Could Goldust have been champ in 1996

[jdw]

I'm sure Vince Russo takes credit for it.

 

I thought Dustin did.

 

John

[El-P]

I remember Terri saying she basically came up with the Marlena character and look all by herself.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

In his book, Dustin says Vince came up with the gimmick (or at least Vince is the one who laid it out for him), but he gives Russo credit for the movie quotes.

[MikeCampbell]

Russo says that "a lot" of the Goldust character was his creation.

 

Like was said before, I could see him as a quick placeholder champion, maybe in Sid's role at Survivor Series.

[artDDP]

I don't understand why people like the Goldust gimmick so much.

I feel the same way about the Doink character. Some people act like Goldust and Doink were these two very special characters that the WWF was going to set aside all their usual crap booking and one-dimensional storytelling for.

 

That said, I think there were some interesting moments from both and the recent "Best of Raw" DVDs reminded me that the heel Doink was a pretty good worker. I remember loving the Goldust entrance with the flock of paparazzi and the music but being bored to tears by his ring work.

[Victator]

Russo says that "a lot" of the Goldust character was his creation.

Bret says Russo was doing no booking prior to 98.

[Jingus]

Kane had the belt for like 24 hours once and his thing at the time was "that guy beneath Undertaker doing a soap opera evil brother angle".

Like was said before, I could see him as a quick placeholder champion, maybe in Sid's role at Survivor Series.

The difference is, those guys were monsters. It's always believable to put any belt on a big scary giant. Who took Goldust seriously as a physical threat? He was a pudgy dude with an effiminate gimmick, wearing makeup and dressed in a latex catsuit. That doesn't exactly scream "money-drawing top heel" to me, no matter how much cheap heat he drew from the homophobic demographic which makes up so much of the wrestling audience.

 

And from the beginning, he was generally booked as a coward who could only win his matches with cheating and mindgames. He could barely stand up to an on-his-way-out Razor Ramon, which doesn't speak well for his position on the unofficial "who can beat who" hierarchy. After washed-up old Piper thoroughly kicked his ass at Wrestlemania, how would he have been a challenge for the current top guys anytime soon? (Yeah, I know the counterargument is that Triple H got his ass even more thoroughly kicked on the same show, but it was still over three long years later until he clawed his way into the main event.)

 

Also, remember that the WWF was still fairly allergic to controversy back in '96, and were still a ways off from diving into the Attitude sewer. I'm still faintly amazed that they even did the Goldust gimmick at all. There's no way they would have actually put their belt on the guy. Also, considering how much havoc Shawn routinely caused backstage over the stupidest little things, would he have been willing to job his precious belt to a glitterly golden gay gimmick?

[BruiserBrody]

2 things...

 

Here in Green Bay, Gold Dust segments were banned from airing in syndication. This led to Dok Hendrix doing a localized promo telling the fans that Gold Dust was going to have a meeting with the station manager (This may have been around June 96 when RAW taped a month worth of shows in the Brown County Arena

 

2> There was a rumor floating around that Dustin told Vince he was willing to get breast implants to make the character that much more bizarre- any truth to that?

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

2> There was a rumor floating around that Dustin told Vince he was willing to get breast implants to make the character that much more bizarre- any truth to that?

http://books.google.com/books?id=TmCiPQR_G...nts&f=false

[Strummer]

I can remember PWI killing the gimmick right out of the gate and how they were disappointed in Dustin Rhodes for going along with the gimmick

[Victator]

I think him being Dustin Rhodes helped the gimmick. Dusty's kid fell off the deep end.

 

Who took Goldust seriously as a physical threat? He was a pudgy dude with an effiminate gimmick, wearing makeup and dressed in a latex catsuit. That doesn't exactly scream "money-drawing top heel" to me, no matter how much cheap heat he drew from the homophobic demographic which makes up so much of the wrestling audience.

You mean a guy who was one of the tallest on the roster? Probably the tallest and not lanky tall at that. Also cheap heat? Guess he should feel stupif for putting all that work into the character. He could of just laid on a bed in a tutu saying "I'm a big toughie."

 

 

And from the beginning, he was generally booked as a coward who could only win his matches with cheating and mindgames. He could barely stand up to an on-his-way-out Razor Ramon, which doesn't speak well for his position on the unofficial "who can beat who" hierarchy. After washed-up old Piper thoroughly kicked his ass at Wrestlemania, how would he have been a challenge for the current top guys anytime soon? (Yeah, I know the counterargument is that Triple H got his ass even more thoroughly kicked on the same show, but it was still over three long years later until he clawed his way into the main event.)

