El-P

I’ve been watching a lot of Nitros from 1998/1999 lately and Bret’s heel shtick was gold. From the promos to the matches, he was consistently the most entertaining part of WCW (which I guess you can also take as a criticism of how awful WCW was at the time). The buildup to the Sting match was great even though the match itself wasn’t. He did have plenty of good WCW matches though with Savage, Benoit, Flair, DDP, Luger, Booker T, Sting, and even Piper. I think his WCW run is disappointing relative to what it should have been. But it’s still pretty good for what it was. Agree. When I went through WCW 1998 last year, the biggest and nicest surprise was to see how Bret as a manipulative hypocritical sack of shit was the best part of the show. Before the heel turn Bret was a non factor, although the Flair match is better than it has been given credit for. But as soon as he turned, as nonsensical as it may have been, Bret the character was fun as hell. And he did work really good matches. The "Bret in WCW sucked" is a myth to me at this point. The matches and promos are there, at least during his initial heel turn, Bret was still excellent.

Well, if that's the case, then I don't have any interet in it. As much as diving into stuff that hasn't been wachted or talked about much like SMW or 90's Memphis is very interesting, trying to seek out whatever *pretty good* stuff and declare that all of a sudden it's *great* just makes everything irrelevant. There's also the point when it has to be accepted that there isnt any new *great* stuff to watch in one given era or territory. Which brings me to this, there's one territory that looks to me as the black hole of US wrestling, and that's Puerto Rico. Going through the yearbook threads, it's obvious PR isn't represented. I guess the lack of footage and bad TV format is the reason, but it seems like it's the last unique area that really hasn't been talked about, in pretty much any era. Not that I think there are a lot of legit great stuff coming from there, but considering the randomness of the guys who worked there, it's probably fascinating to see what comes from this old-school territory. I picture it as an old fashioned, outdated version of Memphis mixed with tons of bloody stuff. I'm pretty sure guys like Miguel Perez Jr. would be "discovered" if we had the right footage available. Anyway, SMW, USWA and WWC are pretty much the only largely unpimped material of the 90's at this point, and I wonder what could come of it. Sorry for the ranting.

I'm surprised Rude hasn't been brought up more actually since people talk about peak a lot. I probably wouldn't pick him, but he's a better candidate than Malenko. As far as Arn vs Flair goes, it was a failure to me. Just another Flair match, and by 1995 it's nothing great anymore. Blame Flair, blame lack of blood, but it was just there. No hatred, no intensity. Arn had a miraculous match with Luger later in the year that was much more impressive.

Yeah, that seems like a perfectly valid criticisim. I don't think it's necessary, but the fact is Bret had great matches all decade long and was consistent all decade long, which put him in a favourite position to me. The only guy whose peak would be enough to dethrone him would be Eddie I guess.

Even without having seen much of his SMW work, Candido is a very viable candidate to me on the strenghts of his WWF and ECW run.

Just to put things in perspective : Arn : 1990-1996 Steamboat : 1990-1994 Benoit : 1993 / 1995-1999 Eddie : 1995-1999 Rey : 1995-1999 Scorp : 1993 - 1999 Vader : 1992 - 1998 Pillman 1990 - 1997 Shawn : 1990 - 1998 Then you got guys like Flair, Bret, Douglas, Dustin, Smothers who were pretty much always there through the whole decade. Is that about right ?

To me Bret has both the great matches and the consistency, with a TV format that didn't allow him to be entertaining on a wek to week basis. Bret was solid as hell during the whole decade and had the great matches scattered from 1990 to 1999. He's a no-brainer N°1.

Agreed. Athough the yearbooks give such a wide spectrum that one could think about a GW of the 90's discussion/poll when it's all done. From there you can get the top 10 for each style : US, Lucha, Puro, Joshi... Anyway, great thread.

I don't like Lance very much, but I'd have a hard time finding anything remotely good about Kane. A pretty bad wrestler if you ask me. And the worst flying clothesline ever. Lance was a great athlete, but a passable wrestler. It struck me when I realized that pretty much everyone in ECW had their most disapointing matches with Lance. Only Candido could make him look really good. Justin Credible was carrying their team like it's not funny. Maybe Lance was a bit better in WCW, but I won't put myself through this era ever again. Saturn ? The Eliminators were a joke of a team, and his WCW run was nice because he worked with guys who knew how to work. Raven made him look like a star. I like Saturn, but he's not even close to guys I wouldn't consider top 10 material. Jericho may have learned WWF psychology with Pat, but that doesn't mean he wasn't any good before. Before his heel turn he was a spotfest artist, but a good one at that. After the heel turn he delivered quite a bit, and even made me care about Malenko. Douglas I made my case before, he's in my top 10.

