dawho5

My personal feeling on the nature of American bias is a little different. I think that it's an earlier point in wrestling fandom than the more broad, all-inclusive view of things. If you haven't seen the volume of lucha, WoS, shootstyle, joshi, etc. in comparison to the mainstream U.S. wrestling then it's hard to feel comfortable ranking those people ahead of somebody you are able to quantify in relation to their contemporaries. Whereas you can look at somebody like Arn Anderson and know exactly where you want to put him because he's a guy that worked in an era where a lot of stuff was recorded and televised. So you as a fan know exactly where Arn sits for you in the pecking order because you've watched his matches for as long as you've been a wrestling fan and you know how he compares to Bobby Eaton or Flair or a ton of other wrestlers you can name. But if you watched maybe ten Casas, Santo, Blue Panther, Virus, etc. matches each, you may have a vague idea of where you want to put each in relation to one another. But is lucha something you're ready to put up in the top 10 or 20 yet? Would you feel comfortable, looking at the sheer volume of lucha you consumed for the project, ranking Casas above somebody like Arn when you know exactly why Arn belongs where he does? Sure Casas seems really great, but can a person truly justify putting him that high based on such a limited sampling when they've seen the length and breadth of the "mainstream" wrestlers careers? You would have to be an incredibly open minded voter to have that kind of mindset. And given the amount of emphasis that was put on being thorough and voting with some standards in mind, seems that might actually go against the spirit of the project. I do agree with a lot of things you touch on, but I thought there needed to be some kind of counterpoint on that talking point. The bit about voting based on accepted perceptions of wrestlers seemed pretty spot on to me. But like you say, wrestling is a business based very heavily on perception and manipulation of it so that seems like a natural thing.

I'd say Bock did great for us not having his prime on tape. His average vote was among the highest we've seen so far. And he jumped spots from 2006. And he was on 132 out of 151 ballots. That seems like a victory in and of itself. This along with the idea that, yes, people had just discovered him and couldn't justify putting him higher on the amount of footage they had watched, tells me that Bock (and Casas looking at his average) did very well. I think there is a benefit to looking at the list in ways other than "who ranked above and below them." For people who have not been the mainstream guys, it's going to seem like they got the short end of the stick. There was a great post a few pages back about "mainstream" being how most people got into wrestling. So if people are more in the beginning stages of exploring their options, yeah their list is going to be a little more mainstream focused. I think it pays to look at average vote and movement from 2006 as well as actual placement. Edit: CapitalT, that Eddie write-up was great stuff man.

Seems like we're trying to lighten the mood a bit. I thought Bret was great in 97. The way he portrayed his heel character was really innovative for pro wrestling (would be even now.) I agree that it's not enough for top 20, but I am clearly in the minority. I can accept that and disagree with the majority vote.

He made the Patriot seem like a viable opponent for a few matches. In case it was missed, the point of my earlier post was this: There are more than a few people whose negative reactions to the way the list has gone seems like it might give the impression that a lot of people voted "wrong." And maybe the process is bad because wrestler X couldn't possibly be ranked below wrestler Y. Think about it like this. Look at one of the other people whose reactions have been similar to yours on different wrestlers. Did you give those wrestlers the time and attention that this other person thinks they deserved over the course of the project? If not, does this make you maybe think this kind of reaction is a bit overblown? I'm not trying to take a shot at anyone, just trying to push the discussion away from the overly negative direction it's gone lately.

