To what extent does a guy need great matches to be considered an all-time great?

[MJH]

It was the tag match w/Hansen vs. Kawada/Taue, no?

[JerryvonKramer]

I think Dibiase has as much of a rep as he has BECAUSE of his character so I don't see what the point is. I mean, is Dibiase without the Million Dollar Man gimmick a WON HoF first class guy?

That is kind of my point. But my question would be: why is that such a bad thing?

 

Would Rick Rude be as fondly remembered if he'd just been plain old Rick Rude? When they think of Rude, do people think of

first, or do they think of the Iron Match match vs. Steamboat?

 

I think it's a mistake to have GOAT-type arguments and restrict the criteria to in-the-ring alone. I mean for a start, does in-the-ring take crowd heat into account? Because for crowd heat during a match Hogan and Warrior smoke Dean Malenko, as do Rude and DiBiase.

 

Why should the questions be restricted to: "did they have great matches?" and "did they draw?" For me, this is one of the classic problems with the so-called "smart" approach.

 

I honestly believe that Ric Flair wouldn't be as highly rated as he is were it not for his persona, incredible mic-work and ability to get a reaction from the crowd. If he was just plain old Richard Flare during all those great matches, surely we'd think of him much more like a Backlund or a Dory Funk Jr.

 

Who disagrees? Who agrees?

[smkelly]

A wrestlers gimmick is an afterthought for me. I look at workrate then gimmick. Nevertheless, unless the gimmick is something I find disagreeable/annoying/stupid/Russoism/etc I don't give a shit.

 

Bryan Danielson is my favorite wrestler. Benoit was before him. They are vanilla compared to Flair. Both of them have arguably had just as good or if not better matches. Both will be remembered for their in-ring work, among other things. A great wrestler will be remembered for exactly that: being a great wrestler.

[Dylan Waco]

I think Dibiase has as much of a rep as he has BECAUSE of his character so I don't see what the point is. I mean, is Dibiase without the Million Dollar Man gimmick a WON HoF first class guy?

That is kind of my point. But my question would be: why is that such a bad thing?

 

Would Rick Rude be as fondly remembered if he'd just been plain old Rick Rude? When they think of Rude, do people think of

first, or do they think of the Iron Match match vs. Steamboat?

 

I think it's a mistake to have GOAT-type arguments and restrict the criteria to in-the-ring alone. I mean for a start, does in-the-ring take crowd heat into account? Because for crowd heat during a match Hogan and Warrior smoke Dean Malenko, as do Rude and DiBiase.

 

Why should the questions be restricted to: "did they have great matches?" and "did they draw?" For me, this is one of the classic problems with the so-called "smart" approach.

 

I honestly believe that Ric Flair wouldn't be as highly rated as he is were it not for his persona, incredible mic-work and ability to get a reaction from the crowd. If he was just plain old Richard Flare during all those great matches, surely we'd think of him much more like a Backlund or a Dory Funk Jr.

 

Who disagrees? Who agrees?

 

There are separate GOAT arguments. Some focus on ring work alone. Others focus on "full spectrum." I don't think Dibiase is a serious contender using either criteria.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'd agree he is not a Top 10 contender in either, but on "full spectrum" I'd expect to see him in a Top 100 or even Top 50 and ranked higher than someone like Benoit.

 

I can see that being an unpopular view, but I stand by it.

[Loss]

I'm sure if you did an all-encompassing U.S. only countdown where you look at how memorable someone was and just the overall package without focusing on any objective criteria, guys like Rude, DiBiase, Roberts, Hennig and other WWF upper-midcarders/sometimes headliners of the time would do very well. Call it a PWI-type countdown, which might be a fun project. Your Stings, Lugers, etc. would probably do well too.

[JerryvonKramer]

Shall we try to do it? Could be interesting to say that "non-wrestlers" are allowed to rank too, so the likes of Heenan, McMahon etc. could be considered.

[Loss]

Top 100 Wrestling Personalities of the Modern Era perhaps? Meaning 1984-present? Interesting idea if anyone else supports it.

[smkelly]

Shall we try to do it? Could be interesting to say that "non-wrestlers" are allowed to rank too, so the likes of Heenan, McMahon etc. could be considered.

I think non-wrestlers would need to be done separately.

 

Top 100 Wrestling Personalities of the Modern Era perhaps? Meaning 1984-present? Interesting idea if anyone else supports it.

I'm game whenever you want to do this.

[JerryvonKramer]

Loss, let me know what needs to be done, you're probably more experienced than I am conducting these sorts of things - as well as being a "name" over at DVDR etc. Happy to help out in whatever way I can.