So, since he was brought up, where does Savage ranks ? I really would not have thought about him at all, but now that I think of it, maybe he's not a worse candidate than Flair. Not to say I would include either in the top 10, but Savage did have some great matches early in the decade and a few excellent ones late in the decade against DDP. Between the two, he sometimes showed up, and also mailed in quite a bit. How does Savage compare to Flair in the 90's ? To me he compares quite well. Flair didn't had anything as good as he Savage vs DDP since 1992 probably, and that was against Savage. Then Flair had a few good stuff in 1996 too, once again working Savage. Savage has the two Warrior matches under his belt, while Flair as Lex, who was much better than Warrior, but the Sting match is very disapointing. In terms of big matches, I think it's pretty equal (don't give me Flair vs Vader as a great Flair match).

I don't think if was as great as those guys, but yeah, injury-free face Pillman would have put him in the top ten at the end of the decade for sure. I really think the Loose Cannon gimmick didn't age well at all, as it never really resulted in anything in the ring in any way shape or form. It was a gimmick for anecdotes : Heenan saying fuck on TV, the bookerman promo which was stupid and the reason why Russo loves shoot angles (I remember reading a column in the Raw magazine back in the days about it), a bunch of demented promos in ECW which led nowhere, a bunch of demented promos in WWF which led nowhere...

Agreed. It was so refreshing to watch him work like the old Steve Austin in 2001 after the mediocrity he fell into in the very late 90's.

Sabu always made the big spots matter. There was a progression in the high spots, so when he finally hit the big one it mattered and got a huge reaction. I'm curious where this bad brawling supposedly was. Sabu was one of the few guys who did crowd brawling correctly. More often than not it seemed like a fight. Rather than dragging a guy by his hair across the arena. Totaly agree. On Sabu's punches : they were awesome. Used it like Stan Hansen would use little kicks, to make transitions between more important moves too. I would put Sabu along with Bobby Eaton as far as punching goes. On "blowing spots" on purpose, it's no bullshit. I watched about 95% of Sabu's ECW available match (that is I may have missed a few that were on RF video, still not much I think), and the way he evolved through the times and changed his highspots is very interesting. And at some point, you can see him deliberatly stumble onto the top rope and fall back in the ring, which make him loose time, so that the guy on the table is able to get away when Sabu tries the move again. Or fall onto the top rope. I you watch him closely, you see he's totally choosing to do it. Because those dangerous spots aren't supposed to be hit perfectly everytime, if that's was the case, where's the danger ? Sabu was way smarter that he was ever give credit for. Crazy, but he knew how to convey it the best way possible. There's someting to say about Sabu's selling too, which is fascinating : you never exactly know if the guy sells or if he's really hurt, and since most of the time it was both, it made for a unique kind of selling hich was indeed "realistic". On Sabu/RVD vs Busa/Shinzaki, like FLIK said, this match fell apart and was indeed one of the worst the four of them was involved in.

Well, during my ECW watch, I was baffled by how much the "Sabu blows spots and is sloppy" thing has been totally overblown. The truth is, Sabu didn't blew much spots at all. He did "blew" spots on purpose at times too, which was obious if you watch him a lot, to get over the dangerosity of his style, and it actually made sense in the context of the matches and the character. I don't see any bad brawling either, Sabu portrayed brawling pretty well. Sabu didn't go overboard with the tables if you pay attention, and he milked it or hit it often at the right time. Really, he's a guy that really went up dramatically in my book. Bad brawling, nonsensical garbage spots left and right and sloppiness is all about RVD, not Sabu. I can see why some people would find Dustin Rhodes bland because as far as character goes, "The Natural" Dustin Rhodes was bland as hell. I mean, Dustin was a tall pale redneck. That and being Dusty Jr. hurt the perception of him being a really good worker.

