WCW ongoing thread

[Ricky Jackson]

Although it sounds so stupid, maybe the plan was to have Flair lose, get buzzed, and come back repackaged as Spartacus.

 

Glad they went with Robocop as the draw instead.

[El-P]

Interesting. Maybe they realized they had no idea either. Flair wasn't gonna lose his hair. Luger wasn't either. And they surely couldn't use the cop-out of Woman losing her hair. No way to deliver the stip.

I just realized too that it was duirng this period they stopped using cool "real" music for the entrances. No more Halloween for the Samoans, no more Hot Stuff for Eddie Gilbert etc... Wonder what happened there.

[Loss]

I just realized too that it was duirng this period they stopped using cool "real" music for the entrances. No more Halloween for the Samoans, no more Hot Stuff for Eddie Gilbert etc... Wonder what happened there.

TBS made them stop for legal reasons.

[Bix]

I just realized too that it was duirng this period they stopped using cool "real" music for the entrances. No more Halloween for the Samoans, no more Hot Stuff for Eddie Gilbert etc... Wonder what happened there.

TBS made them stop for legal reasons.

 

Had they not been paying ASCAP/BMI (as promoters tended to do) or was it a budget issue?

[khawk20]

I wonder if that's the only Abby face stint in his career ?

Nope, he had a run of several months as a face in Montreal in 1986-87, feuding with Bruiser Brody, Sheik Ali, and The Creatchmans (Eddie and Floyd).

[El-P]

I wonder if that's the only Abby face stint in his career ?

Nope, he had a run of several months as a face in Montreal in 1986-87, feuding with Bruiser Brody, Sheik Ali, and The Creatchmans (Eddie and Floyd).

 

Thanks, didn't know that. Those wacky Quebecers, turning Abby face.

Someone needs to dig up those Montreal territory shows from the 80's. Hearing Eddie Carpentier again would bring me right back the birth of my wrestling markdom.

[El-P]

In the lights of the recent "Muppets on Raw" controversy, I must admit Robocop being Sting's big surprise does come off completely idiotic. First huge brainfart of the Ole regime. The most surrealistic aspect of it being Jim Cornette having to sell it in a serious way, and Ole and Arn cutting promos about Robocop. Just doesn't work on any level.

 

The Freebirds continue to be unbearable in the ring, even the Rock'n Roll Express can barely make them tolerable, just way too much stalling, way too little offense and way too much restholds.

 

Nice little undercard feud between Samu and Eddie Gilbert, having pretty long matches for TV format, going to draws. Samu was easily the best samoan so it's good to see him feature in singles matches. I finally got around to enjoy Eddie Gilbert. Took me years.

I had no idea Joel Deaton worked a bit in WCW, but although he was a really good worker in All Japan, his matches with Tommy Rich aren't exactly setting the world on fire. He also has a very weird left pec muscle which actually distracts me at times. I'm not feeling Tommy Rich at all most of the times, unless he's with a really good or hot worker.

I've cooled off on Stan Lane recently (meaning he doens't annoy me like he used to), as his kick don't bother me as much as they used to, so I guess it's a matter of getting used to it, and he had a good little single match with Z Man. Cornette on commentary was gold. Hell, Cornette was gold in any capacity at this point, commentary, interviews, manager. Teddy Long is pretty damn good also, lots of good promos and good heel color man work.

The Minnesato Wrecking Crew II already reverted to JTTS status after a few weeks, being beaten by Z Man and Pillman in a US tag title match. They don't appear much of a threat to the Steiners all of a sudden. These guys really couldn't catch a break, it's a bit sad.

[Loss]

Regarding Robocop, not an Ole thing. In the time period between Flair and Ole, Jim Herd and Jim Barnett were overseeing the booking. Ole did start booking around this time, but he didn't put together the Capital Combat card. He did lay out the finishes to all of the matches, but he didn't determine what the matches would be. We should consider ourselves lucky -- TBS wanted Robocop to single-handedly wipe out all of the Horsemen and the booking committee were adamant that this wouldn't happen. They downplayed his role at Capital Combat as much as they thought they could get away with. Robocop was the focal point of the advertising for the show (along with Sting, who didn't have a match), but they tried to keep it as low-key as they could.

 

It's my understanding Cornette covers all of this in the Midnight Express scrapbook, but the backstage stories of stuff the company was putting him and the MX through are pretty crazy. They got it in their heads for whatever reason that the MX had to be broken up and spent the whole year trying to figure out how to do it. I've been reading the 1990 WONs lately to prepare for the next yearbook, and there have to be at least a half dozen stories about the MX/Cornette politics that would make you shake your head, and I'm only to September.