 

I think we could go 1980-present for "Modern era" given that's when all the sets start.

 

I'd be genuinely interested to see the results.

[Loss]

I said 1984, but 1983 is a better starting point. The reason I like that year as a starting point is that 1983 was a huge year for many territories and it was the birth of Starrcade, the widely broadcast supercard concept that changed wrestling. It was also near the beginning of the Hogan and Flair eras, cable was taking off, etc. I don't know that one year is going to make a significant difference in voting, but that's always what I classify as "modern era" in my head.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm happy with 1983 as a starting point. It makes sense for many reasons, most of which you point out there.

[Matt D]

The SNME Warrior/Dibiase match is good. No question about that.

 

But then I think Warrior/Andre SNME is a REALLY Good match and that won WON worst match of the year.

[Resident Evil]

The SNME Warrior/Dibiase match is good. No question about that.

 

But then I think Warrior/Andre SNME is a REALLY Good match and that won WON worst match of the year.

I remember watching that at the time and really liking it a lot. I'm going to rewatch it. I think I only watched it twice before.

 

RE --- Loves Andre's WWF work

 

 

Warrior's work too. Does anyone have the match I think perhaps right before Wrestlemania VI where Warrior wrestles Dale Wolfe? on Superstars? I remember he did the military press from inside the ring, than walked over to the ropes while holding Wolfe in the military press before he threw him outside on the mat?

 

I might be remember some of that wrong. Anyone remembering this?

[jdw]

It was the tag match w/Hansen vs. Kawada/Taue, no?

Not in a straight tag match in th tourney as that was schedule for after Ted went out. Looking at a WON:

 

 

ALL JAPAN

 

The entire tournament was announced for the tag tourney which opens 11/13 in Yokosuka. Opening night tournament matches are Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Dan Spivey & Johnny Ace and Steve Williams & Big Bubba Rogers vs. The Patriot & The Eagle. 11/14 at Tokyo Korakuen Hall has Stan Hansen & Ted DiBiase vs. Richard Slinger & Tracy Smothers and Williams & Rogers vs. Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas. The tourney is obviously going to be a four-team race, with Misawa & Kobashi, Akira Taue & Toshiaki Kawada, Rogers & Williams and Hansen & DiBiase. The PWF tag titles, currently held by Hansen & DiBiase, will officially be vacated on opening night as is now an annual tradition, with the new champs decided on 12/3 at Budokan Hall. The major shows of the tour are 11/24 in Osaka with Kawada & Taue vs. Hansen & DiBiase, Misawa & Kobashi vs. Williams & Rogers and Spivey & Ace vs. Smothers & Slinger; 11/30 in Sapporo with Misawa & Kobashi vs. DiBiase & Hansen and Williams & Rogers vs. Spivey & Ace; 12/1 in Nagoya with Kawada & Taue vs. Williams & Rogers and Misawa & Kobashi vs. Patriot & Eagle; and final night at Budokan Hall is Misawa & Kobashi vs. Taue & Kawada and Williams & Rogers vs. Hansen & DiBiase.

Looking at the results:

 

11/13 Yokosuka (All Japan - 3,300 sellout): Mitsuo Momota b Satoru Asako, Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas b Masao Inoue & Yoshinari Ogawa, Rusher Kimura & Mighty Inoue b Ryuma Izumida & Haruka Eigen, Masa Fuchi & Tamon Honda b Jun Akiyama & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi, Abdullah the Butcher & Giant Kimala II b Takao Omori & Richard Slinger, Giant Baba & Akira Taue & Toshiaki Kawada b Stan Hansen & Ted DiBiase & Tracy Smothers, Big Bubba Rogers & Steve Williams b The Eagle & The Patriot, Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi b Johnny Ace & Danny Spivey

 

They did work in an opening night six man, and perhaps Ted initially banged himself up in it... mentality of "work through it". He did work the next two nights:

 

11/14 Tokyo Korakuen Hall (All Japan - 2,100 sellout): Mitsuo Momota & Rusher Kimura b Ryuma Izumida & Haruka Eigen, Johnny Ace & Danny Spivey b Tamon Honda & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi, The Eagle & The Patriot b Abdullah the Butcher & Giant Kimala II, Giant Baba & Kenta Kobashi b Masa Fuchi & Akira Taue, Steve Williams & Big Bubba Rogers b Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas, Ted DiBiase & Stan Hansen b Tracy Smothers & Richard Slinger, Mitsuharu Misawa & Satoru Asako & Jun Akiyama b Toshiaki Kawada & Yoshinari Ogawa & Takao Omori

 

11/15 Toda (All Japan - 3,300): The Patriot & The Eagle b Satoru Asako & Jun Akiyama, Giant Baba & Rusher Kimura & Mighty Inoue b Masa Fuchi & Haruka Eigen & Ryuma Izumida, Danny Spivey & Johnny Ace b Takao Omori & Dory Funk, Ted DiBiase & Stan Hansen b Abdullah the Butcher & Giant Kimala II, Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi b Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas, Steve Williams & Big Bubba Rogers & Richard Slinger b Akira Taue & Toshiaki Kawada & Yoshinari Ogawa

 

That would be his last match before retirement.