Here's the thing guys. There were over 150 ballots this time. And as much as it is being bemoaned that not everyone "did their homework," which is probably true, it was never required on the ballot that you watched a bunch of matches featuring everybody. So if the general thought here is that the list is too mainstream....if you get three times the amount of ballots from a lot of sources that's what you are going to get. As jdw has said before we are a niche of a niche of a niche. In this particular corner of the internet the idea that footage has to be watched before judgements can be made. Can that be said for wherever a good third of these votes if not more came from? So I think a few things that have been mentioned earlier on in the reactions and forgotten should be repeated. 1. Your list is going to be the definitive list in your mind. You aren't going to agree with where your favorites fall if they aren't very well-known to a large percentage of fans. The more people who vote, the more true this statement is. So if you want the "we are the smart guys" poll, you're gonna have to find a host who isn't Grimmas. 2. If you want to look at the list a different way, look at the placements within each style. Who are the top guys in WoS? NJPW 90s? Lucha? Women in Joshi? And it goes on. This will give you a relative idea of who the people who watched these styles voted for. And I'll repeat myself for good measure. There is a bias towards U.S. workers. There are also 100 more ballots than last time. From 100 people who may or may not have decided to dive into lucha, WoS, shootstyle, BatBat, whatever it may be. I can gaurantee you that the more ballots you get in something like this, the more focused on U.S. workers it's going to be. So look for cases like Casas where he got a very high average among his voters as your positives. And if you really want to see a list where everything is "fair" to your guys, guess what. You have to watch everything else. Everything. And be fair in judging it. And not let your personal biases tell you that your guy at the beginning is still the guy despite everything you've seen. You would have to objectively come to this conclusion by watching enough of every nominee. And I'm not completely disagreeing with the complaints about Buddy Rose or Casas or Hash. They deserve to be higher. But the reality of this kind of deal is going to dictate that they place in a disappointing spot. Unless you go all "elitist" with your process and demand a rigorous process from every voter.

Jun's had been escalating as well. Jun's work in 1996 after moving up to be Misawa's primary partner is quite a distance beyond his 1993 work. It went on from there to his Triple Crown matches in 1997 & 1998. Absolutely true, which is why I separated him from the rest. Jun had just joined the party, so to speak, in 96, where the other four had been building on prior stuff for years by that point. Was in no way trying to undermine Akiyama, just making the point that he hit that level later than the rest.

Bingo. If you have something to say and can say it in a way where you don't insult somebody else, don't hesitate. There probably will be people who disagree with you or call you crazy. Hell, I actually agree that I was crazy for certain opinions expressed on this board in the past. I'm glad I was corrected on my blind Kobashi hate and thank the guys who did that for me.

