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To what extent does a guy need great matches to be considered an all-time great?


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Loss - his promos were still electric though, right? Doesn't that do anything to moderate / mediate that view?

His promos were still excellent for the most part. Although I think you'd find that he wasn't as consistent an interview as he was in the 80s, even though he was still one of the best interviews in wrestling. Still, I'm not going to go on a tangent criticizing Flair promos.

 

I think regardless of what criteria you use, if you're going to make the case for Flair as GOAT (which is one that I 100% agree with, just so you know), the battleground has to be his peak years, when he was a great worker, great promo and great draw at the same time.

 

If you want to make the Bob Dylan comparison, if you see Dylan as GOAT, is arguing the case for Time Out Of Mind critical to that argument? I personally don't think it is. Neither is past-his-prime Flair.

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Well he didn't get a single Grammy nomination until 1998 off the back of that album... ;).

 

The 1992 cut-off is probably a bit late, anyway, as Loss pointed out. Mainly to incorporate the Rumble and the stuff with Savage (though I don't think that is "great"). But there is no way I'm buying Flair as a "top level" worker beyond that. Of course there's good stuff, but Flair's not a Top 10 worker in 1993, or at any point thereafter. The more interesting point to me, if you're arguing longevity, is when you start your date-line; how far back into the '70s can you say he was "great"? As in, on the level of the top workers like Terry, Jumbo, Billy, Bock, Harley etc... he's great by '83 at the absolutely latest, probably a couple of years by that point (and probably peaks around the middle of the decade rather than '89, I'd argue), but fifteen years as a top level worker isn't exactly mind-blowingly longer than others. To use the obvious comparison, we can confidently say Jumbo was Top 5 by 1976 and that lasted until 1992 (and he probably had a few more in there but for the illness).

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The Flair/Jumbo match from '78 that aired on Classics is incredibly disappointing. That said, sometimes matches in Japan are an outlier for guys who are good in other settings, and he may have just had an off night. But there is a considerable difference between '78 Flair against Jumbo and '81 Flair against Jumbo.

 

The earliest complete match I've seen of Flair's that was given time was a match against Valentine in Sept. 1980 that is excellent and 20+ minutes. I'd be surprised if it doesn't make the DVDVR set. I always suspected that Flair and Steamboat improved by working each other in the late 70s, so they both got good around the same time, but I have nothing to back up that opinion. It's just a theory.

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The Flair/Jumbo match from '78 that aired on Classics is incredibly disappointing. That said, sometimes matches in Japan are an outlier for guys who are good in other settings, and he may have just had an off night. But there is a considerable difference between '78 Flair against Jumbo and '81 Flair against Jumbo.

 

The earliest complete match I've seen of Flair's that was given time was a match against Valentine in Sept. 1980 that is excellent and 20+ minutes. I'd be surprised if it doesn't make the DVDVR set. I always suspected that Flair and Steamboat improved by working each other in the late 70s, so they both got good around the same time, but I have nothing to back up that opinion. It's just a theory.

I bet there are a ton of awesome Flair/Valentine tag matches. And if someone ever invents time travel we'll be able to see them.

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How can you draw the line at 1992? Steamboat in '94?

Really boring, mediocre matches.

 

 

Arn in '95 (feud as well as the match, PLUS the awesome double cross vs. Sting a few months later)?

The match with Arn sucked. I've made this analogy before:

 

These are two "brothers" finally fighting.

 

Has anyone here seen brothers *really* fight? Not the jawing shit, or the shoving shit that gets broken up by Paw, or the drunken shit where they'rejust being stupid... but the *real* drag out fighting? I've seen at least three sets of brothers from three different families with a wide age range go it, and there isn't anything like it (unless one wants to go to Husband vs Wife). No matter how much the two love each other there's years of deep seated feelings boiling over, every little thing each has fucking hated about each other... it's about as close to murderous rage coming out as you'll see where it doesn't cross that line. Just fucking wailing away at each other, not being able to turn it off. We made "bringing the hate" one of the great bullshit tropes of the past 15 years of online conversation, but wrestling "hate" is comic book shit in comp.

 

Flair vs Arn? Weak ass hate. The two of them just couldn't bring it off... fuck it, let's be honest: they were too fucking stupid as wrestlers to tap into it and even attempt it. A hateless match, when it should have been their most hateful of matches.

 

You think Terry Funk would have been as much of a fuck up if he had to work a feud with Dory where the storyline was real Brother vs Brother stuff?

 

 

His stuff in '93 vs. Vader is great too, especially the "retirement" match/angle, that had me in real genuine tears.

