ohtani's jacket

I'm pretty sure I've seen piledrivers under sold in European wrestling, but Finlay's tombstone piledriver routinely knocked folks out and Marty Jones, Mark Rocco and Ken Joyce, among others, used piledrivers as finishers.

I think you have La Parka end Goldberg's streak, finish the NWO once and for all, lead the invasion, and unify the world heavyweight titles.

I'd take Bret's sit down locker room interviews over Cena's raps any day of the week. Bret's delivery wasn't the greatest, but he always chose his words carefully. Does Cena even have a famous promo? I'm mostly familiar with his promo work from pre-match hype videos and I've seen anything that came close to the pre-match interviews for Bret/Diesel at Survivor Series '95. Add to that Bret's heel work, including the famous mic spot where he snapped, and it seems like a no contest.

I watched that Rude/Chono G-1 bout a few times (in various states of inebriation it should be said) and finally it worked for me. I'm not a fan of fish out of water scenarios in wrestling, but the NWA title still meant something to the Japanese audience at the time and it had tremendous heat even if the fans' reaction towards Rude veered a bit too much toward pantomime at times. Masa Saito's translation of Rude's promo reminded me of that scene in Lost in Translation with the interpreter. Thinking back on this it's a wonder I liked it. The clotheslines didn't look that great, Chono's selling was pretty lousy, and the matwork was mostly boring submissions and blatant rest holds. But somehow the bits in between worked and there was a gravity to it with Dusty and Watts there and all the New Japan big wigs. I don't think Rude came away looking better for having had the bout, but at the same time it was miles above any of Ted's work in Japan.

They weren't any of those things when they started, though. You think Rocky Maivia demanded a main event push?

Austin, Rock and Foley were midcarders put on top too.

This is from '98:

Backlund came from a legit amateur background and had a completely different style of working. There's that weird promo before one of the Adonis matches where he equates working a match to baking a cake, so let's call it a cake baking style. He worked a slow build style adding more and more ingredients or layers to the mix. I don't think Cena is anywhere near as slow or deliberate. Jerome says he's the best possible Hogan, but I think he may be a better Sting.

Isn't he playing to his strengths, though? Surely he works the way he does because his stuff looks better this way. Do you mean to say he could be better technically if he were less interested in symbolism?

That's a good question. As you're probably aware, '87 is a year I've ignored in the past and am only beginning to fill in through Arthur Psycho's channel. van Buyten is the front runner at this point. European worker of the year is a great concept. Maybe I'll have a go at 1974-1991.

I'm down with Jack Kirby splash pages and comic book wrestling, but how much credit do you give a guy for compensating for his limitations by being larger than life?

Wouldn't that make him the best in the world? EDIT: Nevermind, I thought you were talking about the Northern Hemisphere.

Bret's character worked best when he had a chip on his shoulder like at Survivor Series '95, post-Wrestlemania XII and the '97 heel turn. If Montreal had never happened, I assume we get the Hart/Austin rematch at Wrestlemania XIV and then they phase him out of the title picture as he begins to break down. I reckon he leaves anyway since Russo would have probably tried to give him some gimmick he couldn't live with. I suppose a face turn may have occurred, but I doubt he would have been happy being positioned at the IC or Euro title level ala someone like Ken Shamrock. Wrestlemania XIV feels like the end of the road.

I dunno about this. Bret built up a mythos around himself that he was a working class guy in a world of seven foot giants and four hundred pound monsters who overcame the odds because he was the best at what he did; the Wayne Gretsky of wrestling that the coal miners and the lumberjacks could relate to. And the thing was that he believed it. That's what made his heel turn so brilliant because blurred the lines between scripted TV and his legit bitterness. The problem is that he wasn't that gifted a performer in terms of charisma or projecting a presence, which means even the big title wins are more downbeat than you'd expect from a truly beloved performer. He was popular and had a following, but when Austin and Rock came along they eclipsed him in terms of star presence. A lot of Bret's stuff has some nice subtlety to it even if it's a bit boring to revisit. I'm sure a Cena fan could break down his character better than I can, but I think Bret is a bit underrated when it comes to persona.

Neither guy is that good technically, but they've both got reps as big match workers and are popular in online circles.

Backlund and Cena are worlds apart as workers. The real comparison (in my mind) is Cena and Tenryu.