I have a lot of material for this one, so here goes. All Japan once you hit mid-1997 (maybe sometime in 96 or 95?) is absolutely a series of self-conscious epics. They are matches between two (or four) of the same five guys that had been escalating since 1993 with the exception of Akiyama. Even guys who were friends went up against one another tooth and nail. And the only real additions were big name gaijin like Vader and Johnny Ace as he progressed. Hansen had been moved more into the background by this period. So they had to keep adding more. And making things bigger and "better." Moves that used to put people away were now just nearfalls unless it was a very, very late use of it, probably after something much more recently added. Submissions really lost their meaning. It was the evolution of the earlier style of the Jumbo days into the more fleshed out "4 Pillars" style after Jumbo went, then to the more head-droppy, over the top stuff that kept on going into NOAH. The double selling had been there in the earlier 4 Pillars work, but it was not as predominant. It was used late in big matches once in a while at that point. But they needed to go forward somehow. It seemed like Taue, Kawada, Kobashi and Misawa each had their own ideas on how that should be done. Kobashi and Misawa's methods each involved a lot of head drops and laying around. Kawada took quite a while to embrace that style of things and I'm not sure Taue ever did fully. Not sure Kawada willingly went over or just finally gave up on getting his way. Either way, I'd say Kawada was the least likely of the four to rely on a lot of bombs and kickouts to build drama. Taue was more the "sprinty" guy who liked bomb throwing, but tended to work to the bombs in ways that I really appreciate. Misawa liked his formula and it worked. Use the elbows to make the slow, methodical comeback and start working in the big spots for nearfalls. And take a ton of head drops, ever increasing in big matches. Kobashi I never much cared for the way he built matches. Too much stuff just to keep the crowd going and popping. That's not to say it isn't viable, just not my cup of tea. Akiyama always had to follow the lead of those four, so his matches really became their matches. He did well with it though. There was also some talk of the nuance of the AJPW style. I have a few to add. 1. Strike exchanges All Japan strike exchanges were nothing like the elbow-elbow into oblivion NJPW snoozefests. Each guy had multiple facets they brought to striking and used all of them in a given match. Misawa relied on the elbow. A lot. But it was the weapon that got him the big upset against Jumbo. It was the primary weapon in his patented long term comeback. It KOed Stan fucking Hansen. Twice. I think any one of us would be going back to that well pretty often. He had other things he used, the jumping kicks primarily. Kawada had chops, elbows, kicks, the head pull down punts, lots of ways he would attack. And he used the ropes enough to make things varied between the same moves. And he had the arm psychology he used to set people up for the jumping high kick. Block it and your arm is gonna hurt bad enough that you don't go back on offense. Kobashi had his variety of chops, lariats, and that sweet spinning back kick/spinning back chop mix-up. And Taue, the guy had decent enough strikes, but he also knew he was outclassed striking. So he'd just toss guys down instead of keep up the exchange (something that Tanahashi should have developed, an alternative to throwing the elbow in return when it wasn't working). One thing I will note is that Kawada and Kobashi would get into pissing contests with chops (and leg work). But this was specifically against one another. It was a part of both of their characters. Kawada would also have brief forays into elbow contests with Misawa before he started back in with kicks because he knew he was losing. And you add in that when big strikes started coming out as escalations, people blocked and ducked. They didn't just eat the big move every time. The exchanges were nuanced and they learned from them going match to match. 2. Move level There was a heirarchy of moves and what they meant in All Japan. The majority of the time (the TD 91 is a big exception) the move a guy started using earlier is considered "weaker" than a later move. A big example of this is Kobashi's half nelson suplex. For years his use of this move pissed me off. Why was it a transition? Because it was never used as a finisher in big matches. It was just something he did. Seems completely out of place, but that's the way it worked. Problem with that system ends up being that as time went on, as Parv noted, the tiger driver became a nearfall. And then head-droppy moves started being less and less effective. Five or six were needed to finish a guy off. It got out of hand due to the sheer amount of dangerous suplexes and drivers. Misawa's frog splash was midrange offense way too soon. 3. Use of the floor and apron Seems to me in early to mid 90s AJPW early runs of offense were very often either started or ended with a DDT or something similar on the floor. Kobashi and Taue used this quite a bit. Transitions were common on the floor. Another Hansen influence maybe? Things moved to (again) bigger and "better" with apron spots later on in the 90s. And top rope tigerdrivers made an appearance either late 90s or in NOAH. Thankfully Taue used the top rope nodowa mainly as a tease. At least they were treated like death until NOAH as far as I remember. 4. No-Selling/Overselling As mentioned above, there was the double down forever spot in 93-95. But it was used a bit more intelligently. And there were no-sells of big suplexes and the like, but they showed up once in a match. Again, as we get bigger and "better" it starts showing up more often and becomes a lot more ineffective. From what I have seen the modern NJPW style likes to incorporate a lot of badly done strike exchanges and no-selling. Where the one counts on big suplexes came from I don't know. Modern WWE main event style seems like a poorly thought out cosplay of 90s AJPW as well. It's sort of like Undertaker and Shawn meets the 2000s indies. Which makes a lot of sense. I won't say that I hate the 90s AJPW style. I still like watching the matches. Some of them. What I tend towards is thinking that a LOT of wrestlers and fans fell in love with it for obvious reasons. But the imitations it has produced have ignored the small parts that made the bigger pieces fit together. And I feel like at some point some promotion in Japan or the U.S. is going to have to achieve breakout success using a different formula for their "big" matches for there to be any kind of changes. I still love the original style for it's highs, but I feel like it actually poisoned the wrestling industry by creating a bunch of well-meaning imitators who just don't have the understanding to pull it off.

Just waiting on the response to the post above is killing me.