Did anyone think Ric was losing? The retirement angle simply meant he was a lock to win. It wasn't like he was wrestling Hogan or it was a match against Taker at Mania. ;)

 

Ric sold the fuck out of the storyline. WCW, as shitty as they were through that era, for once had their ham handedness work well in a storyline. But...

 

The match was painful to watch, and not in a "good painful" way either. Ric was uncomfortable as an opponent for Vader, so clearly someone out of a time warp dropped into a match against someone from an entirely different era. Hansen was about the same age as Flair, working for damn near as long. We can watch the 7/93 Hansen vs Kobashi (Stan against a wrestler for a newer era) and the 12/93 Flair vs Vader, and which of the three workers just don't fit at all in their match?

 

It's not even that Ric takes "a good beating". It's sad and pathetic to watch him take it. Watch the older Inoki on the 1996 set take a beating from Vader. It's another Old Man getting beat up by Leon, but vastly more impressive in taking the ass kicking. With Ric, it's almost like Leon is holding back at times, at those in that Benoit vs DDP mode where Benoit had to slow and dumb down his shit so that DDP could keep up / not get exposed to much. With Inoki, Leon wasn't slowing down when handing out the beating.

 

I'm not going to say this match sucked. But it was wildly overrated at the time by people caught up in... well.. what in the hell where they caught up in? Ric wasn't losing. It's like saying you're caught up at the end of Season 1 of Justified in the big shoot out thinking Raylan is going to get killed? You're joking, right? If course he's not getting killed... we all know that.

 

Instead, the writers put a couple of other people at risk as well, and while we knew Raylan was making it, there was some doubt in there that some other characters that some in the audience might have liked would make it. So some drama there... and what would happen to lead heel Bo, and those Miami fuckers, and Raylan's old man... there was some twisty shit to sort out there.

 

Flair-Vader didn't have that. Ric was winning. I guess some might delude themselves into the drama of "How is Ric going to beat the Monster"... but come on, it's Ric Fucking Flair. He wins by weak, cheap as shit. The "how" is never terribly interesting in Ric's matches.

 

It's a "spectacle", but really not a great one. Riki vs Tenryu pulled off spectacle better.

 

 

Taboo Tuesday was good. Shawn match was good.

I don't remember what Taboo Tuesday was. One of his matches with Trip, or with Foley. Yikes those were terrible.

 

The match with Shawn was actually pretty laughable.

 

 

leader of the best stable,

That would be Riki Choshu. :)

 

 

We like the music analogies, I think he's the "Bob Dylan of Wrestling".

Ric's work isn't as cerebral as Bob's.

 

Ric is probably somewhere along the lines of McCartney and Elvis. Though not remotely as popular as either of them at their peaks.

 

I'm a Flair Fan, but I got tired of watching him in 1993/94 and wish he'd just gotten out of the ring for good. I'm dumb founded that he's still working almost 20 years later, and only gotten increasingly pathetic and embarassing. We've spent 15 or so years of getting to see what would have happened if they hadn't put a cap in Old Yeller's head.

 

John

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I always felt that the Flair/ Arn match wasn't "hate filled" because like a month later Flair fucked Sting over and the Horsemen reformed. As if the Flair/ Arn feud was all a setup, so they just wrestled each other instead of beating the living dogshit out of each other, like brothers do in a fight.

 

Now why would Flair go to such elaborate measures just to fuck over Sting yet again? Here's why.

 

Posted Image

 

Lucy's smile is the answer.

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The story of Flair vs Arn is not a match of hate. At all. It was that Flair only thought about himself and relied on Arn to achieve his greatness for years, to a point where he took it for granted. Arn was happy to call Flair a friend, but thought Flair didn't value him. He didn't want the match and was incredibly nervous about even having to do it, but felt like he needed to have the match if he had any self respect at all. So the whole purpose of the storyline (pre-swerve) was that Arn was trying to prove he was on Flair's level as a wrestler, and also to show Flair that life would be different without him around. In the bigger picture, they were also pushing that Hogan's arrival in WCW had driven Flair mad, to a point where everything everyone used to admire about him was slowly withering away. He had lost almost everyone who was in his corner at any point. Arn was the only guy who had stood by him, and now Arn just couldn't do it anymore either. So the match is wrestled more like Arn trying to make a point to Ric than it is that they hated each other. That wasn't really part of the feud.

 

I do think the feud could have continued without the swerve and been a full series of matches where the story kind of changed over time. And eventually, the match you wanted from them probably would have been appropriate. But in their first meeting, considering that neither guy was at a point of despising the other? Not yet.

 

I'd actually make the case for Flair/Arn as one of Flair's most psychologically *on point* matches. It's not a classic and you won't hear me calling it that (even though I consider it a very good match). But the match absolutely fit the storyline.

