine if the media/internet were as pervasive as it were 100 years ago. Would somebody like Babe Ruth or Lou Gherig, Sandy Koufax, Dick Butkus, Lou Thesz....the list goes on and on, would they have had massive character flaws? Shit, I know he's not any kind of sacred cow but take a look at Kensuke Sasaki. He killed a kid trying to learn to wrestle in the dojo. Sure it was probably an accident, but murder, intended or not, should be treated as such. And Sasaki's case was not all that scrutinized that I remember. Did some of the heroes of yesteryear have the same kinds of (or worse) skeletons in their closet that just never were uncovered? I'm not saying it makes murder in any way okay, but to me there is a separation of what a [performer did in their chosen field and who they were away from that profession.

On this one I'm not sure. I go back to when I would listen to co-workers tell me about movies and how this or that movie was really funny. Then I'd watch the movie and not think it was funny at all. If a certain person reviews matches and consistently likes matches that you don't it's probably a good bet their opinion is going to carry less weight for you. It has nothing to do with the validity of their opinion, just more a matter of their taste not at all matching with yours. That being said, the Hart vs. Khali argument is a tough one to swalllow. Is it safe to say that there are a certain amount of quantifiable factors that have a big effect on how opinions are formed? I could watch two wrestlers (I'm on disc 7 of PNW so let's go with Billy Jack and Rip Oliver) and tell you a lot about the differences. Billy is definitely more explosive and probably stronger, as well as really looking the part. But he's incredibly limited and struggles to stay away from headlocks for any amount of time. Rip has a lot more tools to work with and seems to know when to employ which tool to it's fullest more often than not. These are things that it's very hard to argue against, but it's possible to prefer Billy Jack in 1983 to Rip Oliver. I went with a closer (but not as much as you think) comparison to highlight the more grey areas of the argument.

There is a certain charm to Don Owens. Some wrestling terms, like "tag team," he just refuses to utter. It's always "team" or "relay team". And he's always got that annoyed-sounding dad tone when he's dealing with anyone that's the least bit heelish. Either he's a TRUE old-old-old-school wrestling guy who refuses to use all the flashy new terms or he never was into wrestling and doesn't care to learn the jargon. Either way he comes across like a crotchedy old bastard who doesn't care one bit about what you think, which I can dig. Far as the match goes it is more of the same from the previous match between Rose and Borne. Good pacing, lots of blood and guts and...yeah Borne almost no-selling the chain which was pretty bad. So a step below, but still one of my favorites on the set so far.

So this match...yeah. Buddy starts off by assaulting Borne as he's taking off his sweatpants. Borne finally lands a good shot and Buddy goes into bump-and-feed mode which is incredible with Borne knowing exactly what to do. The earlier Borne/Rose rivalry had a very inexperienced Matt Borne and it showed. This time around Borne is way less green. Quick (very well executed as well) counter sequence and Borne puts Rose away. Buddy starts off the next fall by knocking Borne into a ringpost. A chairshot follows and Buddy distracts the crowd while Borne blades by menacing a few people in the front row with a chair. Brilliant stuff that, you forget Borne is even around while Buddy is making like he's going to hit a fan with a chair. Rose destroys Borne with a big chairshot from outside in and gets the second fall. Borne makes a comeback in the third and bloodies Rose. It's payback time and the crowd is loving it. I love how they are re-establishing Borne as a face with this match. Shows a wonderful grasp of how to work a crowd. Match spills outside and we get a countout, but it doesn't end there. They continue brawling and Buddy starts swinging a chair at anyone who comes out to stop the fight. Dutch Savage comes out and after ducking a chairshot or two informs everyone that Don Owens is PISSED. Next week is a lights out match where anything goes. With lumberjacks. BUT NOT ON TV???? FUCK YOU!! As it turns out, my completely valid (and not over) reaction to this not being on TV is too soon as Borne and Rose are hooking it up in a lumberjack match two weeks later that wasn't supposed to be on TV. One aside here is that this was only 13 minutes long in it's entirety. I like the style, but a lot of the 2/3 falls matches could benefit from shorter falls. There's a lot of meandering and just back and forth stuff to keep things moving. It works, but it takes a condensed and hate-fueled brawl like this to make me wish ten minutes had been cut off of most of the TV main events. You throw in even a good headlock or armbar sequence and it kills the momentum these guys kept all the way through. Imagine if a few of the Piper matches had been this length!

When is overbooked getting his backing? I'm looking forward to that promotion.

I would agree that yes, you could make a case for shootstyle with pins involved for just the reasons mentioned. You force your opponent to leave openings for you by kicking out. So early attempts at pinfalls become more a strategy against an opponent who is countering your attempts to improve your position well instead of just something to do to kill time. It would also place emphasis on the different ways a wrestler can get out of a pinfall attempt, i.e. which shoulder they choose to roll, which direction they kick themselves up, in an effort to protect against a pass or an attack on a wounded body part. I also think that effective use of strikes and selling of strikes, both initially and progressively can make a big difference in a match.