A few things. Hogan was a major part if two HUGE booms for wrestling in the U.S. during his run. The fact that he rode both booms right into the ground should work against him for sure. But he was the reason people tuned in to wrestling in the first place. So he deserves to be this high. Oh, and I HATE Hogan, so please let him fall sooner rather than later. The whole HHH drama got way overdone. Hate the guy all you want, but don't make it into something that supports the idea of HHH he likes to propagate. My personal choice involves ignoring the fact that he exists. Much less stress for me and doesn't play into HHH's supposed importance. Brilliant reveal and build to it though. Which leads me to: Grimmas you magnificent, carny bastard. Saddest thing for me is that you aren't a pro wrestler or promoter. Seems to me you have been putting in a lot of great work so far on this. And I mean work in a wrestling way just as much as any other way. You know where the highspots are and you build the audience up for them perfectly. Then you present them with the right amount of flair and showmanship. I'm trying to think of a way I'd have the list the way it is revealed that is more entertaining (or pr wrestling!) and coming up empty. Major kudos, sir.

It's boring as shit when people make these kind of posts that defend one sentence posts that shit on a wrestler instead of encouraging further critical evaluation, even if it is just a way of paraphrasing why someone finds a wrestler boring as shit. It's a message board for crying out loud. Discussion is the whole point of it. And let's not pretend this would be the general (maybe it would still be yours) tone if we were discussing a worker the PWO hivemind (which the results have amusingly enough transcended so far) deemed great. I was with you on your arguments in this thread until the "hivemind" part. That's nonsense and you should know better.

It's being revealed in reverse order. Honorable mentions will continue until 101, then the list one by one. Brilliant stuff I say.

Fair enough point, but MIchaels was doing this while he was a face. His behavior didn't change between the two. It was just Michaels being Michaels, and the guy rubs me the wrong way. Faking an injury rather than taking the loss, interrupting one of the best promos I've ever seen with the intention of fucking with Bret and worst of all, putting himself over and refusing to put anyone at all besides Shawn Michaels over. Like I said in the OP, I thought it worked for him as a heel. I wanted to see him get his ass kicked. But if you watch that footage, Bret played a better heel because he actually put the babyfaces over while doing so.

Never was before I watched all of this over. The guy comes off as such a selfish, uncooperative shit throughout.

I'm surprised you guys skipped the 1997 CC "finals" where it went round robin right in sequence on the same card between Kobashi, Misawa and Kawada. There is some really good stuff in those matches and the booking of them is pretty damn interesting.