1. Razor was not leaving when the feud started.

 

2. Razor was one of the top faces in the company. The only guys ahead of him were the true main eventers.

 

3. Piper was very protected in that time and went on to main event some of the biggest WCW shows ever.

[Jingus]

You mean a guy who was one of the tallest on the roster? Probably the tallest and not lanky tall at that. Also cheap heat? Guess he should feel stupif for putting all that work into the character. He could of just laid on a bed in a tutu saying "I'm a big toughie."

...if you wanna translate any of that into English, I'll be happy to continue the discussion. I have no idea what points you're trying to make here, nor even what tall guy you're talking about.

 

1. Razor was not leaving when the feud started.

But he certainly was by the time the feud was winding down; but the bookers still didn't let Goldust just beat him already.

 

2. Razor was one of the top faces in the company. The only guys ahead of him were the true main eventers.

So why book Dustin against him if you're not going to let the new heel go over? That's shooting the new character in the foot right away, and telling the audience that he's not a tough guy.

 

3. Piper was very protected in that time and went on to main event some of the biggest WCW shows ever.

Which still doesn't change the fact that he fucking destroyed Goldust at Wrestlemania. That put the final nail in the coffin of him ever having any chance of being taken seriously as a top threat.

 

In order for Goldust to have been pushed all the way to the title, they would have basically needed to book him completely different than they did, from the very beginning. They wasted no time in depicting him as a wimp who could barely beat anyone.

[Victator]

...if you wanna translate any of that into English, I'll be happy to continue the discussion. I have no idea what points you're trying to make here, nor even what tall guy you're talking about.

Perhaps you should learn how to read.

 

See the thread is about Goldust so pretty safe assumption I'm talking about him. The point being Goldust is a very large man. One of the largest on the 96 roster. You still following? Then saying cheap heat as if a great deal of work was not put into the character.

 

The WWF did not have heels just beat faces clean. Regardless of whether they are leaving. The Mankind/Undertaker feud stood out because Mankind was dominating Taker in a way that did not happen in the WWF.

 

The fact Goldust immediately got his heat back after Wrestlemania is a point in his favor.

[Jingus]

See the thread is about Goldust so pretty safe assumption I'm talking about him. The point being Goldust is a very large man. One of the largest on the 96 roster. You still following?

Are... are you kidding? Dustin was nowhere near being one of the biggest guys on the roster. He was about 6'5" and maybe 260 pounds, which is respectable, but hardly a giant. In 1996, this company also employed Undertaker, Diesel, Psycho Sid, Vader, Yokozuna, Isaac Yankem, Ahmed Johnson, Mabel... in other words, lots of guys who were a hell of a lot bigger than Dustin. And the card was loaded up with plenty of guys who were near the same size he was, the Godwins and Bradshaw and Mankind and Fatu and Warrior and Duke Droese and Terry Gordy and Jim Neidhart and the Smoking Gunns and Ron Simmons and Barry Windham and Scott Hall and Tracy Smothers and The Rock and various other folks like that. Goldust's size didn't stick out at all. How did you ever come to that conclusion?

 

Then saying cheap heat as if a great deal of work was not put into the character.

And I'm still not sure what your point is here. No matter how much work was put into his character, the overall effect was still mostly a "boo the faggot" gimmick. That's cheap heat, by any definition.

 

The WWF did not have heels just beat faces clean. Regardless of whether they are leaving.

Well, except for when Vader did exactly that to Razor Ramon on his way out. (Supposedly, Hall nixed his feud with Goldust mostly due to sheer homophobia about the angle and how he might be perceived.) Meanwhile, they shunted Goldust down into a godawful feud with Warrior, where Dustin was made to look like a fool and a loser. Goldust was treated like a jabroni from the very beginning, and never allowed to get meaningful wins over anybody. He was briefly kinda pushed during his feuds with Savio and Mero, but that was the only time that he was ever allowed to pin anyone but jobbers. For someone to be perceived like a threat, they need to be booked like a threat and actually beat some guys. The office clearly never had any plans for him to get anywhere above the intercontinental level.

[Victator]

Are... are you kidding? Dustin was nowhere near being one of the biggest guys on the roster. He was about 6'5" and maybe 260 pounds, which is respectable, but hardly a giant. In 1996, this company also employed Undertaker, Diesel, Psycho Sid, Vader, Yokozuna, Isaac Yankem, Ahmed Johnson, Mabel... in other words, lots of guys who were a hell of a lot bigger than Dustin. And the card was loaded up with plenty of guys who were near the same size he was, the Godwins and Bradshaw and Mankind and Fatu and Warrior and Duke Droese and Terry Gordy and Jim Neidhart and the Smoking Gunns and Ron Simmons and Barry Windham and Scott Hall and Tracy Smothers and The Rock and various other folks like that. Goldust's size didn't stick out at all. How did you ever come to that conclusion?