 

11/16 Chiba (Al Japan - 2,800 sellout): Doug Furnas b Mighty Inoue, Dan Kroffat b Tamon Honda, The Eagle & The Patriot b Dory Funk & Yoshinari Ogawa, Rusher Kimura & Mitsuo Momota b Haruka Eigen & Ryuma Izumida, Jun Akiyama & Satoru Asako b Masa Fuchi & Takao Omori, Steve Williams & Big Bubba Rogers b Abdullah the Butcher & Giant Kimala II, Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue b Tracy Smothers & Richard Slinger, Giant Baba & Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi b Stan Hansen & Danny Spivey & Johnny Ace

 

That might be something of a makeshift match.

 

11/17 Niigata (All Japan - 3,700 sellout): Masao Inoue b Satoru Asako, Tracy Smothers b Takao Omori, Rusher Kimura & Mighty Inoue b Ryuma Izumida & Haruka Eigen, Johnny Ace & Danny Spivey b Masa Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa, Abdullah the Butcher & Giant Kimala II b Tamon Honda & Dory Funk, Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue b Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas, Giant Baba & Stan Hansen b The Eagle & The Patriot, Steve Williams & Big Bubba Rogers & Richard Slinger b Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama

 

And there's Baba & Hansen joining hands.

 

Again, he may have gotten hurt on opening night and then worked the next two nights before seeing it wasn't getting any better. I recall Steamboat wrestled a few matches after the injury at the Clash, in fact I saw his last match out here in SoCal. The Korakuen Hall match was 7:11 according to the old Shinning Road subsite of PuroresuFan.com. I guess they could have hidden Ted in it. The Abby & Kimala match probably was short as well, not likely to be too bumpy and he could have been hidden as well... or have the neck/back feel even worse after working such a soft match.

 

Suspect he talked about this in a Shoot interview or in his book?

 

John

[S.L.L.]

Why can't, for example, DiBiase's "Abbey Road" be the Basket ball skit?

Because the marquee says "wrestling".

 

So back in 2003, I was actually kinda paying attention to the current music scene for the first time in my life. At that point, t.A.T.u. was getting a bunch of airplay, and their whole schoolgirl lesbian shtick was getting a big media push. At some point in the middle of all that, Bone Crusher showed up, and he had this really goofy, bombastic live presence that I don't think I can properly articulate. But I found it amusing. Thing is, while his actual vocal delivery was as charmingly silly as his stage presence, he kinda struck me as having lousy flow, and really, his whole appeal was in his gimmicky presentation. Similarly, both of the t.A.T.u. girls were awful vocalists with a dreary, unremarkable band, and their appeal lay solely with their gimmick. And this argument briefly emerged in my head over which musical act whose music I don't actually care about was more interesting to watch. I pretty easily chose Bone Crusher, since his music relied on gimmicks, but did so somewhat effectively, and also because I have the internet and, by extension, access to actual lesbian porn.

 

But it's 2011. t.A.T.u. and Bone Crusher haven't had hits since 2003, and I'm inclined to think you can tie at least some of that to them being musicians who didn't have much to offer in terms of music. And that's not to say "bad" musicians never hit it big beyond one-hit wonder status, but their actual music usually offers something that appeals to their fans, even if it doesn't always appeal to someone like me. Can DiBiase's "Abbey Road" be the basketball skit? Can t.A.T.u.'s "Abbey Road" be them making out on-stage? I like DiBiase a lot. I'd really like to think he had more to offer as a wrestler than t.A.T.u. had to offer as musicians.

[Resident Evil]

I like Tatu's music. "All the Things She Said" is a super, underrated motivational song. Extremely catchy and it gives off a "Screw the world, I'm doing it my way" vibe.

[tomk]

I think Dibiase has as much of a rep as he has BECAUSE of his character so I don't see what the point is. I mean, is Dibiase without the Million Dollar Man gimmick a WON HoF first class guy?

That is kind of my point. But my question would be: why is that such a bad thing?

 

Would Rick Rude be as fondly remembered if he'd just been plain old Rick Rude? When they think of Rude, do people think of

first, or do they think of the Iron Match match vs. Steamboat?