That match was one of my favorites in the Japan 2000s watching. Ogawa from around 1998 to 2003 is something I need to watch a lot more of because I think he may be one of the more underrated wrestlers of that period. He's definitely a dickish little shit who needs to be put in his place. But as Matt touched on, he's also got this quality about him that is admirable. He refuses to stay down even in the face of impossible odds and finds whatever way he can to make you believe that he actually has a chance. Which is completely and totally ridiculous to think would even be possible. But he manages it in very convincing ways and that's something huge in his favor.

Also, that six man has some serious talent involved. When Invader 3 and Ron Starr are the "weak links" for their teams, it's hard to imagine bad things happening in the match.

Most of this was covered by elliot above me, but I'll be damned if I don't have to stress one thing: The CROWD!!! I'm not certain how they managed to drown out the fucking horns during Colon's comebacks, but they did. I agree that in a set full of amazing crowd reactions, this one is just the biggest and best. Fans almost pegging Chicky in the head with chairs from the front rows is possibly one of my favorite things ever happening outside the ring. Sloppy as shit and Strong is nowhere above decent, but this somehow ends up being a classic match.

Some awesome stuff so far, I'm almost at the end of disc 7. Invader 1 is great with the exception of a lot of his offense. It's just a bit lacking compared to Colon, Abby and Invader 3. His selling and BLEEDING are ridiculous. I can't believe that was all his blood after that match tagging with Invader 2 against Ron & Chicky Starr. I'm pretty sure losing THAT MUCH blood from your head would kill you dead. I will say the blatant punt to the balls when the chops aren't knocking a guy down is a genius bit of fiery babyface offense. As mentioned above, Invader 3 really impresses with the offense. I don't know that he's in the same ballpark as Invader 1 on selling or getting the crowd behind him, but damn is he fun to watch when he gets going. I'd seen the Colon vs. Hansen feud, not the Colon vs. Abby feud. I still prefer the Hansen feud, but it's really impressive how much Colon and Abby vary things up between their different matches to keep it fresh. Ron Starr is a really, really good worker. I don't know if I'd give him great, but I'm right up next to it. Doesn't seem to matter who he works, he brings the goods. Also, HUGE points for crowd brawling in the stadium against Invader 1. Ballsy move there. Chicky is pretty damn incredible. His stomps look really weak, but I can forgive that just the same as I do Invader 1. He is such an energetic bumper and stooger. And I love how much he completely commits to the chickenshit heel stuff, no thought of saving face whatsoever. He also will get vicious at times when he gets the upper hand. Somebody made a comment on Satanico's promos for the lucha set that I think applies here. I don't understand Spanish, but damn if I don't have to pay attention when Chicky Starr starts talking. Dan Kroffat is nowhere near as good in PR as Japan. He's just...missing something. It's like he lets Jaggers bring the douchey heel persona and just goes out there and wrestles for the most part. Jaggers is not bad, but nowhere near a highlight unless he's on commentary. Colon is great at working gimmick matches. He never seems to ignore the gimmick for very long, always making the match, the stip, the circumstances seem more relevant than anyone I've ever seen. He gets how to make things mean something and that's probably part of his mystique with the fans. I dig the idea also that nothing is off limits even for the tecnicos. If you're going up against low down and dirty Chicky and Ron Starr, you better be ready to take just as many shortcuts if you want to win! I think the MVP of everything I've watched so far is the god damn crowd. Whatever venue they go to, there is this insanely rabid crowd that will go as far as throwing punches at the rudoswhen they get within reach. And the reactions when whoever the babyface in the match is starts their big comeback make me want that crowd watching every Southern tag I've ever seen. Also, some of those people are just insanely accurate or lucky in just how much of the garbage they throw at the rudos hits.

Atlantis, Ringo Mendoza y Tony Salazar vs. El Satanico, MS-1 y Espectro Jr. 9/28/84 I thought a lot of the exchanges not involving Satanico and Atlantis looked really awkward. There was one punch exchange involving MS1 that was really good in the third caida. Some excessive repetition drags this down a lot. Two of these came about two minutes apart, which made them stand out. Match followed a good story, with Satanico refusing to face Atlantis on even terms. Atlantis finally gets the better of Satanico in the third, ending with the final sunset flip for the cover. Looks like this was meant to set up a singles match between Atlantis and Satanico and it works for that. Definitely not one of the better matches on the set even if it was fun.