Well, Waltman best worker in the WWF in 99, I have no issue with that for sure. But the ECW crew were just tearing it up at the same time, despite poor booking and annoying TV format (ECW on TNN was so much worse than Hadcore TV).

Sting always worked hard. He may not of worked smart, but the effort was/is never in question. Crow Sting would also dog in matches in a big way. The Hogan return match in 1998 is a perfect exemple of Sting not putting any effort at all, while Hogan brought a lot more to the table. As the year went on, he worked harder on occasion. As far as Waltman best US worker in 1999, I don't see the case at all. 99 was a rotten year in US, especially in WWF. What did Waltman do to warrant such a ranking that year ? In ECW you had Tajiri, Little Guido, Super Crazy, Jerry Lynn putting on excellent matches on weekly basis. Benoit in WCW was still quite the man in the ring. Waltman carrying Shane-O and Kane to watchable match sure deserves some credit, but I don'tsee him as being the best in the US at that time. Had he worked in ECW or WCW, it migt have been a different story, but WWF was a shithole in 1999.

Having a good match with DDP in 1998 doesn't make you great. DDP had a good match with Goldberg, who was a poor worker. Luger had two very good matches with Bret in 1998, in which he worked hard and looked good, which were better than anything Sting did that year. Sting was solid. Sting worked hard at times. I've never seen a great Sting performance, much less a great or excellent match in which he was the better worker. I honestly doubt Sting was ever better than Luger was in 89, and I wouldn't call Luger a great wrestler by any stretch of the imagination. Since you menion Jarrett, I would put him way above Sting as a worker without thnking twice about it. And Jarrett isn't what I'd call a great worker either. That said, Jarrett I would put above Malenko without much hesitation too.

I don't even see why Sting would get a nomination. He was game against Vader, but he was never that good of a worker to begin with. Really, a guy like Davey Boy Smith was a much better worker, had about as much great matches as Sting did, and his name wouldn't even scratch my mind in a "top ten of the 90's" discussions. Sting was a fine piece of luggage against superior workers like Vader, Rude, Flair, and that's it to me. 60 year old Inoki had a better match than Sting ever did against Vader (and injured, banged up Vader to boot). Big Bubba had arguably just as good matches with Vader than Sting did. The Flair matches in the 90's weren't exactly great either. I never got the hype about Steiners vs Sting/Luger, to me it's a good spotfest, and that's about it. Sting vs Regal was fine until Sting decided to no-sell from nowhere and beat Regal in two minutes after getting stretched forever. Not a very good match overall. At best Sting was a game worker who could be carried to a great matches by great workers. Kinda like the Bulldog, in a lesser way. Sean Waltman in an interesting name I forgot about. Better candidate than Malenko, Psicosis. A few great matches, lots of good stuff.