 

Also, I have never liked the comparisons of wrestling to real fighting. Arn wasn't trying to prove that he was tougher than Flair or kick his ass. He was trying to prove that he could outwrestle him in a sporting sense. If tempers flare, tempers flare, but it really wasn't your normal turn where tensions finally boil over and the two can't wait to lock up when the match starts. Arn needed to show Flair (and himself) that he could hang with Flair.

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I agree with Loss, that match is about Arn and his own sense of self-worth and about Flair needing to wake up to see that you can't take people for granted. As such, I think it's one of the more interesting and subtle angles to have been attempted, especially in that era. The match is not a classic (despite arguably being Arn's best singles match), but it's believably worked taken in either the context of the storyline running up to it, or if taken retrospectively (i.e. after the swerve) as a work.

 

jdw, I guess you're far more down on 90s Flair than I am. I was just pulling out some examples post-92 where I thought he still had something to offer. The Vader retirement angle, Steamboat in '94 and the Arn angle were at least memorable. I don't think he embarrassed himself in any of those and if I were forced to keep going with my Dylan analogy, I'd say they were like his "Oh Mercy". I don't think anyone is going to base their "Dylan is GOAT" argument on "Oh Mercy", but it showed he still had something in the locker in 1989. Notice, I'm not talking about Time Out of Mind Here or "Love and Theft", because I don't think Flair has the equivalent of those late in his career - that's where the analogy falls down.

 

The point was that if Dylan had died in 1980, you could still easily make a GOAT argument for him - Oh Mercy, Time out of Mind etc. are just BONUS on top of that. The fact that Dylan also recorded Knocked Out Loaded and, in 1990, a song called "Wiggle Wiggle" is not relevant to the GOAT argument, and we're not going to count those not so good albums against him. For Flair, he could have died in 1990 and his GOAT material is already there; you can extend it to include WWF in 1991-2 or -- as I was arguing for -- to 1995, but most of that stuff is BONUS. It's "Oh Mercy". The good things he did there add to his legend, the not so good things do not detract from his GOAT case. Would you agree with that? Or would you say that the fact that, for example, the Rude and Windham matches in 93 weren't so hot should be "minus marks" against him?

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Putting aside that the match delivered a different storyline than John would have wanted, the match still wasn't very good. I wouldn't say it was a complete bust as there was some clever storytelling touches, but the match dragged and the tired offence made it look like time had passed both Arn and Ric by.

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John, when have you last seen the WCWSN Flair-Steamboat match from '94? It's MUCH better than the PPV match and Main Event match.

Watched them both back in 1994 on their initial airing. Was looking forward to them as an opponent that Ric could work with rather than someone like Vader that he couldn't. Both bored the living shit out of me.

 

I'll eventually watch them again, but I doubt my opinion will change. Even the Flair-Steamboat matches that I loved at the time (such as the 1989 trio) are matches that are akin to pulling teeth for me to get through when re-watching them. Not terribly likely that a pair of matches I thought were mediocre at the time are going to wear better with me.

 

John

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I always felt that the Flair/ Arn match wasn't "hate filled" because like a month later Flair fucked Sting over and the Horsemen reformed. As if the Flair/ Arn feud was all a setup, so they just wrestled each other instead of beating the living dogshit out of each other, like brothers do in a fight.

 

Now why would Flair go to such elaborate measures just to fuck over Sting yet again? Here's why.

 

Lucy's smile is the answer.

You're giving too much credit to WCW.

 

At the time, it felt like the "fuck over of Sting" was because:

 

* they were done with Ric-Arn and had nowhere else to go

* Ric was always more comfy working heel by that point, so the flip ws going to happen

* Sting is a dumb fuck constantly trusting people he shouldn't and who is surprised when another turns on him

 

Elaborate measures? No, just seem like they were throwing shit on the wall, praying something would stick.

 

John

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Arn wasn't trying to prove that he was tougher than Flair or kick his ass. He was trying to prove that he could outwrestle him in a sporting sense.

Come on Loss.

 

Dirtiest Player In The Game vs The Enforcer

 

We're suppose to think this was going to be Billy Robinson vs Verne Gagne working a technical match?

 

Christ, neither of them were technical wrestlers. They were brawlers and fighters who bled all over the place for more than a decade.

 

Note: I'm setting aside the Stooging Bitching Heels who don't beat anyone aspect since that probably doesn't work well in any Arn vs Flair feud. ;)

 

To expect them to "wrestle" was laughable at the time.

 

Terry Funk wanted to prove he could "hang" with Ric Flair in 1989. Go back and watch how Terry brought *hate* to those matches, and it's not like he was fighting someone whose ass he'd been covering for years. Terry just wanted to prove he wasn't washed up, that he still warranted a chance at the title... and he still was a hateful fucker opposite Ric.