 

Also, regarding the managers doing color, one of Ole's first moves was to pull them all from doing color commentary because he thought they were so entertaining that it babyfaced them and hurt the heat in the arenas.

[Loss]

From Graham's site:

 

NWA @ Atlanta, GA - Center Stage Theatre - June 1989

 

World Championship Wrestling - 6/10/89 - featured pre-taped footage from a different television taping of Jim Ross conducting an interview with Terry Funk regarding his upcoming match at the Clash of the Champions against Ricky Steamboat; after Funk referred to Steamboat's child as a "pig-nosed half-breed," Steamboat interrupted with he and Funk sharing words; moments later, NWA US Champion Lex Luger appeared in the studio, called for the tape to be stopped, and said he was done with the politics and was upset that he wasn't on the upcoming Clash show; Luger then argued that he should be the top contender to Flair's title instead of Funk or Steamboat; Luger then called for Flair to either wrestle or give up his title and said he would be at the Clash; after Luger left, the remainder of the Steamboat interview was shown in which Steamboat said Funk should be happy for even being in the Top 10

This aired 4 days before the Clash.

 

The 05/13/89 WCW had "prior to the bout, pre-taped comments from Lex Luger were shown in which he said he was going after NWA US Champion Michael Hayes and no one would stop him" type of comments.

 

I would be interested when Dave has "Lex turns on Steamboat" in the WON. Wade doesn't have it until Lex wins the title back, and is very specific that we should expect Lex to turn on Ricky at the Clash. When Hayes won the title, Wade had nothing on the plans. In fact, his predictions the issue before are kind of funny: Lex racks Hayes while Steamboat nc Flair due to Funk run in.

 

John

 

Re-reading this thread, I want to clarify something. The more famous Luger rant where he interrupts the Funk/Steamboat tape was on 6/10. But the weekend after Wrestle War '89, Luger did a canned promo saying he was sick and tired of playing by the rules.

 

Also, the Luger/Hayes title change back to Luger did air on Worldwide. Luger hooked the tights to win, further foreshadowing his turn.

 

So if you look back at that time period, they likely knew they wanted to turn him at Wrestle War, considering that they had big plans for Sting and Flair was turning. You had Steamboat and Luger both as babyfaces and both lower on the card than they should have been, so turning Luger made sense because it gave them both something to do.

 

Also, from reading the WONs at the time, they felt like Flair/Luger still had some milage even though they hadn't really feuded since Starrcade, and part of the Luger heel turn was to set Lex up as Flair's next challenger after the Funk feud ended. The expectation was that because both Flair and Luger were hot at that point that it would draw well. I think it would have, but Flair/Funk seemed to sputter to a finish after Clash 8 and Havoc, which I think cooled Flair off a little bit. They waited a little too long to do face Flair vs heel Luger, and they never did it on PPV. (Starrcade '89 doesn't count.)

 

There is something interesting to be said about how they were drawing at this point. Sting's return at the Great American Bash drew disappointing numbers. Sting's first few rounds of house shows as champion drew disappointing numbers. Meanwhile, Flair/Luger after Wrestle War '90 drew better than anything else they were doing at the time. They weren't doing the business they were doing together in 1988, but the feud was doing far better at the gate than anything that came after it probably until the Hogan years. On shows that didn't have Flair/Luger on top, business dropped considerably. The post-Wrestle War '90 gates created a false high, and some in WCW felt that they had turned a corner.

[Dylan Waco]

I think an interesting wrestling what if is "what if Terry Funk had become a movie star and didn't come back in 89?" Does Flair stay heel? Do they go back to Luger/Flair?

[Loss]

I think an interesting wrestling what if is "what if Terry Funk had become a movie star and didn't come back in 89?" Does Flair stay heel? Do they go back to Luger/Flair?

My only thought is that they would have had to do whatever it took to make sure they kept Barry Windham. Flair/Luger had appeal, obviously. I think heel Windham winning the title from a turned Flair had potential too.

 

Maybe Luger still turns, with both of them blaming their previous allegiance shifts on Flair messing with their heads. Sting steps up to team with Flair and there you go.

 

Here's another what-if: Bill Watts almost came in a few times. He even interviewed for the booking job at this point that went to Ole, but negotiations didn't go far because he wanted the ability to go over Herd's head and work directly with Jack Petrik. What if Bill Watts had come in at this point? I know 1992 WCW didn't work, but let's say Watts wasn't brought in and told to slash costs. Let's say he was brought in and told his primary goal was to compete with the WWF. How would things have turned out? I do think with Watts around, Doc and Gordy would have factored more heavily into plans, so they both might have ended up in or near the top mix.

