El-P

The same. Cringe as fuck. Also, in the real world where no one knows what "The Man" refers to in pro-wrestling folklore, a woman calling herself The Man because she's the champ sounds dumb and misogynistic as hell !

That joke is even better now that they use Pantera as their opening.

The Ratings Slaya'

That's an interesting point. There's no doubt that match was the ultimate star maker for Micheals. I believe he would have been pushed anyway (he main evented Survivor Series 92 against Bret, something that is somewhat forgotten), but the ladder match was the eye opener to this guy having the potential to be a big star and being a one of a kind worker. And it was indeed the very first "Kliq match", with Diesel at ringside at the beginning. That being said, the guy Vince wanted to push to the top at this point was clearly Kevin Nash (he won the IC belt a few weeks after Mania then worker against Bret at that disastrous KORT show, which was already testing the waters for what was about to come).

They switched to the blue bars for Hogan vs Bundy at WM2 I believe. Because you know, Hogan, escape rules...

Not at all. Definitely very influencial. But most matches after TLC looked like the first TLC match rather than an actual, well constructed match like Razor vs Shawn (there were some exceptions like Benoit vs Jericho early on). And basically the gimmick became a recurrent thing in WWF/E during and after the Hardys/E&C/Dudleys feud. Like you said it was more than four years, which is pretty long actually, between Razor/Shawn 2 and the next ladder match in WWE. You only had one in WCW at Souled Out and probably the Stairway to Hell in ECW (unless it came after the first Hardys vs E&C, don't remember). The Money in the Bank match is basically TLC. And last fall, Young Bucks vs Lucha Brothers pretty much had the best and most spectacular match of this kind, ever, almost 20 years after TLC made it legendary.

Of course, but in term of importance in changing things on a wide scale, to me the impact matters more than the precedence (is that a word ?). Which is why even though Tiger Mask vs Dynamite did not indeed invent junior wrestling and guys like Fujinami and Gran Hamada were already having great lucha-infused matches in the late 70's, it was Tiger & Dynamite that made the real big-time impact. As far as big-ass clusterfuck stuntmen ladder match, TLC is the most impactful match of the genre to me.

Well, except the matches that got those insane star ratings were all insanely successful for the audiences for whom they were worked (thinking about the NJPW matches or lately the AEW tag-team match). So maybe the aim of epic star ratings (which honestly strikes me a kinda ridiculous especially when you're talking about Japan) actually produces insanely great and successful matches for the audience. In which case, the whole thing is a moot point.

Totally agree. Shane & Francine was an awesome pair. The only one I'd even put in the same category, although in a completely different style is Savage & Sherri. But Shane & Francine together were monstruous heet-seekers. The promos were awesome, the intro was perfect, Francine was a terrific valet (honestly I put her against anyone), she wasn't afraid to bump hard and show ass (well, literally) and Shane was great in getting her involved the best way possible. This is neither here nor there, but you gotta love the fact Francine seems like an adorable person IRL (from the interviews she did the last few years). I kinda got that feel back a bit when Cody & Brandi were working heels a few years ago, maybe that's why I became interested then (as Cody in WWE was exactly zilch to me).

Agreed. Not to mention, Lucha Underground is also what brought back a new, updated version of studio wrestling. I don't think there's NWA Powerr without Lucha Underground either. Yes and yes. Although I'd say TLC was even more influencial, really. And this goes back to ECW, really. The Rock vs Mankind (awful) match being basically a rehash of Shane Douglas vs Cactus Jack.

Well, can't counter that argument I guess when the president of the United States is Donald Trump. About the point you're making though, there's probably a whole lot to say about Jim Cornette and SMW and why this stuff worked then because how where he promoted and how.

Yeah. But no, thank you. (seriously, there's probably a hundred guys I'd rather see in the G1)

Well, Meltz says that basically, this is the match that convinced Tony Khan that something could be done in the United States, so yeah. May be the most important match of the last 20 years when all is said and done.

Agreed. When I mentioned Eddie vs Dean earlier on, it was in reference of the contemporary US scene. And Eddie vs Dean, like it's been said, is basically an upgraded (barely, honestly) version of Tiger Mask vs Dynamite. When you realize Tiger Mask ended up being part of the first UWF and helped creating japanese shoots-style, which basically also leads to more or less to MMA, Satoru Sayama may be considered the most important pro-wrestler ever (of the modern era, meaning the last 40 years).

So, Meltz mentioned Mansfield was actually genuine in wanting to make things better, just awkward doing it by speaking like a pro-wrestler and doing stuff like showing the blade to mainstream medias who were only interested in the stupid "real vs fake" issue, which was a moot point anyway at this time (I don't believe for one second that a third of people watching pro-wrestling in the mid 80's thought it was real, sounds like complete bullshit to me, and surveys aren't reliable at all anyway).

I believe I coined the term Self Conscious Epic about Cena vs CM Punk in 2011 (SummerSlam, right ?), but these two matches certainly were the template. I remember not being nearly as hot as everyone else on those two matches back then, but I was much more removed from current pro-wrestling at that point too. I wonder how I would enjoy them today... I also believe they were more Michaels than Taker, although they always worked well together. Speaking of which... "Sorry I love you". For the better and the worse.

Apart from the fact every HITC match had to have a stupid bump from the top of the cage, it really did not change pro-wrestling on a large scale I don't think. Jumping off cages was nothing new. It took it to ridiculous and stupid lenghts, but I don't think it had much on an influence in pro-wrestling as a whole. TLC was much more influencial, because ladder matches with huge stunts became a go-to everywhere in american wrestling after that point. HITC stayed a very WWEesque gimmick only and was used only a few times.

Gypsie Joe, Killing da business. Hilarious spot. He did not even jump nowhere near Kimura. Fucking summersault though, so much more impressive than Girlfriend Killah.

Because everything has to be about the brand. That's their strategy. The Brand is bigger than all, so everything has to rely on the Brand, much like every build for Mania is now about pointing to a sign and have Mania MomentsTM.

I wouldn't be surprised if you found a table spot somewhere earlier than this honestly.

Hum... It was 2002. The endless strike exchange really wasn't prevalent until much later.

Probably, yes.

This.

Totally agree. Plus it's a short listen, it doesn't overstay its welcome. Aubrey is so cool though, she's totally someone you'd want to hang out with, drinking beer and talking shit.

Agreed on both point. And that's coming from someone who *hated* Havoc the first time I saw him doing half-comedy/half-harcore matches with paper cuts spots and stuff. Havoc the actual worker is better than I thought he would be, plus he's got potential as a character and promo, as he showed in MLW when he was paired with Salina de le Renta (whatever happened to her ? Just just vanished from MLW TV and only does the announcing I believe. What a shame.)