So I just took about three weeks running through the Hart Foundation set and a lot of things struck me while watching it. I wanted to wait until the end to see what shook out and what didn't. I'll be starting from Austin vs. Bret at SS 96. This match is great and I love how much Bret puts over Austin, the career midcarder to this point. He gives him more than you would ever guess Austin could get on Bret. This match and the WM match of 97 are really the springboard for Austin's rise. I love watching both and this one you start to see what SCSA could be. Bret gives him the time and opportunity to work his character into the match and makes sure to give back enough that Austin's selling shines through as well. For a guy who just signed the biggest contract in company history, Bret sure seems to be willing to help make a new star in Austin. Also, Austin's facial expression when he comes out for this match is absolutely incredible. And then we come to the point where Shawn Michaels "injures his knee" and loses his smile rather than dropping the belt to Sid. If I didn't know better going in, I could believe Shawn as the repentant former heel who realizes he's got to make amends. But since I know he faked the knee injury to get out of doing the job to Sid, fuck you Shawn. And it gets worse. So as a result of this Austin/Bret is the main event of WrestleMania. Despite being non-title, it's the hottest program they have. That contract of Bret's seems like a good call, since he's coming through when Vince's boy Shawn decides to go home when he has to job and he's not the biggest deal on the show. It's all well and good that Shawn is a great athlete and performer. You can't count on the guy. Bret you know he's going to give you the goods on the big stage when he needs to. Now to the WM match. Bret and Austin do the double turn that has been teased for about the last month. The way they did it is brilliant. Bret goes from babyface Bret who takes care of business in the ring to the guy who has started airing his grievances with the way things have gone looking for sympathy. Austin has been unyielding and his confidence has grown in the build to this match. He's not worried about Bret any more. He's just gonna kick his ass. And Bret, post-match, sees that the crowd is still cheering for him a little bit. So he goes over and stomps on Austin just to get it across. I love the little things like that. Next Raw has an amazing promo from Bret cementing his heel turn. He goes over everything that he's gone through since he came back, plus some of the stuff on the side. It's beautiful stuff. And then he blames the fans for letting all of that stuff slide. LOVE that. If you're going to turn a long-beloved babyface heel, this is the way to do it. Enough unfortunate stuff that keeps him away from the title and change one thing about ho he reacts to it all. Bret pulls it off amazingly well, especially given Shawn's interruption of the promo. Knee is looking pretty beat up there, Shawn. Shawn decides to go all "shoot" on Bret, using insider terms and talking about how "Bret won't job". Coming from the guy who faked a knee injury to get out of doing the job on a title change that is pretty damn rich. The fact that he uses *that promo* to make himself a babyface is some kind of crime against humanity. Bret taking out Shawn's "injured" knee kind of proves what we all know. And I enjoyed watching that, yes. We get one more Bret vs. Austin match that looks like it was supposed to serve as the bridge to the eventual Austin win towards the end of April. Bret re-unites the Hart Foundation and it's another incredible promo. That investment by Vince sure looks like it is paying off. The Harts are in possession of all the gold except for one, the WWF Title. Bret wants that one and while he's chasing that, the rest of the Foundation is cementing their status as the elite of the WWF. Austin ends up winning the tag titles off of Owen and Bulldog with Michaels (because we can't have this without him). Tag titles around this time are screwy. No real meaning, just some shit to fill shows with and get potential singles matches teased as tags. Austin and Michaels are the only ones who can get one over on the Foundation. You tend to believe Bret when he presents Owen and Bulldog in the favorable light he does. They do great work when it's their time to shine. The ten man tag in Calgary is all kinds of great. The crowd keeps it at least good throughout. Bret vs. Austin to start it off was a blessing and a curse. It gets the crowd molten hot, but when guys like LOD are in the ring things tend to go downhill fast. Neidhart should have worked Shamrock at some point. Pillman, Bulldog, Owen, Bret and Austin are on fire all match. Shamrock holds his own for the most part. Owen making the run from the back was a mark-out moment for me. Match ends exactly the way it ought to with the Foundation on top in Calgary. Here I want to point out two things. Shawn's promos are 100% insufferable. I can't stand listening to the guy talk. He's supposed to be a babyface, but he's such a jackass. And the Hart Foundation are the dominant force in the WWF. They are over everywhere, but as faces outside the U.S. It's such a great, subtle dynamic that is shocking to see from Vince. And Bret is so great at portraying the indignant, holier-than-thou heel. It's almost the role he was born to play. Now the Foundation are up against...the Patriot and Vader. Seriously? That's what you got? Patriot does fine with it and Vader does too, even if he's a bit too giving as a babyface. Harts try to make them look like real threats and keep their own heat, which they actually accomplish. I'd say that's pretty big. And given that Bret has