TonyPulis'Cap

Allan and Parv, love the show, and always enjoyable to hear some British voices pontificating on all things wrestling. Given we are fast approaching the Royal Rumble, a question I had was around the fields and how many times you thought there was genuine competition/intrigue for who would win? Do you think the older Rumbles have more uncertainty going in for who might have been the winner than the modern ones? Which era do you think had the more predictable fields? I'm actually really excited for this years as there is a really strong lineup on paper and a few different routes they could potentially go down. If you look back though - and from your period the 1995 Rumble particularly stands out - that was just so obvious Shawn was going to win. Even taking away what people may have 'known' from things like the Observer on who was the favourite, in a completely kayfabe way, just look at that 95 field outside of Shawn, and then maybe Bulldog/Luger - The Blu Twins, Jimmy Del Ray, Kwang, Well Dunn, Aldo Montoya... Cheers!

Really enjoyed the show this week - a pretty monumental one when you think of all the stuff that was happening all over the wrestling world at that point. Wrestling is full of 'what if's' but the Finger Poke of Doom is a pretty big one, and I've always wondered where they could've gone, if they'd gone down the route of a face Nash vs heel Hogan rather than what we got. Hindsight shows that there was probably a lot more juice in the streak and Goldberg title run, but if you watch the Starrcade match, Nash is really over coming into the match and there's a pretty sizeable face pop when he wins the match. Given the aftermath and this Nitro is so soon after that match means that isn't really discussed. Nash/Hogan was something that had been teased throughout 98 and while I'm not sure a prolonged Nash title run was the answer to combating the WWF at the time, you do just wonder how things would've played out if they hadn't gone down the finger poke route.

I know that they tend to not want to put too many deceased wrestlers in each year, but what with the launch of the UK Championship next week that could be a nice tie in to have the British Bulldog go in this year if he's on their radar at all. If that was the case I'm sure they could get something agreed with New Japan to have Harry there to accept the award and someone like Bret to do the induction.

After some fairly decent reviews I caught a few of the matches from the TNA PPV on Friday and they weren't half bad. I've been a big fan of Lashley over the last 12 months and felt his match with Davey Richards was really good, where he managed to reign in a lot of Davey's worst tendencies to do everything at 100 MPH. The The X Division 4 way was fun, although as discussed above the division badly needs some new faces - the same 5 or 6 guys have been facing each other in basically every match for the last couple of years - and it would also be good if there were some actual feuds and characters in the division as basically every title match is a multi man match with people all just thrown in randomly. Moose/Bennett was nothing ground breaking, but was enjoyable and had a lot of energy and intensity too it - and miles better than the boring match they had on Impact, and I thought the women's match was also pretty decent. After the Hardys, Lashley and Eddie Edwards, I think Rosemary was arguably the best performer in TNA last year and hopefully they rebuild the knockouts division around her. Like the X Division, that's another area that needs some new blood, although WWE/NXT are sweeping up a lot of the very talented women out there. It's just classic TNA that the TV show they produced this week was so bad, and that the show that probably barely anyone will say ended up fairly good. If what they put on for the PPV had been on Impact last week they would've got a lot more positive buzz. While again, nothing too groundbreaking, there was also a decent bit of intrigue on the PPV about where they go next for a few different characters, but fear that this monster taping, while I can see the economic argument, will lead to the weekly TV getting stale pretty quickly.

Not to just ape everyone else, but Smackdown has really been on a roll ever since the brand split. I couldn't agree more, so many of the storylines feel personal and based in some reality, without it being Russoesque shooting and insider terms. The show has taken guys and girls that seemed very played out, and given them a sense of freshness by letting them tap into their real personalities and experiences. You very much believe Miz when he says people disrespect his toughness or ability, you believe Ziggler when he says that he's always been close but lost the big matches, Nattie when she says she is jealous of the Bella's success etc. And everything is seemingly building logically - ending a WWE show with 3 matches already booked for the TV show the next week is unheard of in recent years, and all are the next logical steps in storyline progression rather than just being thrown out randomly. I will say that I think that RAW has also been pretty decent the last couple of months as well, but I am suffering burnout on the different combinations we've seen of Reigns/Jericho/Owens/Rollins.

