El-P

Good luck with that. I'm sure there are some matches on tapes somewhere, as wrestling was pretty big on TV in the 50's I think, but nothing has showed up anywhere so far. I would love to see if there are some Lino Ventura matches on tape. Bon courage pour le français !

I really enjoyed Dan's posts, recommanding matches and giving some explanation about the style. Yet, as I happened to stumble onto Vampiro's matches recently, it came to my thoughts that he and Konnan share some of the same "qualities", being foreigner, sucking in the ring and having been big draws in Mexico in the last decade. So, seeing this is a "Beginner's Guide to Lucha", I though well, why not ask *there* since it's a question about lucha. Silly me. And hell, I even said it was probably a stupid question. I'm pretty sure if anyone asked John in a "Beginner's Guide to All Japan" why Wajima was pushed, or why Gary Allbright didn't worked the same style as the main event guys, he would have gladly answered. But hey, people have to bitch about everything I guess. Don't worry, I won't interfere anymore, I'll just read. I probably had a Canek question somewhere, but I'll think twice before asking.

Well, anyone interested in All Japan and not knowing much about it has the right to ask why Wajima was pushed, yes. Vampiro and Konnan were important figures of 90's lucha, I don't see what the issue is asking questions about them.

Well, it's not the experience I have. Like I said, most good looking woman I hit on were smokers. Hell, I'd say 95% of them were smokers when I think of it. And the one I've been with the last 8 year was a smoker when I met her, and remained a smoker for a few years. The Nature Boy is a heavy drinker, and that's worse than smoking. Women just want to ride on space mountains, and Ric lighting a cigarette won't make him look worse than Ric drinking all night. Chewing and spitting tobacco on a plastic bottle, well, it's another thing. I know if I was a girl, that would gross me out.

Indeed. And now that smoking is pretty much forbidden everywhere, the line "I'm going outside for a smoke, you want to join ?" is pretty good to isolate yourself with the girl you're hitting on I guess.

I don't see in what ways, really. Especially when women smoke as much if not more than guys. Maybe I'm too "european", but I really don't see what the issue is. Hell, I hit mostly on smoking girls at college (pun intended), and back then I was a lot less tolerant with cigarette smoke as I am now. Anyway, the point being, Flair chewing tobacco really doesn't goes along with the Nature Boy image.

Don't think it has anything to do with it. Chewing a gum doens't look very good either. Well, you don't pay attention. I have been with a smoker. I don't smoke, never had. She didn't smell like tobacco smoke. Her appartement didn't either. I didn't mind her smoking around me, even after sex. There are degrees in smoking, and only hardcore smokers really smell bad. Those I couldn't bare. Now, I do agree chewing has one advantage over smoking, is that it doesn't bother the people around. It's more respectful of the surroundings. But like Loss said, Flair and chewing just don't mix. Especially the disgusting wya he was doing it during the interview. Now, he might be a shitty chewer for all I know.

Redneck Flair would have been all kind of awesome.

Hum, no. A good looking lady smoking a cigarette can be sexy as hell. I should no, I've been with a smoker (and I never smoked myself). She smoked half a pack of cigarette a day, and she didn't smell like tobacco. People who do stink tobacco because they smoke two packs a day, well, yeah, it is kinda repulsive to be around them. A guy chewing tobacco and spitting marroon goo in an empty plastic bottle is way more visually disgusting.

Yeah, because you contributed so much in this beginners guide to... wait, oh no, actually you contributed shit there and just come by to be an asshole. So who gives a fuck about your opinion there ?

I just watched a Sabu vs La Parka match from December 2002, and Sabu never cease to amazes me, the more I watch him, the more I enjoy him. I feel like I will never get tired of him, he's rather fascinating and way more fun that just "look the table spot". The "in the moment" is kinda ridiculous, since Sabu was much better in 2000 than he was in 1994, and rewatching stuff with a fresh eye really opened my eyes on him.

So, basically, Vampiro was the Ultimate Warrior, and Konnan was Lex Luger (well, Luger was a hundred times better than Konnan but you get the idea). I though Konnan was still pretty atrocious early on in WCW no matter how many cute lucha spots and submission he would throw out. Vampiro, well, I haven't watched his WCW work for years (and don't think I ever want to look back at it), but what I've just seen in MLW is just eye gouging bad on every aspect. That's about 12 years after he debuted so I guess he never learned much of anything.

This is probably a stupid question, but since it's a beginner's guide to lucha. I understand both Konnan & Vampiro were big draws in Mexico at some point. Now, with the amount of great wrestlers they have, what was the fascination for two north-american wrestlers who couldn't work a lick ?

For me too. I would have never guessed Flair had this habit. Which is, by all account, a disgusting thing. I was picturing Flair smoking cigars, not acting like Black Bart.

The main problem most critics have with that move is the contrived nature of the setup. Wrestlers rarely just happen to fall into that exact position, kneeling down with their arms draped over the middle rope... except in Mysterio matches, where it's guaranteed to happen almost every time. It's kind of a powerbombing-Kidman sort of spot, one which almost never happens except in this one wrestler's matches. Admittedly about half the time the setup involves Rey doing something to specifically plant his opponent there, but people do Just So Happen to fall into perfect 619-ing position a lot when they're facing Mysterio. This. And if that was just one spot out of many, that wouldn't bother me that much although it is annoying (like say, the Sicilian Slice, why people always get in the position to recieve that one from Little Guido, I don't know..., or the godawful Psycosis "opponent his balancing himself on the second rope while holding the third rope waiting for Psico to drop a leg on him" spot), but the fact that it is Rey's marketed and most famous spot in WWE makes it just infuriating to me. Add to the fact it doesn't look like a great offensive move anyway. Cute, yes. Cool looking one in a while, yes. As the obligatory Rey trademarked spot, it's annoying. Well, it's not retarded like the Worm at least.