a much talked about clause in his contract for reasonable creative control, I'd say that he would have been well within his right to ask for a bit more. Here we come to July. Owen and Austin have a great match, but Austin's neck gets injured in an unfortunate botch by Owen. By the way, loved how the WWF decided to do slo-mo replays of this just for shock value. Austin had to be pleased by that as well. Here is something I hadn't thought of before, but there is a question to be asked here. Is this the catalyst for Montreal? Vince has to know that the Bret/Austin series can't go on the same way it had already happened. So that being the case, is this where Vince decides that he's got no more use for Bret? We've already seen two guys get over big as faces with more traditional heel gimmicks. So in Vince's mind, does he see that the future is in anti-heroes rather than the Bret Harts of the world? And following that logic, how long does Bret last after his eventual loss to Austin? Does he get shown the door after performing that one last service to the company? Lots of questions and only speculation can answer them. Coming back to one point above, here's about the point where HHH starts coming out with Shawn and doing their schtick. Which is possibly one of the most overblown, overrated and "go away heat" gimmicks I've ever seen. Have I mentioned I think their stuff is awful. If I thought Shawn was insufferable before, he just gets worse. Absolutely ridiculous that this got cheers. Let's fast forward a bit to DX yukking it up while the Nation of Domination, yes that midcard stable, beating up on the Foundation. I have so many problems with this that I need a new paragraph. First and foremost, the Foundation has been dominant for the last 4 or 5 months. Now the Nation, a lesser heel stable, can beat them down and send them running with even odds? Again, let's take a look at how Bret was abusing his creative control clause. Take a look at how this plays out. DX trashes the Nation's dressing room, puts up a bunch of Canada stuff and sets the Nation on the Harts. So the Harts are putting over DX and the Nation. Selfish bastards that they are. And DX is putting over DX at the expense of both. You'd think if Bret was a guy to abuse that creative control clause, this would be prime fodder. And during this same time period, Owen loses the European strap to Shawn. Bret does a tainted job to HHH via countout after a Shawn superkick. You know, if I didn't know better I'd say that the booking has turned might against Bret Hart and his guys. Wonder where that could be coming from. Vince very rarely has anything nice to say about Bret on commentary anymore either. The SS match was fine with the hate-fueled brawling and all. Nothing great, but I guess Shawn did give Bret a good shine and got over the heelishness during the heat. It was by the numbers good anyway. The screwjob itself was covered up quite nicely on the broadcast. I guess they didn't think Bret would be as quick to react. Bret spitting in Vince's face was the only clue we got. The next few Raws, Shawn is again completely and totally insufferable. In victory he's gotten worse. The whole midget Bret thing is beyond awful. And I have trouble believing that Vince is out of the loop on this stuff. Vince's interview is a load of garbage as well. I couldn't get through it after a while because of how disingenuous Vince is. Then Neidhart is booked to join DX and get beaten down by them after helping them win a match. Vince and Shawn twisting the knife, anyone? Which is capped off by the "nugget" interview. At least Shawn's jackassery serves a purpose as a heel. As a face it was infuriating because you know he's trying to be a babyface by spewing out nothing but bullshit. At least as a heel he gets boos and there is some kind of retribution, no matter how small. He still has "go away heat", but at least he's supposed to be getting heat. In closing, I'd like to say that I think Bret Hart was responsible for some of what happened. He could have found ways to make the transition smoother. But I think he takes easily the smallest slice of that pie. Vince had motive to get rid of Bret, so did Shawn. The booking leading up to SS sure makes it look like somebody wanted Bret to look bad. And if you're Bret Hart, I think you have a case for a lot of the things you did. Bret made Austin. He wasn't all the way there yet, but he was well on his way when Bret left. And it was because of Bret's cooperation and Austin's own work that he was where he was. So Bret makes a new star for Vince, then gets shit on for a few months and shown the door with a knife in his back. Did Bret's pride contribute to how this went down? Oh yeah, it was a factor. But you can't tell me Vince didn't know what the future of his company was and that Bret didn't have a part in it. What, two or three weeks later they started running the Vince promo about how the WWF was new and improved, not the hokey "good guy vs. bad guy" stuff of old. Given that, how much room was there for Bret and his contract in that setting? Especially since there wasn't going to be an epic SCSA win over Bret. And the other guy in the equation....Shawn. Go away. Forever. I'm still not the biggest Bret fan, but the guy put in a blue collar effort over the last year of his WWF career and got the shaft for it. I'd say we all have times where we were kicking ass and let our pride get the better of us. It's gonna happen, especially in an ego-driven profession like pro wrestling. So I can forgive Bret for that and say honestly that it's a fairly common mistake. But Vince and Shawn's parts in this were not mistakes. They were deliberate and malicious in the way they got a guy out of the way.