Javier Cruz, Impacto y Solar II vs. El Dandy, Franco Colombo y Panico 10/84 I was a big fan of Dandy ducking Cruz right up until the advantage was there. The beatdown on Cruz (mostly by Dandy) was all kinds of awesome. Impacto and then Solar coming in to save Cruz from the beating was really good the way they did it in stages. Dandy is really incredible in this with the HUGE floor bump, the big sentons, the knee drop to the apron and the awesome punches. His exchanges with Cruz late were really awesome. I also liked him getting a little irritated with his bigger partner for constantly hitting teammates early on. Cruz brought the fire for his comeback and I dug how long it took and the struggle involved for all 3 tecnicos to put away their tormentors. Given how dominant the rudos had been, it seemed right. The finish was awesome, with Dandy selling big even after the match for Cruz's big reversal. Wish there was more of this on tape, because what is there is damn good. Perro Aguayo vs. Sangre Chicana vs. El Faraon vs. Villano III (Elimination Match) 10/84 I don't know that I'd skip all the great early brawling leading up to that tope mentioned by Exposer. These guys all knew how to throw a punch and were going toe-to-toe for a short while. The tope is possibly the most glorious dive I've ever seen. Loved how nobody could keep their nose out of what was going on after the 4 man fall. Chicana bleeds big again and Perro is incredible working him over. The punching comeback from Chicana is as awesome as you would expect. Third fall is gritty as Hell. Loved the dropkick Chicana threw after hitting the ropes. And both of them beating the shit out of each other. Chicana catching a foul kick and responding in kind is another cop-out finish, but they make it work. I'd rank this fairly high so far, but under the cream of the crop.

Sangre Chicana vs. MS-1 (Hair vs. Hair) 9/21/84 Shorter than their earlier match. I really like MS1 as a brawling rudo. The finishes of caidas 2 and 3 work really well together, especially with that nutty bump MS1 takes off of the tope. MS1 selling that tope forever didn't hurt either. Not near as good as their match on disc 1 though. Still a lot of fun to watch. Villano III vs. Perro Aguayo 10/7/84 Perro's offense is all kinds of awesome. I liked how the matwork had a different feel to it than previous mat-based encounters. That double stomp was a great way to end the fall. Perro going right back to the midsection was good psychology. I kind of wish Villano had taken a few moments here and there to do some long term selling of the ribs. Finish is a bunch of garbage, but the post-match brawling kind of makes up for it? Satanico vs. Super Astro 10/84 Okay, you know how I mentioned Satanico is great at getting just enough sympathy to not be a complete rudo? Yeah, that's not how it goes down here at all. First he gets in the much shorter Super Astro's face and talks a bunch of shit. Finishing up with a gesture involving grinding Astro's face into the mat with his boot. And immediately offers a handshake once the match starts. Which he gives cleanly....then starts to viciously kick and knee Astro repeatedly. And then bash his head into anything handy. Astro makes the big comeback bid only to get cut off, but Satanico is gloating and ends up getting caught. And proceeds to throw a fit, fucking great. Second caida Satanico beats the fuck out of Astro more and starts biting and ripping the mask after he can't get it to come all the way off. What a great, great beatdown. Some of Satanico's punches are just brutal looking. Anyway, on to caida 3 where Astro is all over Satanico with the revenge biting. Satanico's face is covered in blood, he gets up and finds that out for himself. And gets royally PISSED OFF! The back and forth contest to see who can work the cut over more is on! The brawl on their knees was really great stuff, with Astro really shining despite getting his face beat in. Satanico is all kinds of pissed off after the rana pin and the crowd lets him have it. Sounds like they set up another match between the two post-match (it's hard to tell) that I'm psyched to see!! Satanico is really making a case as a GOAT caliber wrestler in 1984. He's got a lot of variety in his performances.

I think now more than ever in American wrestling athletic ability is at a premium. If you can't do something that will wow a crowd physically, you're not going to get anywhere. I see two major factors here. 1. The death of kayfabe. Before, we had the idea presented to us that this was a competition. These guys were really interested in winning these matches because they wanted to either a. get involved in a title picture or b. show up their bitter rival. So when that element of "why someone is fighting" goes away and it's just two guys out there for an athletic exhibition, the story becomes less important than how much you can wow the crowd. 2. The way the WWE books. No one person matters. Wins and losses are unimportant. Titles are marginally important. The one thing everybody wants is that Wrestlemania Momenttm. Not so they can say they won the title, but so they can say they won at mania. Because it's Wrestlemania. It doesn't help that no coherent story has developed for anyone that lasts more than a month or two. With those two things in mind, where is a worker going to find the underlying story to put into their matches that gives them the added oomph? What they have to do to get noticed is have spots the crowd pops for each and every time and that's about the best they can hope for is to get a reaction. Seems like a formula for technically sound, physically spectacular, but at the end of the day meaningless matches. As far as Japan goes, my watching of post-2000 wrestling in Japan led me to the conclusion that the big name 90s heroes were the driving force behind all of it. The tropes seem like a mishmash of AJPW and NJPW styles of that era to pop crowds likely raised on those styles of wrestling. It's one thing to pay homage to the heroes of the past. It's quite another to base a style mostly on the easily picked up aspects of a few others without any of the small details or connecting parts or knowledge of why these things are being done. To me it comes off as an uninspired attempt at resurrecting the past.