[El-P]

They sure got some fresh blood around Capital Combat. One week Barry Windham is coming back after his failed WWF stint to join the Horsmen back. The following week Ole unveils Sid as the fourth Horseman. Dutch Mantell and the Southern Boys debut on TV. And then you got Junkyard Dog coming back at CC, which is not exactly "fresh" blood, but he was still over I guess.

And Flair is wearing a ponytail. Odd.

I see how they downplay Robocop as much as they can, with all the heel color guys basically shrugging his involvment off as meaningless after the first week, Arn calling him R2D2, it's obvious they just didn't want to put him over as a big deal.

Watched the first hald of CC, with the excellent MX vs Pillman & Zenk match, with great work from Eaton & Pillman, some great nearfalls you didn't usually see back then, and a (relatively) clean finish to boot. And the Rock'n Roll Express vs Freebird match which was as good as you can get from Hayes & Garvin, much better than I thought it would after the dreadfull 2/3 falls match. The RnR were awesome of course, but the difference maker was Hayes showing up and working as hard as he can. Never thought I would enjoy a Freebird match as much as I did after months if shitty work. Garvin still pretty much sucks though.

[Loss]

That match was worked with sex toys, by the way. David Crockett was supposed to get belts for the match, and instead he got a bunch of cat o'nine tails(es?).

[FLIK]

And Flair is wearing a ponytail. Odd

Is there photographic proof of this? Not just odd but so odd I can't actually believe such a thing occured.

[El-P]

That match was worked with sex toys, by the way. David Crockett was supposed to get belts for the match, and instead he got a bunch of cat o'nine tails(es?).

That's hilarious !!

[Loss]

And Flair is wearing a ponytail. Odd

Is there photographic proof of this? Not just odd but so odd I can't actually believe such a thing occured.

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3tmu6_le...port#rel-page-9

 

Can't find other stuff on YouTube at the moment, but yeah, Flair had a hair crisis that lasted a few weeks and wore a ponytail. It was really weird.

[El-P]

And Flair is wearing a ponytail. Odd

Is there photographic proof of this? Not just odd but so odd I can't actually believe such a thing occured.

 

I made you two screen captures :

 

Flair's got a ponytail

Flair's got a ponytail 2

 

And you can see he was wearing it during that match too :

Ric Flair (with a ponytail) vs Lex Luger

 

Maybe Flair's first big hairstyle crisis before the infamous 1991 one.

[El-P]

Doom vs Steiner was their best match together, much better than any of the 1989 matches. Super stiff with bombs left and right, although they did fuck up the transition a bit, and didn't do anything with a brutal Reed piledriver. Cool finish, but it was obviously the exact same kind of finish used in the MX match, with the same effects (title change), which was a bit odd.

Lex Luger vs Ric Flair in a cage was a great match before the rather shitty finish. I hate the concept of a cage match ending with someone actually getting in the cage and interfering. El Gigante debuts alongside Sting and Ross acts like he knows the guy, which was stupid all things considered since he was never brought up before on TV. And damn did he look clumsy and clueless. Compare that with the awesome debut he made in WWF... Anyway, the match itself was pretty great, Flair was still at the top of his game to me, and he actually puts the figure-four on the right leg for once. Neat pre-match bit during which the referee insists on checking Woman and actually finds a foreign object inside one of her glove. Gold. But damn, if Ole booked that finish, then *this* is the first brainfart of the Ole regime. Luger gets beaten up, and Sting saves the day, making it obvious he's the chosen one to dethrone Flair. Which kinda sucks, because Luger was really hot and looked like he was ready to take the spot. The inclusion of El Gigante and JYD in the mix just doesn't look promising...

[artDDP]

Was the Flair ponytail part of the makeover one of the WCW execs wanted for Flair? I remember hearing something about wanting him to pierce his ear and be "more 90's".

[sek69]

I distinctly remember PWI including a pic of ponytail Ric Flair in their year end awards issue making a joke that he looked like he was posing to be featured on a quarter.

[Loss]

Was the Flair ponytail part of the makeover one of the WCW execs wanted for Flair? I remember hearing something about wanting him to pierce his ear and be "more 90's".

No, just a hair crisis du jour.

[kjh]

But damn, if Ole booked that finish, then *this* is the first brainfart of the Ole regime. Luger gets beaten up, and Sting saves the day, making it obvious he's the chosen one to dethrone Flair. Which kinda sucks, because Luger was really hot and looked like he was ready to take the spot.