Amen, and also gone - hopefully - from the stupid name 'Mandrews' - why not just use his name? An excellent addition to the tournament though, and a guy who was basically wasted in TNA, barely appearing on TV for most of the time they had him under contract.

I'd agree on the goofy fun, but to me it felt pretty disappointing overall. This maybe the fact that I'm from the UK, but sadly this was exactly what I was expecting given the channel that it was on. For those in the US/other parts of the world, ITV is very much a cheesy light entertainment channel in general which, even if sometimes a bit unfairly at times, gets labelled as a cheap and tacky knock off version of the BBC. The look and feel of the WOS show was completely in keeping with the look and feel of pretty much all of their other shows that are on a Saturday night - I was actually a bit surprised they didn't have Ant and Dec presenting or hadn't found a way to incorporate other minor reality TV starts into it somehow. Watching it I really wanted to like it, and the mere fact that there was British wresting on a national channel at a pretty prime spot is incredible in itself, and goes to show how the UK wrestling industry has managed to grow these last few years. About 5 or 6 years ago this was unthinkable. People above have gone into some of the faults they saw, and it's hard to argue too much. JR seemed out of place, and everything was very artificial, which is funny given its a 'fake' sport anyway... for me, the whole random stipulations, having a title belt, a general manager were not what I wanted, but then I can see why they might have thought that was the way to go, given the proliferation of WWE in the way wrestling is seen as being presented. It was sadly never going to be a Progress or a Rev Pro looking show, but I kept hoping it would manage to capture something of the vibe of the original WOS. I think in their minds that's what they were doing; clear good guys/bad guys, nefarious cheating, 'outlandish' personalities - but somehow everything just kind of missed the mark. It was almost - and this sounds more harsh than I'm trying to be - but a bit like a parody of a wrestling show, as if confirming all the cliches of wrestling that the average man on the street might give. As I say, given the channel it was on, the likely audience they were going for, and not really knowing what the input of wrestling people vs TV producers was in putting it together, this was always likely to be the output I thought it would be. It's hard, given those constraints, what they could've done to improve things, but I think having more profiles of the people - where they could've blended some reality with kayfabe - where you got to know more about them would help and some more bits about the old time stars - those clips were the best part. Maybe a tournament format might have helped the overall show and give it a bit more of a consistent feel? For those who remember back to the UK Revival event that was on Bravo back in the very early 2000s, that's what they went for, and while they were clearly playing to a more hardcore audience I thought that format would've worked better. Despite everything above(!) I didn't hate it, but it did leave me cold. I am very happy that great and hardworking talents like Dave Mastiff, El Ligero, Zach Gibson etc get huge exposure and I think that if they knew they had a number of episodes to tell better stories rather than it just be a one off event it would get better, but my underlying feeling was more that I was watching an episode of Gladiators.

This clip was so glorious. As PeteF3 says, tongue is planted firmly in cheek which you don't get too much today, esp. when talking about and referencing the super serious Hall of Fame.

After listening to Don Callis on Jericho's podcast you get the idea they had no idea what to do with him and were jumping all over the place. First he's the manager of the Truth Commission, then Kurgan by himself, then he's on a lectern coming down from the ceiling and now this, all in the space of six months. He's always been a good talker - I liked him as Cyrus in ECW, but pretty much every segment with him in the WWF is not very good. Even when the material might be decent - I quite liked the idea of him being a cult leader for people that society made a mockery of and exploiting them for his own gains, which is I think the gimmick here, but nothing he ever did seemed to resonate with the crowd who just didn't get it or weren't interested.

