dawho5

This was a really, really great opening build. Misawa's early control, the big crash and burn leading to Kobashi's comeback, those are amazing. About the 4th half nelson I start to scale back my opinion of the match. Too many head drops overall, but it actually did work on a storytelling level. Also, Kobashi getting his definitive win over Misawa is huge and awesome moment. I get down on Kobashi a lot, but he worked hard and when he didn't go overboard was an incredible wrestler. This comes in below a lot of stuff for me because of the excessive head drops. I get the downtime late after being dropped on your head that often. This was their best match since 1997 though.

This was really, really good. They start out in standard juniors match style. Then they go to the big legwork that is a huge part of the match until the end. There is some no-selling, but less than you would think. AKIRA is great late, clawing at the ref and leaving him incapacitated long enough to miss the tapout to an anklelock. Ref is back with us and AKIRA BITES KOJI'S KNEE to break an anklelock. Not long after, the big AKIRA splash that has been teased twice hits for a huge nearfall. AKIRA then turns the tables with an ankle lock on Koji. Koji has to dig deep and pulls out the double ankle lock to put away a very game AKIRA. I loved some of the selling in this (Koji selling his face) and the late leg stuff was really, really well done. I'd put this just above the Hashi match that Kanemoto had due to what seemed like some tension between these two in both of their matches I have seen.

Great stuff so far in this post. I for one don't care for the idea that I have to rank and number and organize all the matches and wrestlers into lists of which is the best. I watch the matches to enjoy them at the time. If I do, there's really no point to me in asking myself if this match was more or less enjoyable than some other match or matches I've seen. That being said, there is something to the idea that watching a wrestler over time in different matches and situations gives you a much better idea of their strengths and weaknesses. I'm going to go with the wrestler that popped into my head the instant I read the original question: Kenta Kobashi If you watch his matches from 1993 on, you'll find a lot of different things. For instance, Kobashi is an excellent submission wrestler. He wrenches his holds at intervals, doesn't hang on to one hold in favor of switching to a similar hold and wrenching on that for a bit, then going to another. And Kenta Kobashi working over the ribs and/or back is an absolute joy to watch. His ropes -> knee, ropes -> knee -> Russian legsweep combo is an incredible sequence that I'm shocked nobody I've seen has ripped off. But over time you start to realize that he's not all that great at the when and what of wrestling. If you start looking at his later work, when the Kobashi we all know has emerged, a very clear distinction arises. When he's wrestling Kawada or Taue, his head drops are used when and as often as a head drop ought to be. His no-selling is contained. Then you watch a match with Misawa, who either had no interest in reeling Kobashi in or trusted him enough to not go overboard pretty often. And Kobashi is throwing big stuff out for midmatch nearfalls that don't make a whole lot of sense. You can go even farther to a match with Akiyama. I can remember at least one of those where Kobashi felt the need to hit Akiyama with 3 half nelsons, one of which was used as a near-fall. There is just no need for Akiyama to go through that kind of punishment in order for Kobashi to put him away. It just seems like because Kobashi was the "youngest" of the Four Pillars, he very rarely got to have much say in what went on early in his career. Not only that, but he didn't seem to pick up on the why as the junior member of the match. And later, when it came to be his turn to direct the match that hurt him quite a bit. Without watching years worth of matches from AJPW I wouldn't have seen everything necessary to come to the conclusions that I did. I wouldn't have the perspective of looking back at his days as just a spunky youngster who had to fight his way through everybody's abuse (which was a very entertaining portion of his career). So while I'm not overly interested in codifying exactly where I would put Kobashi or his matches in the grand order of things, I feel very comfortable being able to look at him as a wrestler, see his strengths and weaknesses and know why I found a match of his to be really entertaining or not. It seems like the answer to this question is pretty similar to the answer to the "drawing power as an important aspect of a wrestler" question. You determine it by watching their work (not just in-ring in the case of American workers) over time and seeing how they change, what their strengths and weaknesses are, how they work with varying opponents, how they work from underneath, how they work from above, and any number of other factors that matter to you. The answer is going to be different for all of us, but I think it's important to at least do a good cross-section of their career (thorough research is important) before coming to any major conclusions.

I thought the finish of this helped put over the elbow even more than Jumbo already had. Everybody knew Hansen was a tough dude who liked to brawl. So when you put him away with an elbow, it means something. Also, I thought it drew the line between Misawa putting away somebody who wasn't really a challenge (early Kawada, Kobashi matches) with suplexes and tigerdrivers and how Misawa had to put away somebody who simply wasn't going to let him get his preferred finishers on them.