He was the tallest guy on the roster is not the most muscular. i saw him in person and he was the only guy who stood out height wise. The larger point is he could beat anyone on the roster and have it look credible. While at the same time being able to lose to anyone and not have it look ridiculous.

 

And I'm still not sure what your point is here. No matter how much work was put into his character, the overall effect was still mostly a "boo the faggot" gimmick. That's cheap heat, by any definition.

If he put work into it, its not cheap heat. He is not insulting the local sports team or wearing a tutu and calling himself the Gender Bender.

 

Well, except for when Vader did exactly that to Razor Ramon on his way out.

Vader was a different type of heel, and even then that was the closest thing he got to a clear cut win in his run. Even Vader was having to be sneaky to win most of the time.

 

The fact that Goldust big feuds in his first six months were with Razor, Piper, Warrior, Taker and Ahmed shows they had a lot of faith in him. He even got a few screwy wins over Taker. There is no reason to believe if a spot opened up he could not of gotten a transitional WWF title reign.

[smkelly]

Dustin Rhodes is taller than Taker, Kane, Sid, Mabel, and Nash? I don't believe that. Dustin is like 6'6, man. Taker is what, 6'8-6'9, same with Sid and Mable. Nash is a good 6'10-11, whereas Kane is probably closer to 7'0.

 

The larger point is he could beat anyone on the roster and have it look credible. While at the same time being able to lose to anyone and not have it look ridiculous.

How does that work out exactly? That would mean every wrestler was on the same playing field in terms of popularity.

[Eduardo]

Nash is a good 6'10-11, whereas Kane is probably closer to 7'0.

No he's not, Kane had some ridiculously huge lifts on his boots.

[Victator]

He's taller than than Taker and Kane. But not Nash and Mable who were both gone by May anyway.

 

How does that work out exactly? That would mean every wrestler was on the same playing field in terms of popularity.

It means he was big enough to beat anyone without it looking bad while not being so monstrous that losing to a smaller guy would look unbelievable.

[smkelly]

Nash is a good 6'10-11, whereas Kane is probably closer to 7'0.

No he's not, Kane had some ridiculously huge lifts on his boots.

 

Hey, I did say probably! I even had it italicized to illustrate uncertainty.

 

Discussions of height/weight always intrigue me.

[Jingus]

He's taller than than Taker and Kane. But not Nash and Mable who were both gone by May anyway.

Dustin Rhodes. Is taller than Undertaker?!

 

 

Dude. Stop this argument. You're making yourself look really bad.

[smkelly]

Jingus, you just need to realize you are wrong, know nothing about wrestling, and that Dustin Rhodes IS taller than Taker. If you don't acknowledge that, this thread is going to be ten pages long with inane arguing about someone's height in which you will be vigorously insulted. STOP NOW!

[Kostka]

Pretty sure Kane is 6'8"-6'9" without the boots.

[Loss]

Someone look it up on OWW and shift the focus toward something more "Yes he is/No he isn't/Yes he is/No he isn't", please.

[Victator]

He's taller than than Taker and Kane. But not Nash and Mable who were both gone by May anyway.

Dustin Rhodes. Is taller than Undertaker?!

 

 

Dude. Stop this argument. You're making yourself look really bad.

 

Bet his knees aren't bent or anything. Its basically you trying to say that he was not built well enough or big enough to be a credible champion. He clearly was big enough. Regardless if he is an inch shorter or taller.

[Jingus]

Someone look it up on OWW and shift the focus toward something more "Yes he is/No he isn't/Yes he is/No he isn't", please.

OWW's height figures are worked, they list Kane at seven feet, so that's no help.

 

Bet his knees aren't bent or anything.

Oh for FUCK'S sake. Find another picture, then, a full-body one which clearly shows them standing next to each other. I looked through ten pages of Google search, and that was the only pic which came up showing them together.

 

Its basically you trying to say that he was not built well enough or big enough to be a credible champion. He clearly was big enough. Regardless if he is an inch shorter or taller.

Where did I say that? Provide a quote, please. You can't, because I didn't. All I said was that he wasn't a monster like Sid, which is completely accurate. And even if he were the size of goddamn El Gigante, it doesn't change the fact that he was a guy in a latex catsuit wearing glittery makeup and groping himself. That's off-putting, but it's not threatening. And at the time, the WWF only put the belt on heels which were big scary giants (with the six-day transitional fluke of Backlund being the only exception). He just wasn't the model of the sort of character they pushed to the top. Like I said before, to make Goldust into a top guy, they basically would have needed to book him differently from the start.