Glad you've seen the match now Brad, as I said in the ROH thread, this was a brilliant match live and glad it's translated on video. And yes, from memory, I actually thought Scurll might have actually been the better guy in the match. It maybe a British home guy bias, but I like him a lot, particularly the way he is able to engage with the audience. I've seen him live a number of times and he's always one of the most over guys on the card. As i also said in the thread wheere I gave some thoughts on the London ROH show, with that crowd, out of Scurll, Ospreay and Sabre Jnr, Marty is by far the most popular. I can get why a number of people in the thread don't like him though, and even as someone who likes him, his 'schtick' can get a bit much, in the same way it does for a lot of modern performers where everything is ironic and it's hard to get serious angles over. I think his best stuff over the last few years has been in Rev Pro, particularly when he was champion in 2014/15 and really intrigued to see how he does in ROH.

"On the other hand, a terrible production decision was showing slow mo replays of the fucking CROWD after every single fucking spot. Who's idea was that? Fucking ghastly." Just got around to watching the show over the weekend and outside of generally enjoying it, this was one of my big takeaways. Couldn't agree more Jimmy, the cut aways were awful. First off so many were mistimed, so quite often they ended up spoiling what was going on in the match and second they often looked completely disconnected from what was happening, almost as if they were stock footage they were inserting in. It reminded me of back around 2000 when they showed WWF Classics here in the UK on Sky Sports which were generally from the late 80s. Not many had controversial moments, hence why they used them as they were on during the day, but if you did have a moment where a manager interfered or someone hit someone with an outside object they would do a cut away, but it was of a modern crowd - that's what it reminded me of. In a way, I appreciate what they are trying to do - it's a dramatic moment, we want that human reaction, but as is the modern way, you'll get a moment where something bad/sad has happened - like say Becky losing the title - want to find a kid in the crowd distraught, but in the background you have a load of gurning idiots selling the emotion by waving their camera phones around and mugging for the big screen. I will say though at least its cut aways to find fans - the increasing trend in sports coverage is to find a minor celebrity in the crowd and then focus on them constantly. If you watch Wimbledon on the BBC, between every point it's a cut away to the Royal Box to find what a random Olympian or Jimmy Carr thinks of a particular shot. In wrestling it would be nice if they just dimmed the lights like in the old days!

As people have pointed out, saying a single loss "killed" someones career is quite extreme, but the ones that always spring to my mind are all the times that Jeff Jarrett should have lost the title in TNA. Most notable were Raven and Monty Brown, who were both really hot at different times and should've beaten Jarrett but lost in bullshit circumstances. Monty Brown in particular was never really as hot after that and I'm pretty sure ended up turning heel and joining Jarrett the next month (TNA everyone).

Really enjoyed the PPV ranking as this was very much in my era for being all over WWF/E. I did though empathise with your pain when it comes down to the years of 15 PPV's and where your brain loses track of "Hmm, is No Mercy 2004 better than Unforgive 2004...". I think mostly I agreed with a lot of your choices but thought Scott's love for Austin/Taker from SSlam 98 was a bit nostalgia driven. I love that PPV, it's one of my all time favourites, mainly because of the way it flows and the variety in the card, but while the build up to the main event was great, because of Austin's concussion amongst other things the match falls a bit flat. One thing I was thinking about in the era of the shows all blending into one, especially now in the LED Board age, but do you think that the lack of different sets etc has anything to do with not being able to differentiate? For example, people love the Over The Edge 98 main event, but I think a lot of people also remember it fondly for the old cars. Backlash PPV's always seemed to be memorable, in part I think because of the giant swinging metal hooks! I don't know, just a thought I had. You could tell when WCW was on the decline to me when all their PPV's started looking exactly the same in 99/00/01, compared to the crazy fake beach sets and Spring Stampede having random stage coaches and hay bales. Bring back the different sets!

