El-P

No one said it was fair. But it all comes down to one thing : Bret not wanting to do a job when he was asked to do it. It's as simple as that. If Bret had said "Fuck it, I'm not a stupid asshole mark like you, I'm gonna put you over because unlike you whiny ass I'm a pro.", nothing would have happened. The rest is irrevelant. Tons of workers would have done the job regardless of the "creative control" bullshit, because this is their job. Bret refusing to do it puts him right at Shawn's or Hogan's level on that matter. And I really like Bret, and as noted I really dislike Vince. Really, I agree with Cornette's opinion which is the entire thing was a bunch of bullshit from all parts involved. Everybody was wrong.

Ok, thanks. I haven't seen much WCW TV from 92, only PPV's and Clashes. They were really hot when they came back in 96, but I guess after 3 years away they were fresh again, plus at this point they were looked at as big name stars.

Finally seriously watching some UWF, I'm realizing how awesome Kazuo Yamazaki already was early in his career. This guy would probably get really close to the top 10 for me.

Exactly. For years I thought Bret was right, but I don't think that way aynymore. Was that a complete dick move from Vince ? Of course it was. Was Shawn a complete asshole ? Of course he was. Was Bret in his rights to refuse to do the job ? Yes he was. But being in your rights doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Bret could have easily prevent this, because in the end, losing the belt didn't mean jack shit in the real world. I know Bret had the contractual rights to refuse to do he job. I'm just saying his attitude was just pueril in the end. When you deal with an asshole like Shawn you have two way to respond : either you're acting like an asshole yourself, or you act like you're above the bullshit and like a complete gentleman. Bret not wanting to drop the belt to Shawn in Canada was stupid and markish, there's no other way around. Bret should have shown how much of a real class act he was, drop the belt in Canada and leave, washing his hands of Vince having to deal with Shawn and Trip. Really, replace Bret with Hogan, and all of a sudden we would get "Oh, but Hogan was a an asshole, he shouldn't have creative control anyway, that's bad for the company." And Dylan, your analogy is really embarrassing.

Vince not honoring Bret 's contract was irrelevant by the time of the screwjob. Bret was going to WCW to make shitloads of money, problem solved. Bret should have dropped the belt, that's all there is to it. That's his job, he's a fucking pro-wrestler. The "creative control" bullshit is as ridiculous as anything Hogan ever did in WCW. He had zilch to lose, he was just a mark for his own character.

Hearing the reports, I'm just glad I'm not a WWE fan. HHH was getting on my nerves as soon as 2000. He had vastly overstayed his welcome by the mid-00's. It's 2011 and WWE is the HHH show. It's just sad.

Shamrock was a natural choice. Plus like Cornette said, if Bret didn't want to do the job, well, put him with Shamrock in the ring and problem solved. Vince booked himself in a corner with this Shawn vs Bret match, and the fact Bret had creative control, but there's no way it's only his fault. Shit, Bret is leaving his company to make millions of dollar in WCW. Drop the belt already, you didn't win it, it was given to you. Shawn was a asshole, and Bret was a mark. In the middle of this, Vince, paranoid about what Bischoff could do, did what he thought he had to. Everyone is responsible, but Bret just should have dropped the belt, he was the only one able to make it simple.

I didn't think Flair was N°1 ten years ago, nothing has changed for me. I don't remember where I put him on my list, I guess he was top ten, but I'm not even sure considering a number of strong joshi picks sliding into the top ten. Can't access to my archives at this point, but I'm positive Flair wasn't in my top 5. As far as only considering peak, it's just like looking at great matches only, it paints an incomplete picture. Of course peak is very important, just like great matches, but saying everything that happens before or after is only "bonus" and shouldn't be taken in account just doesn't work to me because it's ignoring the work of some guys whose post-peak has been excellent in favor of the perennial favourites. It's not like it works against Flair all the time either, when comparing Flair and Fujinami, Flair's case becomes the stronger when you look at some of his post peak work from 92 to 96, as Fuji really didn't do much of anything after the injury. He never got quite as bad as Flair in the 00's, but damn was he boring to death after one point. If you consider only peak vs peak, then Fuji has a case of being better than Flair.

Well, career vs career, I don't think there's anything insane about puting Eddie or Benoit above Flair, considering he had a good ten years of being a fucking disgrace in the 00's and not so hot 8 years in the 90's. You can argue it's unfair because both Eddie and Benoit died young, but there are a number of workers who had a much better past 40's career than Flair had. Of course, it's not a talking point here since we're talking pretty much Flair's prime only in the 80's. I really don't buy the argument that Flair's work from the 80's has lost some stock.