Yes, let's see a sketch about teeth. That is the title of this episode isn't it? I haven't seen a single thing about teeth yet.

Didn't Monty Python do a similar idea with soccer many years ago?

You also have to look at the way Vince handled a lot of the wrestlers who got big in the territories before he got ahold of them. Martel, JYD, etc. were all made into jokes when they finally came over to the WWF side for the money. I don't know exactly why, but Vince seemed to have a thing for trashing big acts that he didn't personally make into stars.

I tend to take the RF viewpoint when I watch wrestling. I could care less if it made money, do I enjoy it? And were I to make a GOAT list, Toshiaki Kawada would be number 1 without any question at all. But I can completely understand somebody putting drawing power as a very important aspect of being GOAT. I can also see it if you were to look at a wrestler's career and try to judge how successful they were. If they were put in a position to draw a lot of money and didn't, I perfectly understand holding that against their wrestling career. It's the reason the promoter put them out there. So yes, in some cases, it is an important metric. However, as Matt D and Dylan Waco have suggested, there are a lot of factors underlying the amount of money wrestlers drew as well as different circumstances involved in each scenario. If you're going to include that as part of your criteria, it's got to be something you look into and try to understand better. Because like all metrics, drawing power can very easily be misused by not truly understanding what the numbers mean in their own context. Or even worse, purposefully misused to support a conclusion that you wanted to reach in the first place.

I think you guys are sleeping on Ogawa vs. Takayama from 02. Ogawa plays a damn good scrappy underdog. And the best part is he doesn't do any flippy style junior stuff and still manages some big nearfalls on Takayama. Otherwise I am in agreement on most of it. Not a Saito fan thus far. Maybe he will change my mind.

No, no. WE'RE the Judean People's Front. It's the People's Judean Front. Splitters.

I think one thing missing from this discussion is the separation of what you or I, the fan, enjoys in the ring or on the mic from the reason this question seems to have been asked. If I'm looking at this, this isn't a question of somebody watching (we'll stick with this example) a Sting match or a few of them and then saying to themselves, "I really liked those matches, but he wasn't ever a big draw so I'm not so big on them now." This is more from a career restrospective or comparison of wrestlers way of looking at things. More like, did Hogan or Sting have a better career? And, like most here, I would want to say Sting because I personally enjoyed watching Sting a lot more than I ever enjoyed watching Hogan. But if I looked at it objectively, I'd have to go with Hogan because he made whatever company he was working for at the time far and away more money than Sting ever did. And that is the entire reason the business exists. Sure other factors come into that sort of discussion, but drawing is a pretty huge part of it given the importance of how much money a wrestler brings in to A. the wrestler and B. the company. Talking about the matches and wrestlers I personally like, however, I could more or less give a shit about how much they drew. I just know I enjoy them for what they were. But I don't think that is what is being discussed here.

Since when did people start defending Scott Keith here?

From reading through this it seems like a lot of it is very sentimental in terms of how people are viewing this. not a criticism, just seems like that reading it. Might be that it's difficult to address this topic without that coming up.

Pretty good match. For whatever reason, Kanemoto plays the (not really a face, but) face-in-peril for the only heat segment of the match. And it works to a degree. When Liger comes in and starts beating on Kikuchi to the point where you know a tag can be made the boos are LOUD. Otherwise, very chaotic, hate-filled brawl. The finish builds on top of the tag match in NJPW from August 2002. Might make somewhere between 50 and 75. Might not. There's better Liger vs. Kikuchi matches in 02.

Not near as good as the other NJPW vs. NOAH tags. Gedo has an awesome frog splash though.

As far as spotty lower-tier juniors go, I'll take Naruse any day over Kanemaru. He works this great grounded headlock on Kikuchi early that I really, really loved. And he has nice, smooth, almost Minoru-like ability to chain into different holds from things. His strikes need work, but he's entertaining. Kanemaru used a top rope diving DDT as a transition to offense. Kikuchi vs. Damurai is pretty damn good, very gritty and more in an older style of puroresu that I really dig. It's not as good or as heated as Liger vs. Kikuchi, but I doubt much NJPW has to offer will be. This will probably be just short of the cut due to the crap finish, but it was a lot of fun up until then, for the most part.