I loved this promo because of Bret's conviction throughout. And like most truly great heel promos, there is some truth to just about every part of it. Do the American fans really deserve to be run down that way? Probably not, but Bret has legitimate gripes with everybody else involved and the fans turning on him for it just ppisses him off more. And of course we get Michaels coming out and being as full of shit as ever. If watching October 1996 through April 1997 WWF while knowing about Michaels ridiculous backstage BS doesn't make you hate they guy, you must be a big Shawn fan. I won't hold that against anyone, but as much as Bret was doing everything he could to come off as a douchebag to the American audience while sticking to the facts, Michaels comes off as a douche for the simple fact that he is being the world's most giant asshole at the time. Otherwise, brilliant promo by Bret and definitely one of my favorite I've ever seen.

I thought the match was brilliant. They had been prepping the turn for a little while with Bret getting whiny about what had gone on since his return. It looked to me like Bret ad-libbed the post-match attack on Austin. He saw that he was still getting at least half cheers and made sure he had the majority of the crowd booing him before he left. Amazing match with lot of hate and visceral violence. Austin doing his El Samurai impression was pretty cool. Once Austin starts bleeding it's off the charts great on a level rarely achieved. It's a shame Shawn/Bret is the pairing they chose to go with as Bret's big rivalry in their version of history. Austin/Bret is a far better feud for matches and story.

Magnum vs. Tully Starrcade 85 Hansen vs. Kawada 2/28/93 6/9/95 AJPW Tag I'm pretty sure I'd need more than that to truly make me happy, but those are the ones I'll never give up.

I think if you want to make a big heel at this point in time, you give them the big push as the #1 babyface without the fans getting behind them beforehand. If there is any lesson to be learned from the Roman Reigns fiasco, that's the one. As far as the "shades of grey" deal, I think it could work in a world where wrestling promoters weren't stuck inside their own little worlds. In the post above mine, jcmmnx argues against the idea of the 50/50 characters from a (very popular around here) point of view that wrestling should be good guy vs. bad guy. And I tend to agree with that very strongly. Problem tends to be that most wrestling promoters also have their own idealized view of wrestling that comes out in their promotion when they have the personnel to and finances to do it. Vince certainly does. We know some of HHH's views on wrestling. I'm sure the same can be said for any wrestling promoter anywhere. These people aren't all interested in the most popular trends and ways of leveraging them into characters that appeal to the masses both as faces and heels. It could easily be done with enough people in the organization devoted to watching twitter, facebook, etc. But most of your wrestling promoters are also going to be more traditionalist in their views on wrestling as well. So I agree that given the right atmosphere it is possible. But it won't happen in the WWE for a very long time if my read on HHH is right. That brings up a question though. Let's say HHH has assumed control alongside Steph and the WWE takes a small hit. They can survive, trim some fat, whatever. But what if a promotion comes along that does look very closely at the memes making their way through social media and use them intelligently to make their shows appealing to a much wider audience? If that promotion got any kind of national exposure, would it suddenly become a real threat to the WWE? How would the WWE react, given it's obvious flaws in creative? Would it challenge more traditional wrestling fans to change their mind on what wrestling is? How long before pro wrestling has changed drastically and everyone in the business has to either stick to the traditionalist way of doing things to hold onto the old fans or adapt to get in on the new market?