Agreed. Hamada formed UWF and trained Ultimo, who then trained Sasuke. And if Hamada's UWF wasn't a huge success, at least I don't think it was, Michinoku Pro put the lucharesu style on the map before Ultimo even promoted, with the participation to the big interpromotionnal events in the mid90's. It really went : Hamada UWF / Sasuke MPRo / Ultimo DG. Hamada was a terrific worker as early as the late 70's, and was still excellent in the early 00's as far as I know. I like Ultimo a whole lot, but I don't think he was ever as great as Hamada was at his best, and he surely didn't last as long as a top worker because of the injury. Plus Hamada produced Ayako, which surely has to play some role somewhere in is favor.

This reeks of WCW.

When was this ? Martel debuted in 72, so I don't think he would be that green in the early 80's.

I would be excited to see some new Flair matches that haven't been talked about to death, and since he was the ultimate NWA touring champ, a few of these matches probably are out there. Now, would I be excited by the matches themselves that remains to be seen. Overexposure is Flair's worst enemy. But that shouldn't blind us either on the fact Flair was *great* in the 80's, there's no way to twist it another way. Talking about Flair is tricky at this point.

Maybe also people wll get tired after the 25 Flair match on the set, as good as it will be. Because although the "Flair worked the same match all the time" argument is overstated, familiarity will still go against Flair in the end. I don't think Flair stock will rise. Maybe with people who have underrated him after somewhat of a backlash, but Flair has been pimped for the last 25 years as the GOAT. The thing with Flair is that at this point, he can't be fresh anymore. Doesn't mean he can't be considered as one of the greatest, but fresh is something Flair will never have. And freshness plays a pretty big role in the enthousiasm of wrestling geeks with these sets. I can't see how his stock can rise in any way. At best it will be a confirmation that he should be a serious GOAT candidate. Guys like Takada have been (very wrongfully) blasted, so you can also expect somewhat of a lukewarm reception to matches that have been seen and talked about a lot in the last 30 years, if not a backlash. Any way, it will be interesting.

Well, thanks, this list was a little bit US-Japanocentric. It widens the spectrum to say the least. Wonder where FLIK is to push my joshi picks...

Blah. I've actually watched a UWF show yesterday, with two great matches : Super Tiger vs Fujiwara and Yamazaki vs Takada. First time I watched a Takada match in ten years probably (although maybe I re-watched some for the GWE poll), and I'm glad I have a "dated" opinion because Takada in 84 was already one hell of a worker. The notion that he sucked is now laughable to me, complete with updated viewing. And yes, I thought Fujiwara was awesome BTW, and if he's working at the same level all the time during his UWF stint (which I don't doubt, I don't see why he wouldn't), I have no problem with calling him a great worker, at least during that period. I'll watch more UWF.

Or Nobuhiko Takada.

Are you sure he didnt mean Eddy and not Edge? Just listened to the show a few hrs ago, Dave was actually talking about Jericho when he made that statement, in refrence to Jericho's most recent run before he left again, specifically the Shawn feud Really ? Aww man... sorry me. Feel like an idiot.

NWA World Champion (take WCW champ after 1991) : Ric Flair (Jerry's laundry list is a pretty good case) WWF World Champion : Bob Backlund (way too many excellent matches against a wide variety of opponents over 6 year) Intercontinential Champion : Tito Santana (Savage / Valentine, two of the strongest IC programs ever) US Champion : Lex Luger (his 1989 run made him he Man and US champ he did look like the N°1 contender) NWA/ WCW World Tag Champs : Rock'n Roll Express (obvious) WWF World Tag Champs : Hart Foundation (by default) NWA/ WCW World TV Champion : Steven Regal (consistency over the 90's) AJPW Triple Crown (take NWA International title before 1989) : Mitsuharu Misawa (obvious) IWGP Heavyweight Championship : Shinya Hashimoto (like John said) AWA World Title : Nick Bockwinckle (I guess) Add to that : WWWA World champion : Aja Kong (the monster of the interpromotionnal era) WWWA Tag Team champion : Crush Gals (as much as I'd love to put LCO there... way too many more important teams before the 80's) JWP World champion : Dynamite Kansai (see Aja) All-Asia Tag Team champions : Doug Furnas & Dan Kroffat (obvious) IWGP Junior Heavy champion : Jushin Liger (who else ?)

I think Dave said it, to him Edge is HOF. So... But yeah, agreed about what John said about what could happen 20 years from now. To me the trends (don't jump on me) that appear and disappear are as interesting as the proper results of GOAT talks at one given point. Wrestling analysis needs some serious historiography at this point.

At the time, I thought it meant that Heenen hadn't watched much wrestling in years. It's easy to be blown away by something you're unfamiliar with. See Bruce Mitchell calling the ROH Dragon Gate trios match the best match ever. You're probably right. But I need to vent my life's frustration and sadness these days.

Sorry, he actually said "PPV", not TV. Mea culpa maxima. That said, it doesn't change anything about my reaction.

So, Edge is probably the N°1 or 2 guy as far as number of great matches on TV, commanded the audience in a way Dave barely ever saw before, and was a great worker. So, what is Dave smoking exactly ?

All that means is Heenan has pretty terrible taste in "great matches" to me.

From HHH no less. Oh, irony.