Hayashi is the strawberry blonde incarnation of the bland masked wrestler from KDX, Hiryuu. And he's just as bland with the bleached rudo hair and middle fingers. Hirai is an old school All Japan type guy with nice suplexes and power moves that lack snap. Given time and the right environment (which I doubt he gets, given who gets over in 2000s Japan) he could be something. Tenryu's interactions with both members of the other team are incredible. Kojima is still a step behind the old man. And Hayashi...well, Tenryu really wants to hurt Hayashi. He tosses a chair right at his face on the outside at one point. Then while Tenryu is pinning Kojima late, Hayashi stomps on his head. Tenryu gets up and gives him this look as if to ask, "Haven't you learned yet?", then proceeds to destroy him yet again. Hayashi gets a revenge dive just as Kojima pins Hirai. This was all sorts of fun for the Tenryu vs. young blond-haired fancy guys aspect. It'll be somewhere in my bottom 50, probably in the 50-60 range.

Only reason to watch this is Shiga vs. Akiyama. Saito is so very awful here and drags this down to the point where I don't think it's gonna be on my ballot. Shiga is insanely good though, especially against Akiyama.

Great, great build up until about midway through the finishing run. Misawa really puts Takayama over as a huge threat and Takayama sells when he needs to. Not sure if Misawa, Takayama or both started blowing a lot of the spots, but there were at least 4 over the last 8 to 10 minutes. Still loved the first 3/4 of the match and it'll probably make my ballot somewhere in the lower 50.

I'm probably gonna be in the minority here, but I loved this match. Ogawa gets a brief (very) shine before Takayama tosses him off on a cover. And starts beating him mercilessly. Ogawa turns things around and finds a weakness, and exploits it to the very very very fullest. Takayama gets the crowd believing Ogawa can put him away after a few near-falls, hits a HUGE knee followed by a big German that Ogawa kicks out of, then pulls down the knee pad. Ogawa rolls him up a few times, then eats a massive knee to the face. Kickout again! Takayama is done with this and hits the German for the win. If you can show me another match where a junior gets that much heat for a series of believable nearfalls on a heavyweight (Takayama!!!) all without ANY dive/top rope moves at all, I'd be very surprised. Crowd was tepid for early Ogawa comeback, but by the end they were nuclear hot. This probably makes my top 30. Reminds me a lot of Akiyama vs. Ogawa 9/11/98.

Not much to say about this that's good. Rikio, Morishima and Saito all have some good late match offense. The work on Saito's ribs and most of the selling of it is good. So that's about it. Probably not making my ballot.

This was all kinds of fun. Minoru and Liger turning the tables on Kanemaru with the ball shots was great. Kanemaru getting revenge using Liger's head via drop toe hold was better. The mask ripping and HATE in this match were off the charts. I still think the New Japan rematch in August is better so this won't be getting a vote. But damn is it one great match.

Man, this match was all sorts of incredible. Minoru in peril from the outset rocks. Kanemaru's offense when he's a dick is great. When he gets all flippy floppy it's not. Kikuchi brings the never say die attitude to everything, including holding on to a submission while Liger bodyslams Kanemaru right on top of him! Liger puts on the best camel clutch I've ever seen and Minoru decides a boot to the face is needed to make it better. Minoru aping Kanemaru's mule kick to the groin spot then getting it right back is soooooo fucking great. the Liger vs. Kikuchi finishing run is great in front of a super hot crowd. This will probably be top 10 or 20 for me. Only thing to knock it out of that range is Kanemaru's incessant going to the top.

This could have happened in late 90s ECW easily. I'm confused as to MPro rules, was the ref supposed to ignore the chair being brought into the ring? Togo early on heels it up great. TM4 can't take a pedigree to save his life, so why they did 4 I'm not sure. And how the pedigree sets up the senton is yet another mystery. Some matches I've liked TM4's offense, but it doesn't work well here. Even with him completely noselling the leg. Probably won't make my ballot.

Kanemoto starts out by beating the shit out of Hashi. For a while. Hashi's hope spots are gritty and violent, matching Koji's tone. So is his eventual comeback. The crowd starts to believe that Hashi can pull this off as he gets some good nearfalls. Koji's cutoff attempts get more frequent and he gets his big nearfalls. Hashi gets his last gasp, but Koji's not gonna lose the IWGP Jr. belt to this NOAH punk. Hashi FIGHTS his way out of two ankle locks, but eats Koji's kneelkick thingy for the flash KO and a 3. Finish may seem kinda weak, but Hashi wasn't going to give up and was scrappy about fighting off the tiger suplex. Makes sense that Koji would just go for blunt force trauma to put him away. Hashi comes across as a tough motherfucker with a never-say-die attitude. Also, his offense is spottier than you may think. It doesn't detract too much from the match and this is one of the better singles matches between juniors I have seen in the 2000s. Should make my bottom 50 pretty easily.