 

John

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Funk was an evil bastard who broke Flair's neck and ridiculed him on TV for months.

 

Arn was Flair's best friend, who set up the match by not helping him cheat and talking about wanting to prove himself.

 

Now, once Pillman comes in and you get "the world's gentlest cage match" on Nitro, I agree with you.

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Arn wasn't trying to prove that he was tougher than Flair or kick his ass. He was trying to prove that he could outwrestle him in a sporting sense.

Come on Loss.

 

Dirtiest Player In The Game vs The Enforcer

 

We're suppose to think this was going to be Billy Robinson vs Verne Gagne working a technical match?

 

Christ, neither of them were technical wrestlers. They were brawlers and fighters who bled all over the place for more than a decade.

Come on, that's a massive case of you putting words in my mouth and you know it. Steve Austin was a strong mat wrestler in 1993-1994 WCW and no one mistakes him for Robinson or Gagne. No one mistakes Dean Malenko for Robinson or Gagne. No one mistakes Mike Graham for Robinson or Gagne. That doesn't mean those guys weren't pushed as strong wrestlers. It's concerning to say one has to be the very best in a style in order to deliver a solid match in that style. My comment was in no way a reflection of the quality of matwork they'd deliver. But if you look at the match, they're working holds for a big majority of it. The match fit the buildup. Neither Flair nor Arn being Volk Han doesn't mean they're clueless and can't work holds.

 

You thinking that I thought fans wanted Billy Robinson vs Verne Gagne out of a wrestling match between Ric Flair and Arn Anderson would be the equivalent of me taking your point and saying you obviously want Flair and Arn to have a match in someone's backyard with "Pa" banned from ringside, where anything less than that would have been a letdown. But as long as we're on that point, Flair and Arn weren't brothers. They were very close friends, and their friendship was a hugely pushed thing throughout JCP and later WCW history. But they weren't brothers.

 

How is wanting this backyard BBQ fight between Flair and Arn something that applies exclusively to them? Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannetty teamed for a long time. Did you feel their matches were lacking for the same reason? If you do, fair enough, but I'm curious.

 

You also ignore that WCW had a no blood policy at this time, yet you criticize Flair and Arn for not doing a match with lots of blood.

 

Note: I'm setting aside the Stooging Bitching Heels who don't beat anyone aspect since that probably doesn't work well in any Arn vs Flair feud. ;)

You are also setting aside all the 60 minute matches involving Flair that had plenty of headlocks, figure fours, arm work, etc. Say what you will about the quality or how much you like what they did, but don't pretend it didn't exist.

 

To expect them to "wrestle" was laughable at the time.

Not really. It's what they ended up doing in the match.

 

Terry Funk wanted to prove he could "hang" with Ric Flair in 1989. Go back and watch how Terry brought *hate* to those matches, and it's not like he was fighting someone whose ass he'd been covering for years. Terry just wanted to prove he wasn't washed up, that he still warranted a chance at the title... and he still was a hateful fucker opposite Ric.

 

John

There's also the small detail of Funk piledriving Flair on a table, breaking his neck and sidelining him for two months. That's kind of important. That made Flair/Funk a blood feud. Flair and Arn had no incident anywhere near that heated that would necessitate that style of match.

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Have to agree with Loss here, the logic of saying that because neither Flair not Arn were Billy Robinson or Verne Gagne THEREFORE to expect them to work a "wrestling" match is "laughable" doesn't work at all.

 

At the end of the day, this wasn't two jobbers here, or two out and out brawlers like Jim Duggan and Bad News Brown, it was two of the most respected workers in American wrestling history, so I think it's too much to say the expectation of a wrestling match was laughable. Pushed the argument too far there.

 

I'd also like to throw this out again: whatever its shortcomings, is that match from Fall Brawl '95 the best of Arn's singles career?

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Putting aside that the match delivered a different storyline than John would have wanted, the match still wasn't very good. I wouldn't say it was a complete bust as there was some clever storytelling touches, but the match dragged and the tired offence made it look like time had passed both Arn and Ric by.

I challenge you to indicate which specific offense in the match was "tired", and why it kept the match from being something it should have been that it wasn't.

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You also ignore that WCW had a no blood policy at this time, yet you criticize Flair and Arn for not doing a match with lots of blood.

You don't need blood to convey hate. Anyway, a no blood policy hasn't stopped Ric Flair before. :)

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I challenge you to indicate which specific offense in the match was "tired", and why it kept the match from being something it should have been that it wasn't.

I would have to rewatch and maybe this is my memory being fuzzy, but Arn and Flair working holds wasn't very compelling, at least not for half the match.

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