 

I think it's a mistake to have GOAT-type arguments and restrict the criteria to in-the-ring alone. I mean for a start, does in-the-ring take crowd heat into account? Because for crowd heat during a match Hogan and Warrior smoke Dean Malenko, as do Rude and DiBiase.

 

Why should the questions be restricted to: "did they have great matches?" and "did they draw?" For me, this is one of the classic problems with the so-called "smart" approach.

 

I honestly believe that Ric Flair wouldn't be as highly rated as he is were it not for his persona, incredible mic-work and ability to get a reaction from the crowd. If he was just plain old Richard Flare during all those great matches, surely we'd think of him much more like a Backlund or a Dory Funk Jr.

 

Who disagrees? Who agrees?

 

I'm not sure what is meant here.

The character Ric Rude portrayed in the ring was the same one he played on the mic.

Ric Flair behaved in the ring the way you would expect the Ric Flair character to act in a ring.

Dusty behaved in the ring the way you would expect the Dusty charact4er to act in the ring.

Same is kind of true of Bugsy Mcgraw, Jimmy Valiant, Mr Wrestling II, and Bob Backlund.

 

Irwin R Shyster didn't really come accross as a tax auditor in ring.

[tomk]

Top 100 Wrestling Personalities of the Modern Era perhaps? Meaning 1984-present? Interesting idea if anyone else supports it.

 

Wouldn't that just be Rock followed by Hogan?

[jdw]

And this argument briefly emerged in my head over which musical act whose music I don't actually care about was more interesting to watch. I pretty easily chose Bone Crusher, since his music relied on gimmicks, but did so somewhat effectively, and also because I have the internet and, by extension, access to actual lesbian porn.

"Rack him."

-Jim Rome

 

 

John

[jdw]

Top 100 Wrestling Personalities of the Modern Era perhaps? Meaning 1984-present? Interesting idea if anyone else supports it.

 

Wouldn't that just be Rock followed by Hogan?

 

It would just be the four Usual Suspects: Hulk, Stone Cold, Rock and Nature Boy.

 

Unless one is breaking down the psychology of the Personalities.

 

The point of analyzing Ricky Morton's Personality vs Rick Steamboat's Personality?

 

"Ricky knew how to toss his hair gently while being interviewed to pop the teenyboppers, while Steamer is better at getting angry when a heel does something mean to him."

 

Is there anything terribly interesting about Hulk's personality?

 

"He beats motherfuckers up, pins them clean in the end, and proves he's the greatest wrestler in the world because fans keep paying him to beat up one heel lined up after another for him."

 

Sure, we can get deep about it:

 

"The thing about Hogan as a face is that he's not really a face: he's willing to cheat if the heel pushes him to it. Look at those back rakes, and his willingness to choke out heels with his own t-shirt. He may talk about prayers, vitamins and what not, but when it comes down to it, the Hulkster will do anything to beat those nasty heels."

 

Interesting?

 

Not a fucking bit.

 

Relevant?

 

Who knows. The fans still pop like hell in the end when he wins and hits the posing routine. And lord knows the posing routine isn't a great Personality either, but the fans ate that shit up.

 

I feel like we can go off on a jag like that wrestling book in the 80s that did a thesis on pro wrestling... which in the end was pretty funny reading for most of us hardcores at the time.

 

John

[Jingus]

Top 100 Wrestling Personalities of the Modern Era perhaps? Meaning 1984-present? Interesting idea if anyone else supports it.

Wouldn't that just be Rock followed by Hogan?

 

It would just be the four Usual Suspects: Hulk, Stone Cold, Rock and Nature Boy.

 

When debating who's the biggest wrestling star of all time, how much should we take into account their fame among non-wrestling-fans? It just hit me that guys like Andre, Savage, Piper, or Ventura are probably more famous outside of the wrestling bubble than Flair is.

[jdw]

I threw Flair in there because people would yell at me if I didn't.

 

John

[Resident Evil]

Top 100 Wrestling Personalities of the Modern Era perhaps? Meaning 1984-present? Interesting idea if anyone else supports it.

 

Wouldn't that just be Rock followed by Hogan?

 

Rock is big but Hogan is a bigger wrestling personality. Hogan's name = Wrestling much like Gretzky is to hockey or Jordan is to basketball or Bruce Lee is to martial art flicks or Mario is to video games. He is king. No question.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I threw Flair in there because people would yell at me if I didn't.

 

John

I'm one of the biggest Flair fans going, but even I admit he's not really a "household name" like Hulk Hogan or Andre the Giant.