Went to the ROH show in London last night and thought that overall it was a really excellent night and one which I would recommend people check out when its released. I can’t speak for the nights in Liverpool and Leicester, but this one looked easily like a sell out and the building looked more packed than the last Rev Pro show I went to in the same building a week or so ago. I’m not sure what non ROH shows typically look like, but my mate and I were really impressed by the production values – the big screens, lighting and sound were really professional – far more than when we saw them back in the UK 10 years ago – and you did notice the step up in quality from a Rev Pro event, who in themselves make their shows look really good in the York Hall. The big news is obviously Scurll beating Ospreay for the TV Title. It’s a result that I’m sure a number of people around here won’t have enjoyed, as I know that quite a few don’t like Scurll’s schtick but the crowd were absolutely molten for the match and for him winning. I have not heard a crowd so loud and into a match in a packed venue like that, and I really think that, as this will be something a lot of people in the US see, the crowd were keen for them to come across as superstars. It wont be for everyone’s tastes, and I would have to see what it looks like on VOD to get a better handle, but live, this was an incredible match, that people seemed legitimately exhausted for. It was nuts. So much to recap so I won’t even try, but one sequence of Ospreay flipping and moonsaulting while Marty kept moving was amazing to watch. As I say, it wont be to everyone’s tastes, but I thought it was an amazing match and the reaction Scurll got when he won was fantastic. Having seen all of the three key UK guys this past two weeks – these two and ZSJ, Marty is the one that the crowd in London is behind. Whether it’s ring work, personality or presentation there are sections of the crowd who get on both Ospreay’s and ZSJ’s backs, while Scurll is the clear hero, even if he is playing the villain. Intrigued to see if the two title changes to UK guys was just to pop the tour or if Scurll will get a run with the belt. The Briscoes, Young Bucks match was equally nuts live and they tried for an ending where it kind of seemed like the Briscoes might have won the belts but I think everyone in the building knew that it was non title. There was obviously tons of ‘movez’ in this match, and while I could’ve done with a bit more a heat sequence at some point, it was another amazing spectacle of a match that I enjoyed a lot. The only two bits that took me out a little were Matt Jackson kicking out of both a Jay Driller – which used to be a really protected move in an age of finisher kick outs – and also a top rope assisted crucifix bomb where I thought he had broken in half from my angle. Again, will be interested to see how this comes over on rewatch. The main event was decent but suffered from an exhausted crowd after the Scurll/Ospreay match and I think unfortunately the crowd had started to wander off mentally at that point. I know a lot of people – myself included – have a problem with modern crowds being smarky, but I thought the crowd was awesome all night and into everything…apart from the last match. Whether it was just because it was getting late or the lack of a come down between the TV title match but there was a disconnect between the story they were trying to tell of Lethal having his leg worked over and emotionally trying to get his title back and three drunk morons in the balcony trying to get a ‘Delete’ chart over. Thankfully they didn’t. The ending stretch was really hot though and there was a great moment where Lethal goes for the Lethal Injection but his injured leg just crumples and he collapses. Cole also finishes him with a brutal combination of moves which makes Lethal look pretty strong even in a clean loss. One final thing was the finishes – all clean. I know people have had some issues with finishes of their PPV’s or on TV, but at this show everything was clean and there was no interference in any of the matches – it was refreshing and nice return to the ROH of old. Is this the norm for people who see their live events for VOD? Overall, a really good show with great energy from everyone involved, all backed by a really loud crowd. Would be keen to hear from anyone that went to the Liverpool and Leicester shows to see how they compared.

Such a short spot, but really good compared to the 'magic camera' that comes in later in the year and that we still have now. At this point they were still finding reasons for the camera to be there and it makes everything feel way more authentic. Vince's reaction to the camera (and Kevin Kelly) being there is fantastic.

Went to Night 1 of Rev Pro's Global Wars at the York Hall on Thursday and thought it was a really good show overall - in particular Hero/Shibata was brutal in a completely good way. Took the wife with me as well as a few others who had never been to a wrestling show before and they all really enjoyed it. Some of the intricacies and backstory passed them by, but it shows that if people go to live wrestling and leave preconceptions at the door, they can have a great night out. Just gutted that I couldn't get to Walthamstow the next day (not only because I used to work in the town hall next door) as that was meant to be another great show. Next Sunday off to the ROH show in London, which I'm really looking forward to. 10 years ago we went to see Unified in Liverpool headlined by American Dragon and Nigel McGuinness and so we will see how this show compares all this time later. There will be a few overlaps with the British Indy scene, now that Ospreay and Scurll have signed deals with ROH, but super excited to see the Briscoes live.