To be fair, IIRC that wasn't the finish management wanted to have booked, as they had changed their mind and wanted Flair to drop the title to Luger at that point, but Flair refused, so we got this instead.

[Loss]

That was the case for Wrestle War '90, but not for Capital Combat. At Capital Combat, there was debate over whether they should pay off the Luger chase by giving him the belt, or wait and pay off the Sting chase. They went with Sting, but not everyone agreed with that.

 

Luger was actually asked to do a job here using his injury as an out, but refused, feeling he had been promised the title too many times and was tired of not getting it. Dave sympathized with him on that decision, saying WCW needed to crack down on this sort of thing, but Luger had a case and wasn't the guy to use as an example.

 

As an aside, Dave laid out a great scenario where they would overplay Luger's staph infection as a potential career-ender, have him go down at the hands of Flair at Capital Combat, then do a promo saying that he is retiring because he let the fans down. He promised he would win the title (which he did in the build based on guidance from the bookers, which is why Dave understood him not wanting to do a pinfall job), and he failed to do so. Fans would be begging for him to come back, run Flair-Sting in the interim, and when Luger finally comes out retirement after a few months, Flair/Luger is suddenly a hot issue again and doesn't even have to be for the belt. I really like that scenario quite a bit. As it stands, I don't want to say this was the last time Luger was over as a headliner, but he was never as over as a headliner again as he was when this round of the Flair feud ended.

[Kronos]

Just watched Regal vs Goldberg from Nitro (2/9/1998). No one questions that Goldberg's skills were limited, especially in those early days. But Regal pushes him to grapple, chain wrestle, and even work some submission stuff on the mat. It's only 6 minutes, but I have to agree that I have never seen Goldberg work a more classically styled match. He's forced to pull out all kinds of moves he's probably only recently learned, and he looks good doing them.

 

I have such a mancrush on Regal.

[Kronos]

Sting vs Lord Steven Regal -- Saturday Night, 9/23/1995

 

Sting demonstrates his strength by repeatedly lifting Regal into the air using only the knucklelock at the bottom of Regal's extended arm. Later he throws Regal over in what Schiavone calls a mexican arm drag -- I have not seen that move before, and it's pretty sweet. Short but solid match. It ends with run-ins, as the point of this match is clearly to further Flair's begging Sting to be his partner. (I don't know the ultimate result, but surely it's going to be Flair turning on Sting - they're pushing it too hard for it to be otherwise.) Sting continues to be one of the weaker interviews of any guy who reached his level.

 

Sting vs Arn Anderson -- Worldwide, 9/30/1995

 

Arn and Sting don't do anything special, but they do it very very well. Sting starts out dominant, bouncing up several times from Arn's attacks. Then AA gets the comback and works over the knee. Eventually, Sting escapes a DDT and goes on a babyface comeback that gets the crowd going. Unfortunately for Sting, it's another short match that ends in interferance (this time from Pillman). Flair comes out and begs some more.

 

Arn Anderson & Flyin Brian vs Ric Flair & Sting -- Nitro, 10/16/1995

Arn Anderson & Flyin Brian vs Ric Flair & Sting -- Halloween Havoc, 10/29/1995

 

Sometime in the first two weeks of Oct, Sting and Flair apparently made up. But Sting doesn't show up for the beginning of the Nitro main event. Flair has to wrestle a handicap match, and he's terrific. But eventually, he can't handle it, so Sting runs out. He's absolutely awesome taking a hot tag and cleaning house. (Mongo: "I haven't seen a house get cleaned like that since the Republicans took over the Democrats.") In the end, Sting says he now believes Flair is on the straight and narrow -- which of course means he isn't.

 

For the PPV match, Flair has been attacked back stage and does not come out with Sting. (I can see where this is going.) I love Pillman and Arn as a team. Flyin Brian is agressive, quick, and unpredictable. Arn is slower, but he's mean and smart and strong. They compliment each other very well. Here Pillman lures Sting out to the floor so AA can attack from behind, but he's too smart for them and gives them both a nasty clothesline for their trouble. Eventually Flair shows up in street clothes, but Sting can't get to him for the tag. In the end, as expected, Flair turns on Sting and reforms the Horsemen (cutting a killer promo after the match).

 

This Havoc match had everything I love about wrestling. Solid technique. A fast pace. Wicked heels who aren't above a bit of comedy. A superface giving it his all. Some nasty bumps (at one point, Sting throws Pillman off the apron and into the guardrail). Lots of excitement and suspense. And whitehot crowd. And a terrific promo at the end. This match right here is why I watch wrestling.