Satanico vs. Shiro Koshinaka 7/30/84 Satanico playing de facto tecnico?? He's surprisingly awesome at it. Kosh is all over him and won't let up, then wins with one of the more slick backslides I've seen, playing off of the earlier arm work. Satanico bloodies Kosh and is just as merciless, but to the fans delight for a change, to even things up. Kosh gets ervenge and bloodies Satanico worse and we're off to the races. I thought the finish was fun in an odd way. A rudo claiming foul and it actually _was_ a foul by the other guy. Certainly not what I wanted, but fun. El Satanico y Espectro Jr. v. El Faraon y La Fiera 8/12/84 Satanico jumps Faraon to make sure he's not going to get too much sympathy later. Faraon gets the two on one beatdown until Fiera comes flying in and it's Satanico's turn to take a beating. And we get another Satanico as the de facto tecnico performance that is amazing. His punching comebacks in this match are second only to Lawler's that I've seen. He comes up a little short and ends up taking a brutal looking double team to really piss off the crowd. Espectro looks to be making a comeback, especially after he makes Fiera miss. Fuck me, Fiera really doesn't care if he kills himself out there. I need to see more of this crazy dude. Faraon, like any good rudo, takes advantage of an opening and splats Espectro for the countout. Faraon trying to revive Fiera while Satanico is just laying there next to both and Espectro is dead on the floor is such a great, great finish. If this didn't have video issues it may be my match of the set so far. Gran Cochise vs. Satanico 9/14/84 First fall was really good with Satanico finally capitalizing on arm work despite Cochise fighting back. Cochise gives the armwork right back and both are selling it extremely well. Third fall both guys do such a great job of selling the exhaustion and damage done so far. Great chess match style work also, with a few attempt -> reversal -> reversal into the intended move spots that play really well for me. I think Exposer nailed it when he said "it looks like Satanico really is fighting for a championship." The dive spot and the tease beforehand was really brilliant. This is behind MS1 vs. Sangre Chicana and right on par with Mocho Cota vs. Americo for best on the set so far. Satanico is so great at walking that line between evil bastard and a guy you really want to get behind because he just refuses to quit despite the odds. To me his selling is great not just for the obvious reasons, but because he does just enough of it to be more of a "tweener" type without crossing over into the territory of being a tecnico. Oh, and that knee to the back by Cochise was pretty brilliant. I still think it would have been hard to pull that switch off with anybody besides Satanico.

Lizmark vs. El Satanico April 1984 Lizmark hurting Satanico's neck in the first caida was a great setup for what seemed like Satanico barely surviving the second caida. Third caida sees Lizmark go right back at Satanico and come *this close* to getting the win, but Satanico won't stay down. Lizmark's planchas are probably the most incredible version of that move I've ever seen. He's unbelievably graceful. Finish drags the match down for me. Atlantis/Lizmark vs. El Faraon/El Egipcio 2/17/84 Fun brawl with Faraon leading the way. Sets up a match on disc 3 with the pre-match brawling. Atlantis and Lizmark are great tecnicos. Thos kicks by Egipcio are pretty pathetic. Stick to the punches.

I hated leaving Montreal empty, but I'm glad somebody who is way more familiar with the territory picked it up. You're knocking it out of the park so far. I tried to add aspects of what Montreal was to what I wanted to do, but you seem to be more focused on staying true to the wrestling in the area. One thing I can tell you is that I built up King Tonga huge, so you can capitalize on that.

I would think that it is far more beneficial to me as a wrestling fan (and in other areas of life) to be open to at least consider somebody else's viewpoint on a topic. I have, in scope, a very limited view of things based on my experiences. If reading several intelligently written pieces on any topic I either hadn't considered before or had dismissed as not worth my time doesn't at least make me think about it again something is wrong. At best I'm going back to see if maybe I hadn't seen whatever it was in the right light and I can, at the very least, respect what was done in a match (if we're talking wrestling) even if I don't care to watch it that much. To me it's not about letting other people's opinions influence me. It's about seeing something a different way and maybe learning something new. I may not, but it's hard to argue that taking up to 20 to 30 minutes of my day to re-watch (or watch for the first time) a match and understand it better isn't worth my time.

Agreed, there is a very short clip of the ending of a Misawa/Kawada singles match from that time period that makes me think it could have been one of their better matches. I think it was the one that should have been a CC match but for whatever reason didn't count. I want to say 4/11/94. Either way, Misawa is bleeding as we cut into the match and I have this burning need to know how and what happened when he started coming back.