Last week's NXT was a bit different, and it's always nice when a show changes the formula up. Having some control centre type links between the matches, and cutting to different venues made it more like a sports highlights show and it was a nice change of pace. It was fun getting matches from the shows in California and it would be cool if in the future they sometimes throw in a match recorded at other venues, as some of the buildings NXT runs can be quite quirky and different. One of the things that makes RAW and Smackdown seem quite stale at times is that every building looks exactly the same. The Dusty Rhodes tournament has been a bit bizarre though this year, as on this show - and the Aries injury couldn't be forseen of course - you had one team advancing through winning a singles match, and then another, which was highly anticipated being a forefit with the Revival dropping out. Gutted we didn't get more of Aries and Strong in the tournament mind. I thought the two matches we did get were pretty good though, particularly the Authors of Pain against Swann and No Way Jose. I liked that as Jose is a big guy he was able to dish it out to the AOP before succumbing. The other match was a bit of a styles clash but again fairly enjoyable. Neither match was a classic of course, but both were solid and it's good that the four teams in the semi's are all 'proper' tag teams after last year's final was between two teams of singles guys put together for the tournament.

The Triple H/Kurt Angle/Stephanie love triangle is a great shout - it may not have been to everyone's tastes but that was fantastic soap opera. As it's wrestling it was campy and over the top at times, but it managed to play off real emotions, and got to the point where the crowd was on HHH's side, as even though he had been the No. 1 heel in the company for the past 10 months or so, everyone saw Angle as this guy trying to have an affair with his wife. They'd even, whether intentional or not, set the table way back in Dec 99/Jan 00 where Steph was looking out for Kurt when HHH kept trying to end his unbeaten streak, in little back stage bits which were really subtle. There were lots of twists and turns which were able to be weaved into wider storylines involving the title and where you could identify with what was going on. It also worked in that you had lots of other characters involved that would come in and out of the story with people like Foley, Trish, Lita, Vince, Shane, The Rock, The Hardys, Jericho all playing a part. Indeed it had all been built so well that Unforgiven 2000 should've been a really intense grudge match where Stephanie turns on HHH, and joins Kurt who then becomes an incredibly hot heel to feud with a face HHH, which the fans were ready to jump on board with. Of course, none of that ever happened and the angle fizzled out to where Steph ended up managing Angle when he won the title, but then not for very long and she was back with HHH by the end of the year. Massively disappointing.

"Novel, but very disappointing. Too bad." Sums it up very nicely. In my head, having not seen it in about 12 years, I had some strange memory of this being a match along the lines of the Miz vs Jerry Lawler at Elimination Chamber 2011, where the veteran was able to roll back the years, but this was just plain bad. The fact it goes around 20 mins doesn't help, as even Styles bumping as if his life depended on it can't make it intriguing at any point. It's a strange historical curiosity, but sadly nothing more. For a better use of Dusty, around this time he was involved in some six man tags with AMW that are pretty fun and where he was just able to come in and deliver a few elbows, but one on one title matches were well past him at this stage.

Doesn't really fit with the theme and title of the thread, but a small amount of praise for TNA, in that I just watched last weeks Eddie Edwards/Bobby Lashley title match and as I have done with all their previous matches over the last few months, really enjoyed it. I would never have put the belt on Edwards, as I think Lashley was doing some really strong work as a dominant champion (taking the belt off him fits better with the thread title), but all the matches have been really decent and they have good chemistry. I think Edwards gets lumped in a lot with Davey Richards as they are a tag team, but he's another guy like Lashley that I think has had a really strong year despite the turmoil all around.

Also, very excited for the Becky vs. Alexa match next week, and hope it gets a decent amount of time. Both have been excellent in their roles and it's nice to have a match where there is a genuine face that the fans get behind and a devious heel that the fans are booing - makes for a dynamic you don't see that much anymore! It being in Glasgow should give it a good atmosphere as well, although lets hope more Celtic fans in the audience rather than Rangers ones if we want Becky to still be the babyface Finally. have been impressed that the memo seems to have gone round that it's pronounced 'Glas-GO' rather than 'Glas-COW' - it's the little things sometimes!

