WCW ongoing thread

[Jingus]

The problem with those scenarios is that Goldberg's already ruined. The Streak had become the most important part of his character by the time he was champion. Once he got beaten, even one time, lots of his drawing power is gone forever.

[El-P]

Goldy just didn't need to lose to run Goldy vs nWo and Goldy vs Hogan II. The fact Goldberg was invincible was a whole part of his act, and as long as people weren't sick of seeing him always win, he needed to be kept unbeaten. The crowd popped at Starrcade, but more because they were thrilled to see something shocking rather than because they wanted Nash to be the champ. Nash got a terrible reaction on Nitro the next day. And Goldberg wasn't the same because he wasn't "unbeaten" anymore. He's been damaged, for good, and for nothing.

Of course the Fingerpoke of Doom, an abortion in iself as it basically reset the cloc back to before Starrcade 97, was rendered even worse by the fact Mick Foley won the WWF title on RAW on a prerecorded show that got a huge rating boost thanks to the infamous Schiavone line "That will put asses in the seat...". In a matter of two weeks, WCW shot themselves in the mouth, twice.

I think Hogan vs Flair did some good business after all this mess, but the Uncensored idiocy kinda killed the idea of purchasing a WCW PPV forever. But really, the Nash beats Goldy/Fingerpoke of Doom was a thing of beauty that killed the last golden goose of the company.

[Strummer]

IIRC, Super Brawl 99 did a pretty monster buyrate for Flair v Hogan. It was the David Flair nonsense and the silliness of the double turn at Uncensored that destroyed whatever momentum they had

 

edit: yup SuperBrawl 99 did a 1.10 buyrate (St Valentine's Day Massacre did a 1.21. Man a lot of people bought pro wrestling PPVs that month)

 

Superbrawl 2000 did a .10

 

oh WCW

[Sean Liska]

People always talk about 1998 being the year that WCW started to go downhill, but they don't make enough of a differentiation between the Sullivan/Taylor booking regime and the Nash one. WCW had some issues in 98, but I've been watching the TV and there's still a lot of good stuff. You had things like the Jericho's feuds with Malenko and Mysterio, the Chavo/Eddie relationship, Raven's feuds, Flair being crazy entertaining, and OK build for the PPV main events. The booking fundamentals are solid. Yeah, company politics forced them to do a lot of bad stuff, but they were competent. However, once Nash took over in late 98, things jumped off a cliff. The TV became offensively bad. You had the Fingerpoke of Doom, the NWO spending ten minutes in a field beating up Flair, the show with no wrestling in the first hour, and Flair turning heel and going crazy when he had been super over as a babyface and was still a TV and PPV draw. I don't think people like Meltzer make that differentiation enough.

[El-P]

People always talk about 1998 being the year that WCW started to go downhill, but they don't make enough of a differentiation between the Sullivan/Taylor booking regime and the Nash one. WCW had some issues in 98, but I've been watching the TV and there's still a lot of good stuff. You had things like the Jericho's feuds with Malenko and Mysterio, the Chavo/Eddie relationship, Raven's feuds, Flair being crazy entertaining, and OK build for the PPV main events. The booking fundamentals are solid. Yeah, company politics forced them to do a lot of bad stuff, but they were competent. However, once Nash took over in late 98, things jumped off a cliff. The TV became offensively bad. You had the Fingerpoke of Doom, the NWO spending ten minutes in a field beating up Flair, the show with no wrestling in the first hour, and Flair turning heel and going crazy when he had been super over as a babyface and was still a TV and PPV draw. I don't think people like Meltzer make that differentiation enough.