I cooled off on Benoit before he went to WWF, and stuff like this was one reason why. I cooled off even more watching very early NJ stuff in 2002/03. To be honest, and murder case apart, I would rather watch Norio Honaga vs Liger than Pegasus vs Liger in 1991.

MLW Genesis This really was the first step of ECW nostalgia kicking in. The ECW Arena looks empty and sad though, and the three people chanting MLW ! MLW ! MLW ! kinda sound pathetic. La Parka and Jerry Lynn have a nice little Nitro match. Tayio Kea stiffs the hell out of The Wall, who looks better than during his WCW days. But really, the interesting stuff on the card is all about Shane Douglas vs Steve Corino. They have a great promo exchange which is more compelling than anything on ECW TV since 1998 or so. Douglas is outfranchising himself, dropping f word left and right, but being good at playing the elated veteran coming back to the house he built. Corino's promo here is just awesome, wrapping up the entire history of ECW, Douglas, the NWA title and himself and makes a compelling issue that makes you want to see the match and makes it feel important. Match itself is fine, Douglas is way past his prime but can still work quite a bit. He actually throws some really good punches, which was never his strong point. Corino is just excellent. The booking of the show is just bizarre, as Douglas has to come back right away after winning to face Jerry Lynn, only because the other semi-final will get thrown under the bus later. Douglas vs Lynn is good, but not as good as Corino's match. Douglas can't exactly hang with Lynn as far as quickness goes, but they work a fine match anyway. Lynn hasn't really lost a step since the end of ECW, although he's still a bit sloppy at times especially with his kick to the gut transition into his piledriver. Austin was guilty of the same thing with the Stunner. Rest of the card was really bad as it involved Vampiro. Man this guy sucked. I remember him not being good in WCW, but I didn't realized he sucked so much. Can do a few good spot, throws a few stiff shots, looks like a zombi, can't put together a match to save his life, is really sloppy at times, gasps for air after two minutes. Chris Daniels bumps good for him, so this match was at least watchable, but the Kea match was really awful, as Kea is not a guy who will put a match together either. Then the shitty booking kicks in, the semi-final turns into a 3 man match for whatever reasons, and Douglas wins the belt quickly. Then the stupid NWA belt throwing rehashing angle. Douglas is pretty hilarious here, acting way over the top, you can feel he doesn't take it seriously at all. I think he was done with the company quickly afterward too, working mostly XPW at the time. Well, three good little matches and one great promo battle, not too bad.

Agreed. The Triple suplex spot was ridiculous because it meant nothing. If one can counter the last suplex, it totally negates the impact of the first two. And what does that imply for one simple suplex, it should be no-sold automatically. That's one thing I hated about those guy working WWF style, is that they had to have cute gimmick spots like this as if just being great wrestlers wasn't enough. Of course the worse in Rey's 619.

Ric did much more harm to his own legend than David ever could actually.

Taker doesn't look a day under 60 here.

Jerciho is one of those guy who clearly peaked in WWF/E, even to me who don't like the style. It's pretty obvious. Jericho in the mid-90's had ton of potential. He was a fun spot machine in Japan, ECW and early days of WCW. Then he developped his character and got one of the most fun wrestler on TV in 1998, and was already very good. But he clearly peaked when he got to work big matches in WWF. As far as becoming a star, well, he could have, but we know how he got saddled with Stephy, how HHH worked a horrible match with him at a WM that pretty much killed the idea Jericho was a *big* star. I don't think many other from the WCW crew peaked in WWF though. Eddie had its glory moments, but he was much better back in 1997 and the WWE main event style dragged him down (not much, because he was Eddie). Benoit had his best days in Japan in the 90's. Rey, well, I won't go over Rey again, I know I'm in the minority now thinking lucha/WCW Rey is much better than 619 Rey. Booker T maybe, although I don't think Booker was ever particulary good. Paul Wight I guess too, but that should be a given ocnsidering he was a rookie in WCW after all.

And since I'm feeling nostalgic, here's something that tells how odd the french version of WWF Superstar was. Taker vs Bulldog, during Taker's first WWF championship reign. Apparently, it hasn't been broadcast in the US. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dmV9rX8YtE

I'm just thinking that I saw my first WM card 20 years ago. Flair vs Savage, Hooser Dome. Eddie Carpentier & Guy Hauray on commentary. Time flies.

Brakkus. Looked like another monster. Barely made TV if at all except for getting his ass handed to him by Savio in the toughman deal.

Indeed. Agreed. Gilbert is a born heel. He did as fine a job he could as a face during his stint, but it clearly isn't what he is the best at. I liked his mini TV feud with Samu in 1990. That's what I really liked about Cornette, he didn't pander to the crowd, he didn't act like he was a good guy all of a sudden. it's just that now people cheered them beacuse they were *their* assholes opposing Paul E. and the Original MX. Continuity, rare enough thing in wrestling to be noted.