What else could the TLC main event be? There's literally nothing else for SD to headline besides AJ vs Dean. On the one hand, all their matches have been really good...but on the other, they've been good as it was a fresh matchup at the beginning, that they are now at a risk of over saturating (a consistent issue for WWE). Have never been the biggest fan of "have a match, and if you win, you get another match with the same person" but as I say, I've really liked all of them so far, so maybe I shouldn't complain...

Reading TNA's response is even better - trying to spin it as a good thing, as apparently us over here in the UK have been up in arms for the past 5 years as we haven't been getting Impact until a couple of days later when everything has already been spoiled... As a fairly decent market for them in the past, you'd think they would be trying to get on another channel here but not sure I can think of any that would be obvious. On the wider point of Challenge, they have been a really good partner for TNA in this country and as they are on Freeview, I know at one point they were getting better ratings than WWE due to them being on Sky which you have to pay for. The partnership was also decent for the UK scene as it meant that after Impact you got some British wrestling on TV for the first time in years. I'd be interested to know if there is in any way a small opening for a British promotion to try and get on the channel again... or if dealing with Dixie and co has soured Challenge on dealing with people in wrestling. They have also announced the grand opening of their 'Global Development Centre'. http://411mania.com/wrestling/tna-sets-al-snow-wrestling-academy-as-their-global-development-center/ Before anyone gets too excited about this being the second coming of the Performance Centre this is basically in a warehouse about half an hour or so from where I live in a smallish commuter town on the edge of London. There was a story about it in the local paper where the journalist basically seemed bemused about the whole thing

Great show as ever guys, was really intrigued to hear what you both thought of the Sullivan/Corino/Whitmer angle, as on the latest ROH TV I was watching thinking, "what the help is this??" I really liked the original Corino/Whitmer story they built for well over a year but that Should've ended after their match, Corino winning and then everyone moving on. I'm now completely lost to where this is going. Everything about the angle - from the dialogue, to the acting, to the promos is awful and you can just tell the crowds have no idea to react to any of it. I can actually take a bit of hocus pocus and out there storytelling in wrestling but this turns me off the shows at the moment completely. For all the nonsense at times, at least at the heart of the Undertaker and Kane stuff was the fact that they were brothers with a clear past that they explained as they went along. Yeah it got stupid with flaming caskets and setting camera men on fire with lightning bolts but you could still follow most of the basic elements. With the Corino/Sullivan stuff im completely lost and as Pete said, they have no past onscreen relationship to draw on so none of it makes sense in any way. Even if more of the story did make sense, the acting and lines are so corny that it wouldn't matter.

Inspired by watching AJ vs Low Ki from a couple of weeks before this, I've been going through some of the Styles back catalogue from this time and there is a lot of really fun matches, with a number of different opponents. He has a series with D'Lo Brown the month or so before for example that is pretty good. This is another example, as AJ and Raven have really good chemistry. The opening where Raven wants to keep throwing him to the outside, as that's where his strengths as a brawler will come into play, and AJ knowing that and doing everything to get back inside is really well done. That is highlighted by Raven finally getting him out of the ring and hitting multiple leg sweeps into the guardrail. In general AJ's bumping makes Raven look really good, and I remember that this 2002-04 period was a really strong one for Raven where he was arguably as good as an in-ring competitor as he would be in his whole career. As ever it suffers from multiple bouts of interference, as Raven was in the midst of a feud with James Mitchell and Shane Douglas that includes the brutal hair vs hair match not long after this. One thing you notice actually in watching a lot of AJ's title matches is that at some point Russo always seems to be taken out - for example in this one the Gathering, including one CM Punk carry him away - but just as you get excited that will mean a straight one on one match, there is another steady cast of characters always available to provide interference which is a trope that TNA never really seemed to ever get away from.