Casas, Dandy, Panther, EHDS and Satanico I think most people would agree with. Panther is probably the weakest of that group as there are stretches of his career I don't particularly like, but as a wrestler he is more skilled than Atlantis. As a performer, Fuerza is probably better than Atlantis, but if you stacked the best of Atlantis up against the best of Fuerza I'd say it's pretty even. The same is true for Morgan and Emilio. They're in a tier of workers who look good in trios matches but don't have as many memorable singles performances. Morgan's peak on tape is short and Emilio was never the greatest singles worker. Pirata and Fuerza were better apuesta workers than Atlantis, but I think the Panther matches are better than any title bouts I've seen from those rudos. Having said that, Fuerza was carrying guys like Misterioso and Octagon. Still, I'd have them pretty even and mostly at the same level. Solar I could see being better than Atlantis if we had enough footage to go on. I always envision Atlantis being in the same lineage as guys like Solar and Lizmark (i.e. classic masked tecnicos.) A few more title bouts from any point in Solar's career prior to the Navarro series would cement it in my eyes, but like Villano III there is a footage issue. If you take the Villano III footage at face value (i.e. what we have) then it's not better than Atlantis' stuff. Reinvented Negro Navarro (circa 2006) is one of my favourite all-time workers. Based on skill level he blows Atlantis away. But there's no way it's a long enough or strong enough run to put him over peak Atlantis. Terry is the same. On talent both might make my top 10, but if Atlantis worked the maestros circuit more then he might have a whole extra layer to his work as well. It's kind of hard to punish him for having a thirty year relationship with the same company. Chicana doesn't have enough footage and would need someone to properly re-evaluate his 90s output for me to consider him better than Atlantis unless you're talking about presence or charisma. Virus has a whole chunk of his career no-one pays attention to between his minis work and his latter day title match rep, but again appears to have more natural wrestling ability. Parka is kind of the opposite; not as much wrestling ability but a better brawler. Fiera is a guy I'm starting to appreciate more, but as a sleazy rudo and apuesta match worker and not really based on technique. I would be tempted to put the tiers like this: Casas, Dandy, Panther, EHDS and Satanico Atlantis, Fuerza, Morgan, Emilio Navarro, Terry, Solar, Chicana, V3, Virus Fiera, Parka If it were based on wrestling skill the order would be different: Satanico, Dandy, Navarro, Panther, Solar, Virus EHDS, Casas Atlantis, Fuerza, Emilio, Morgan, V3 Fiera, Parka, Chicana, Terry

A lot of those seem like clear wins to Bret for me. It seems like there's a dividing line between people who've stopped watching the product and people who've continued, though perhaps that's stating the obvious.

The problem was that the Beauty Pair and Crush Girls had been generational. The Beauty Pair lasted from 1976 until 1979 and the Crush Girls from 1984 until 1989. The Matsunagas didn't want to wait another five or six years for a idol team that may not have eventuated. Without the Crush Girls they were at the mercy of Fuji TV with no guarantee of returning to prime time. For a while they tried to create new idols, but eventually they decided to focus on the male puroresu market, and from memory, Rossy Ogawa pushed hard for a greater focus on video production rather than trying to reclaim a prime time TV spot. I guess they didn't forsee the bottom falling out of the male puroresu market, although their debt was so enormous in the end that they probably wouldn't be around no matter what approach they took.

I'd go with Bret. I don't think he was that naturally talented, to be honest, and also worked his way up through the business getting better as he went along, but mostly I struggle with the notion that Cena is a great worker. Even if you argue about his volume of work, he's working at a time when it's easier than ever to put a body of work together. Bret was trying to do the fighting champion gimmick in the early 90s with a vastly inferior roster. If he was around today, I have no doubt he'd make the most of the environment and have a Bryan-esque body of work. In fact, he'd probably shine in the modern environment with its focus on clever spots and continuous moments to a match since he was one of the first guys to add more nuanced spots to the WWF house style like the corner post figure four and so on.

Regarding Atlantis' selling in the Satanico and Faraon bouts, I don't particularly like it either, but it's worth noting that it's from his first two years doing the gimmick and that we don't have a lot of footage from other lucha great teething years. I would also argue that there are times when the other lucha greats have had embarrassing selling such as rudo Blue Panther. Far worse are Atlantis feuds such as the Kung Fu and Mano Negra ones during a period where he was barely post-prime. The latter was especially disappointing. That work during the CMLL dark years really sucked. EDIT: The Kung Fu feud wasn't even post-prime. I just felt like emphasising how bad it was.