Here are a few. Masa Fuchi - First time you see him, you tend to wonder what this scrawny guy with no real appealing physical aspects is doing in the ring with the guys he wrestles. Then you watch a few matches and you know. He'll kick a guy's ass and stretch him even if he's giving away 30 pounds. And quite the seller as well. Sort of like a smaller, more technically-minded Tenryu. Yoshinari Ogawa - I honestly think this is the guy right here. Shit strikes besides his enzuigiri. Not a whole lot of juniors style high flying. Not a technical wonder by any means. He's like the Japanese Tully Blanchard with all of the heel stuff magnified. And not near as gifted as far as what he can do in the ring. But he can make you believe that he has a shot of retaining the title against Kenta Kobashi in 2003. Jerry Lawler - If there is a guy who went as long as he did by simply "getting" pro wrestling I'd like to see who it is. In ring he's got all-time great punches, all-time great selling and bumping and....yeah, everything else is average at best. And yet he could still be a draw in Memphis today. Osamu Nishimura - This guy defines "smart worker." Nothing he does in the ring stands out beyond maybe his surprising Euro uppercuts. His selling, ability to lay a match out and ability to work the mat in a compelling fashion are all top notch. But they all tend to blend into the framework of the matches I've seen to the point where you can miss them very easily. Ultimate Warrior - Yeah, I said it. What did he have going for him? A shit ton of energy, a physique and being batshit craaaazy. Somehow it all worked and he ended up in good matches. So the sum total seems greater than the parts. Some more off the top of my head. Gino Hernandez, Buddy Roberts, Carlos Colon, Goldberg, El Samurai, Ryback (hate to say it, but the guy could have been something), Greg Gagne, Raven

Islanders vs. Strike Force 11/7/87 Philly, Tag Straps, 2 referees Tama is great talking trash with the Philly ringsiders. Love the Santana "punch the leapfrog" spot. Second ref is completely worthless on the outside. Great hot tag to Martel. Referees can't stop the brawl and they call it after being shoved down a few times. Great hot tag makes this match well worth your while. Islanders vs. Strike Force 11/7/87 Boston, Tag Straps, 2 Referees Gorilla on hand for the two refs. Guessing this is some other date, but who knows. It's a very similar match to the Philly match, but I thought the heat was better. Really got me amped up for the hot tag and Martel delivers. Real finish to this one and I would call it by far the superior of the two matches. Two referee stip comes into play here. Islanders vs. Strike Force 12/5/87 Philly, Tag Straps Islanders with the ambush to start. Haku fighting back during the shine is a great touch. Tama taking ridiculously snappy armdrags from Tito. That's a pairing that hadn't really impressed before. Martel's punches are all kinds of great in this match. Early match has more of a fight feel than a pure shine, which I like. I'm a fan of the transition from heat to shine as well. Good tag team psychology. Martel is again a spectacular hot tag. Great, great match that is just shy of 10/16 for me.

That was a fantastic piece of writing. Thank you for sharing that.

Islanders vs. Strike Force 9/21/87 MSG Once again, great shine. LOVED Heenan getting his hand stomped twice by Santana after the islanders retreat to the outside. Heat is a lot of fun. Islanders using the tag rope to choke was a nice touch. Martel gets his house of fire, but ends up stalling after a short time. I didn't think this one was as good as 10/16, but I can see why anyone would like it. Great match and well worth the watch! Islanders vs. Strike Force 10/10/87 Philly Spectrum Shine was a little off in this match. Timing just wasn't there. FIP on Martel was incredible. The use of the rope by the Islanders and Martel's selling of the chokes was great. Tama throws in one too many nerve holds for my liking, but Haku saves it right after. Good hot tag to Tito. I'm starting to think that the real money here is in the Tito heat/Martel hot tag setup. The other way works, but Martel as a hot tag is so fired up. Still a great match, but easily the lowest of all of the matches between these two teams for me. Haku vs. Tito Santana 10/22/87 Prime Time Fun brawl from the get-go. Santana starts working an arm. Haku working over Tito for a short while. Then we come to the real reason this match was here Tama looks to interfere and Martel stops it, so we get a double DQ with Strikeforce standing tall. Seems like any singles matches involving Haku are booked more as angles than matches. Good idea for an angle though. SF needs a little something in their favor at this point in the feud, so give them the appearance of getting the better of the Islanders but without handing the islanders a loss on TV. Fun match while it lasts.

There's no saying he couldn't be an announcer or manager or something along those lines. With as over as he is, he may overshadow anyone he represents as a manager though.