To me I don't see you can dethrone Bret. The great matches are there. The longevity is there. The consistency is there. Shawn is overrated, always as been. Not a huge fan of his World title reign. Plenty of workers are ahead of Shawn in my book. Benot should be there somewhere, but I see his New Japan run as muc better as anything he did in the US in term of great matches. Yes, top ten to me. Amazing peak in ECW, and tons of good work before. Hurt by his WWF run, which is a pattern, but Scorp in 96 was untouchable. Some great matches, also tons of cruise control performances, which were good but unspectacular. But overall I think he belongs in the top ten. Awesome in 96/97. Then not quite as good. I'm not sure how his WCW works holds up. His case gets much stronger with 2001, which was an amzing peak year, but or the 90's only, I guess top ten, depending on his WCW work, which I'm not overly familiar with. A few great matches, tons of really good stuff, yeah, Eddie belongs in the top ten. Awesome WCW run until Hogan showed up. Hurt by his WWF run, althoughhe did have his share of excellent stuf there also. Yeah, top ten material. From 1990 to 1992, not doubt in the top 10. Then, no so much, with the occasionnal excellent stuff and also the regular "Flair old match" stuff. Now way. Way overrated. Tons of ECW and WCW stuff doesn't hold up well. Wrestling in a vacuum too many times. Great but short peak in WCW. Case gets much stronger with the lucha years. Super consistant, but I don't see the great matches. Maybe top ten but no way he gets near the very top. You know what, now that I think of t, Mick truly was terrific for most of the 90's. A few maturbatory stuff, but he had his share of great maches, was very consistant. Yeah, No doubt top ten to me. A few great years in WCW. Kinda like Rey. Being cut short in 1994 hurt his case, but he delivered some of the great singles and tag matches of the decade. Just like Regal, super solid and consistant, but I don't see the great matches. The Ted DiBiase of the 90's. Excellent first few years in WCW, not sure the Blondes holds up well in terms of matches. After the injury a wasn't the same. Case gets much stronger with 1989, but for the 90's only, not so sure. Nah. Didn't get to shine as much in WCW as Rey or Juvy, only because of his push. Just like Rey, he might ave a case. He was sloppy at times though. Better case with the lucha years. Call me crazy, but after my ECW watch, I think I'd have no issue putting him in y top ten. Works hold up much better than tons of "solid wrestlers" that have been pimped as great like Dean, the guy elvoved with the times, adding and substracting stuff from his moveset, involved in tons of great matches, was consistant as hell. Maybe those guys back in 1994 were right after all, Sabu was all kind of fascinating. Hurt by his WWF stint. Not familiar with the SMW years. A few great tag matches in WCW. Solid, but would be more like an Arn or Regal to me. Yep, Whipreck getting close or even top ten I have no issue with. Was pretty much awesome in his role in 1994 and developped into a solid worker. Rough around the edges, but it fit ECW style. Tons of super matches under his belt, reinvented himself after his failed WCW run. I like him a lot too, but he would be like Arn or Regal in that I don't see the great matches. As far as consistency though, the guy was awesome. Interesting case which gets much stronger with FMW thrown in. On his US work alone, not quite sure, although he would be a better case than Flair to me. I guess hat's entirely based on Memphis, which I've seen nothing off from the 90's. Except from the great SummerSlam 93 angle/match, his WWF work was rotten, with clown midgets, and kiss my foot matches. Another interesting case. Not sure how his WCW work holds up, but he had a few great matches, and lots of solid one. I would put him with Arn and Regal easily. I would add : Shane Douglas : awesome peak from 1994/1996, when he was in my top 3 or 4 workers in the US, solid early WCW stuff including some great tag matches. Hurt by his WWF stint, had solid stuff in ECW post peak too. Top ten material to me without a doubt Chris Candido : Not overly familiar with his SMW stuff, although I've seen a few, bu he's a much better candidate for top ten than guys like Malenko or Psicosis. Super consistent, made the most out of not so great angles in WWF. Kinda lacks the really great matches, bu I don't think he was ever put in that position either. Carried Lance Storm for a while. Yeah probably top ten to me.

That's it, after being tolerable the first weeks months, the Fabulous Freebirds are officially going into my shitlist. By early 1990, they were unbearable. They totally kill the life out of their matches against Zenk & Pillman at WrestleWar. They don't do shit and still botch spots, restholds galore, I swear they must have gone through 10 pure resthold sequences in that match, don't have any offense, don't bump well, Garvin being the worst of the two. Didn't take long before they got on my nerves.

Not true. He would have been the greatest booker in the history of our sport.

No wonder legit workers think those indy guys are just a bunch of marks. Jeez.

Great idea. I don't think I've seen a decisive timeline of the WCW bookers before.

I don't remember hearing Martel first quiting because of injuries. I know he was involved in real estate as soon as the early 90's, and he was only doing wrestling at this point as a support for his other business. His WCW was cut short because Harlem Heat are poor workers. Got a concussion from Booker T. Then fucked his knee because of Booker T again. Then a few months later after surgery, first match back against Stevie Ray, he tries to protect his brand new knee and got fucked again by Ray's finisher. Then called it quit. But yeah, Martel was smart. Guys quiting when they should have include DiBiase, Santana, Rotundo, Windham... In the 00's, JBL comes to mind.

Dave's report was a gross overstatement. That said, Kobashi looked like he could barely do three steps at a time. Looks totally shot. Looks like a guy who need to retire yesterday and nurse his poor body for the rest of his life. Mutoh is a mystery to me. The guy stopped aging 8 years ago. How can a 48 year old guy with no knee move so quick and do those explosive spots ? 10 years ago if you had told me that by 2010, Misawa and Hash would be dead, Kobashi would be a walking zombi while Mutoh would still do his old spots without missing a beat nor looking awkward, I would not have believed you.