After watching the entire 1998 WCW seasons (well, Nitro, Thunders and PPV), I can attest that there were a lot of good suff. Everything involving Raven, everything involving Jericho, a 6 months stretch of good TV title feuds with Martel, Booker T, Finlay, Saturn, Benoit, lot of good stuff from DDP including the Goldberg and Giant match, good cruiserweight stuff at the end of the year with Kidman, Juvy, Rey, some really good Bret Hart matches after his heel turn (and some great promos, man, Bret was such a dickhead, this was one of the best surprise for me), Eddie & Chavo, some fun tag team titles matches with nWo Hollywood vs nWo Wolfpack, lots of random undercard goodness from Disco Inferno, Alex Wright, Ultimo Dragon, Psychosis, Marty Jannetty...

 

Things were a little dull at the beginning of the year, got on faster tracks with the Spring. Most of the Summer was pretty poor though, and it felt like Sullivan was on his last leg. Loss said Dusty came on board at this point which explained the short Meng push (and I guess, Hacksaw Duggan on PPV). Then despite the horrific Warrior feud, without a doubt the worst thing in wrestling that year in any company, the Fall was pretty good with a few great Nitros. Then Nash took over and yes, it got worse quite fast, with some poor booking decisions from the get-go, more backstage vignettes showing up, and all of his friends getting titles and TV time (which in the case of Disco was allright with me, but Konnan getting the TV title was cringeworthy).

 

Jumped off a cliff is a bit strong, it's not like when Russo took over, but things certainly headed in the wrong directions, but it really went nowhere fast in 99 quicker and deeped than by late 98. 1999 is on my hard-drive but I need a break from WCW.

[Loss]

To clarify, Dusty came on board around spring of '99, but I don't recall him being involved in '98.

 

And yeah, the ongoing humiliation of Flair during Nash's booking run could not have been more exaggerated. During Nash's time as booker, Flair had a heart attack, did a job for Eric Bischoff after Bischoff kissed his wife, had authority but was outsmarted every single week by the heels, lost a title match that drew big money after his son turned on him and then turned heel to ensure that he no longer could draw. In turning heel, he won the title in one of the most overbooked PPV main events in history (to that point) and had the title quickly taken off of him as he took the fall for dropping ratings, despite being the company's biggest ratings draw. In the few weeks after dropping the title, he did clean jobs for both Sting and Kevin Nash and was committed to a mental institution before finally losing his Presidency and being taken off TV completely, only to return when Nash was no longer booking.

 

Pretty impressive.

[El-P]

To clarify, Dusty came on board around spring of '99, but I don't recall him being involved in '98.

Ok, I thought you meant he was also involved in the Summer of 98 for a short time too.

 

And yeah, the ongoing humiliation of Flair during Nash's booking run could not have been more exaggerated. During Nash's time as booker, Flair had a heart attack, did a job for Eric Bischoff after Bischoff kissed his wife,

To be perfectly honest, I felt it was hard to feel for Flair in a kayfaybe sense when Bischoff kissed his wife. Really, Flair is the guy who fucked a thousand women, kissed Liz and tried to take her away from Savage, then eventually did and spent Savage's money. And he was always talking about fucking his opponent woman in his promos. So really, Bischoff kissing his wife wasn't that much of a big deal to me. The heart-attack angle was brutal, but a few weeks later just before Bischoff did the job on Nitro it was revealed that Flair had actually been poisonned and never had a heart-attack. Yeah, it was kinda stupid but Bischoff did get his ass totally whipped at the end. So really, 1998 ended with a clear Flair victory and celebration, the kind of stuff they should have done with Sting in 1997. Well, of course, then it was followed by :

 

had authority but was outsmarted every single week by the heels, lost a title match that drew big money after his son turned on him and then turned heel to ensure that he no longer could draw. In turning heel, he won the title in one of the most overbooked PPV main events in history (to that point) and had the title quickly taken off of him as he took the fall for dropping ratings, despite being the company's biggest ratings draw. In the few weeks after dropping the title, he did clean jobs for both Sting and Kevin Nash and was committed to a mental institution before finally losing his Presidency and being taken off TV completely, only to return when Nash was no longer booking.

 

Pretty impressive.

So yeah, pretty bad.