I managed to find the list with some random googling: Casas, Dandy, Panther, EHDS, Satanico, Fuerza, Pirata, Virus, Terry, Navarro, Fiera, Charles Jr., LA Park, Chicana, Solar, V3 Worth discussing.

And that's why we should always have our Spamish speakers around to explain everything.

Jim Breaks vs. Jackie Robinson (8/30/72) This was probably the most technical Breaks match I've seen at least during the first few rounds where they spent a large amount of the time on the canvas. After Robinson took the opening fall, Breaks started backing away a bit and adopted a more defensive approach looking to counter his way into the Jim Breaks special. He really was supremely fit in his younger days with a great physique for a lightweight. During this era, he used to go on cruises and would come back with a full body tan. Walton was somewhat fixated by it and mentioned it about five or six times. There was a bit of banter from Breaks and a few of his old tricks like checking his shoe laces to fool his opponent, but for the most part he was serious about beating Robinson. Robinson had only been a pro for a few years at this point (since the spring of '69, I think), but didn't really look like a youngster. Nevertheless, this was closer to a stock Breaks vs. youngster match than Breaks against a leading contender. For that reason it was a tad lopsided once Breaks overcame the early deficit, but prime Breaks is nothing to sneeze out and man do I wish we had his entire 70s catalogue.

THE ARTHUR PSYCHO HOUR Ep 7 Johnny Kidd vs. Jim Fitzmaurice (4/8/87) This was cool. Jim Fitzmaurice was a diminutive Irishman who could really go and Kidd opted to use more of his mentor Ken Joyce's style than he usually showed in the waning days of ITV. It only lasted three rounds (I suppose because Fitzmaurice was a vet filling in for a younger wrestler who couldn't make the card), but it hearkened back to a time when wrestling this skillful was common place, and if I were to make a comp of the best stuff post-WoS, I would certainly tack this on. Walton mentioned that Fitzmaurice was brought into the business by Bert Assirati, which is interesting. Ken Joyce was the ref, which also added to the spectacle. Wish it gone longer, but a pleasant surprise nonetheless. Battle royal (7/3/86) I don't usually watch battle royals, but this was only a few minutes long and from 1986 so I thought it might be interesting. I was rooting for Studs Lannigan, and if not him then Black Jack Mulligan, who took great delight in beating people up on the outside. The finish came down to "Farmer's Boy" Greg Valentine and Bernie Wright in his Bearcat Wright persona. The promoter's boy took it out, and I'll tell you what, the nepotism dripping from Brian Crabtree's fangs could have burnt a hole in the floor. Giant Haystacks vs. Tony St Clair (Caernarfon, taped 3/14/89) So, it was Tony St. Clair's turn to take on Haystacks, and I guess it was a credit to his standing in the business that it was far from inglorious. He got to put up a fight before his night was over. The Welsh kids loved Haystacks. They were throwing all sorts of shit at him and hurling obscenities then he feigned charging at them and they ran a mile. Talk about getting your money's worth. Stax had the occasional good match over the years. This wasn't the best I've seen, but it was above average. Billy Reid vs. Blue Buchanan (Pontardawe, taped 4/4/89) More boy wrestling. I've got to say the boy wrestling in Reslo was vastly superior to the boy wrestling on ITV, I suspect because these guys went out there and tried to work an indy style match as opposed to Mountevans rules. Reid (or Reed as some matchlists spell it) even did a plancha. Surprisingly good match if you can appreciate young guys doing the basics and putting in some good minutes. Superflies (Ricky Knight & Jimmy Ocean) vs. Gary Clwyd & Tony Stewart (Cardiff, taped 3/30/90) Indy level tag wrestling this. Really rough around the edges. Both teams had garish looking tights, though in the Superflies' case it was deliberate. They were trying hard to have a good match, but it seemed like they were tape watchers and not guys learning strictly on the job. King Ben vs. Ritchie Brooks (Caernarfon, taped 4/6/90) Brooks had a horrendous mullet here and looked like a British Crush. He was doing a heel gimmick, which I don't remember him doing on ITV, but then I skipped a lot of Richie Brooks matches. Ben looked well and truly middle-aged. Pretty innocuous squash.