[Strummer]

I was the one who brought up Dusty on the booking committee in 98. I could have sworn he briefly had the book in summer of 98 with the Meng push and the battle royal at Road Wild being his ideas

 

probably getting confused with 99 though

[Loss]

Possibly '98. I just wasn't aware of '98 at all. I do know he was around very briefly in '99. I remember him saying on the old Eyada show that he said in a meeting that everyone (himself included) needed to start booking for business instead of just using the meetings to find ways to bury everyone they didn't like.

[Victator]

You can only blame Flair for turning heel. He hates working face even if its for the best.

[Loss]

Sure. The whole thing is a combination of Flair being horrible at managing his career and most people who had power in WCW hating him.

[kjh]

From the Torch archives, Dusty was placed on the booking team on June 8th 1998, and probably remained on the team until he was fired when Russo and Ferrara came in, but with his influence reduced when Nash was head booker:

 

DUSTY RHODES BACK AS BOOKER

 

Eric Bischoff announced to the crew of wrestlers at a pre-Nitro meeting on June 8 that Dusty Rhodes would be returning to a booking role. Since nine weeks have passed since Nitro beat Raw in the ratings, it's no surprise some changes were made to try to spark a Nitro ratings resurgence. Dusty is officially sharing duties equally with Kevin Sullivan and Terry Taylor, who had been the primary two bookers in WCW for the last few years.

[Kronos]

Sting & Lex Luger vs Steiner Brothers - Superbrawl, 5/19/91

Sting & Lex Luger vs Steiner Brothers - Nitro, 9/2/96

 

It's not really fair to compare these two matches. One is a 10-12 min PPV match. The other is a 20 sec DQ on TV (to set up an angle?). But I think it's interesting to see them as an example of what has changed and shifted in the 5 1/2 years between.

 

The first match is a solid tag match, with a few cool spots and some nice back and forth. All four guys look good, and it's clear the crowd loves them. In the years following, Luger looks a lot older. Sting when back to his real hair and looks sillier. Scotty is well on his way to becoming Big Poppa Pump in a few years. And Rick looks exactly the same as he looked in 1989 and in 2007. That guy will never change. They don't get to have a match at all, though it's interesting to note Luger and Rick open both matches with almost the same moves.

 

I liked the Superbrawl match quite a bit. I have seen some talk here -- and in the youtube comments -- about its being people's favorite tag matches ever. I can't go that far. I have seen plenty of tags I liked better. But this one is a lot of fun, and it's fairly quick so they have no time to screw up or get boring.

 

Sting vs Brian Pillman - WCW Saturday Night, 9/30/95

 

Pillman seems well into his Loose Cannon gimmick here. He's taunting the crowd and knocking over guardrails. (Sting, incidentally, is such a gentleman that he goes to the floor and helps put the rail back up - Nerd Alert!) This is a short TV match that has lots of Pillman stooging, faking a knee injury, taking some nice bumps off a very athletic Sting. The final spot leading to the pin looks a bit too rehearsed, but it's still kind of cool as Pillman comes over the top rope and dives straight into a powerslam and quick pin. It's capped by a confrontation between Flair and Sting postmatch in which Sting wisely lets Flair do most of the talking and so doesn't embarrass himself.

[Kronos]

Vader vs The Boss - Spring Stampede, 4/17/94

 

How can any rasslin fan not enjoy the spectacle of two giant men beating the crap out of each other? This one's great fun, with a number of sweet spots including Bossman ducking under Vader and causing Race to get squashed on the ramp. Vader gets his ass kicked for quite awhile, and I am reminded of why I like him so much -- the man is a mountain, and he can do almost anything; witness his getting whipped over the railing like a man half his size.

 

Eventually Vader works himself back into control, and he hits his signature moves. A thoroughly entertaining match.

[El-P]

Clash of the Champions 5 : Ricky Steamboat with his ugly baby in the arms. Ric Flair dressed like a pimp with 5 lovely young ladies in evening gowns. Hum... Steamboat kinda was a lame-ass face in this feud, even for the time period. I think the guys in the audience would rather be Flair, and the ladies rather be with Flair, so that let you with the support of the kids only. Well, it's 1989 and the southern audience, so Flair still gets mostly booed, but still, Steamboat is as uncool as it gets here.

Also, Hiro Matsuda was the useless manager ever here. I din't understand why they thought he was needed to take the place of Dillon (who I guess left for the WWF at this time), Flair really didn't need anyone.

Of course, depsite the über family man gimmick of Steamboat, the feud is pretty awesome.

How many masked JTTS could Jack Victory work in one night ? Russian Assassin #2, Blackmailer... He was a trooper.

[Log]

How many masked JTTS could Jack Victory work in one night ? Russian Assassin #2, Blackmailer... He was a trooper.

I always thought it was funny that they picked the dude with one of the most recognizable bodies in wrestling to do multiple masked gimmicks.

[El-P]

You mean the most recognizable fat ass of course. The man could work though.

[Victator]

Jack Victory has a build resembling Roger the Alien from American Dad.

[Log]

Jack Victory has a build resembling Roger the Alien from American Dad.

Holy shit! That cracked me up.

 

Some indy needs to have a guy who's gimmick is that he's like five different masked guys on the card. Make it some super-fat or super-skinny guy that makes it painfully obvious.

[Victator]

Gary Royal while not as distinct as Victory, has a build that is hard to miss when he was working as Gladiator #1,Cruel Connection #1 or Destroyer.

[El-P]

Who the hell was Vincent Young ? White guy with stache who did some acrobatics and breakdanced, with Los Gringos Locos looking long tights. Plus he got shit on by the studio audience, who cheered for jobber Trent Kight instead of the young debuting supposed star.

[goc]

Who the hell was Vincent Young ? White guy with stache who did some acrobatics and breakdanced, with Los Gringos Locos looking long tights. Plus he got shit on by the studio audience, who cheered for jobber Trent Kight instead of the young debuting supposed star.

Interestingly enough, I just asked about him after reading about him in some old 89 Observers. Here is the answer I was given:

Vincent Young = Mark Young = Mark Scarpa = Jay Strongbow's son. Besides his cups of coffee in WCW and the WWF a a JTTS type, he worked in Continental as Pvt. Pyle When Gilbert was booking, had a tour or two of AJPW, and worked in South Atlantic early on when they had name guys like Ricky Steamboat, Robert Fuller, and Matt Borne. I have no idea if he did anything after 1990.

[El-P]

Thanks for the answer.

On the same show, the debut of the Samoan Swat Team, and man did they murdered two jobbers. Funny how I talked about the Demos offense looking weak and dull, and then I'm watching those WCW shows from 89 and there are the Road Warrior who just obliterate people, the Varsity Club who look a thousand time more brutal and vicious than the Demos ever did, and now the SST who were always awesome at working squashes.

I have to mention that Jim Ross, who I think was much better here than during his UWF days (less screaming, less college sports references), really sucked here, mixing Fatu and Samu twice, and calling fatu's awesome splash from the top rope a "flying headbutt", then fumbled and uttered the word "bodyslam". Ugh...

Totally forgot than Dan Spivey was a part of the Varsity Club at one point. Didn't quite fit the gimmick.

[smkelly]

Do or have any workers been punished by the NWA/WCW or WWF for manhandling the jobbers too hard? I know the Rockers and I think Vader got into a little trouble, but I don't recall how much or for how long. It seems like some particular workers were extra rough with the enhancement talent simply because they could and did it enough that it suggests that unless the worker was injured enough to sue, then it's all game.

[Dylan Waco]

I know Jannetty broke a dude's neck, but Michaels was shockingly unprofessional in the AWA stuff I'm watching regularly pitching a fit and taking out on jobbers with Steiners level disregard for their safety.