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PG-13 vs. The World


Dylan Waco

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In fact, if you look at early MPro, they are doing a lot of Memphis comedy spots in the process of developing the style, like the back-turned arm wringer that is guaranteed to end in accidentally giving your own partner an arm wringer.

I suspect we can watch available film from the 50s and 60s where they were doing that in New York... and not because the Fargos brought it there. :) It's an old school spot.

 

John

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Interestingly as someone who was watched a lot of PG-13 and the Bodies recently, I really think PG-13 smokes the Bodies and have kinda been a bit disappointed by the Bodies. To be fair to them I went into watching a lot of SMW with a REALLY high expectation for the Bodies. I had remembered them being a blowaway great team, when in fact I just think they were a really fucking good team. I would rate them above a lot of the teams on the list in this thread, but not above PG-13 who I think put together there matches in more interesting ways and were IMO more exciting as a team.

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How did teams like Misawa/Kobashi even enter the discussion? Wasn't the whole point U.S. teams?

Not really, no. Some other member (Kotska) made that qualifying distinction.

 

Dylan, for the record, I'm not, nor have I ever implied that PG-13 wasn't a good tag team. They're just not top twenty material. There is a list waiting to be made that has a hundred good/great/excellent teams on it. PG-13 would be on the list. But they would never place.

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How did teams like Misawa/Kobashi even enter the discussion? Wasn't the whole point U.S. teams?

Not really, no. Some other member (Kotska) made that qualifying distinction.

 

Dylan, for the record, I'm not, nor have I ever implied that PG-13 wasn't a good tag team. They're just not top twenty material. There is a list waiting to be made that has a hundred good/great/excellent teams on it. PG-13 would be on the list. But they would never place.

 

I understand this. The point was you trotted out a list and I figured that was a good excuse to you know - actually discuss PG-13 in relationship to those other tag teams and other tag teams in general. I tossed up those reviews because I had them easily at my disposal and they showcase my thoughts on PG-13 pretty well. I'm going to run through your list and some of the other teams people have mentioned here in a bit.

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Doing this in waves because my comp is shit.

 

1. Arn & Tully

 

This was actually discussed at the DVDVR during the tag poll a couple years back and I think this is a case where the footage issue really favors Arn and Tully, but if PG-13 had a comparable amount of footage??? I just don't know. I like the Busters a great deal. There best matches are probably better than the best PG-13 matches. I do think the BB's were pretty disappointing in WWF though I'm not sure how much of that was their fault and you could say the same about PG-13 to an extent (though in their case it was inarguably not their fault). When you look at the particulars? I tend to think PG-13 had better offense, more interesting and compelling schtick and overall may have been more adaptable in the sense that "their match" was something they were able to effectively plug in to the TN indies and ECW, whereas the Busters really did not seem to fit quite right in the WWF. I have not watched non-WWF Arn and Tully in a long time barring a match or two. After Crockett Set would probably be a better time to really explore this but right now if you asked me "who's collective body of work would you rather have, PG-13 or the Tully/Arn" I would take PG-13.

 

2. Rock & Roll Express

 

The RnR's were better. They had incredible longevity and Morton was pretty much the god of Southern tag wrestling. Even in SMW, years past their prime, they were a legitimately great team. I thought PG-13 worked really well with them during he SMW/USWA feud and the PG-13 v. RnR's match with Robert Gibson putting in an awesome heel performance on USWA soil is one of my favorite matches from the States in 95.

 

3. Fantastics

 

I love the Fantastics. I own Will's Fantastics set and have watched the whole thing. Rogers is great and Fulton is underrated. I'd have a hard time at this point convincing myself they were better than PG-13. I think their low points were lower, they were not as dynamic (not really a knock as I would say Wolfie/Jamie were an extremely dynamic team in terms of offense, big bumps, building heat, et), their offense was not as good, and they were not as good at any single element as PG-13 was with stalling, schtick, comedy, signature moves, et.

 

4. Midnight Express

 

Both Midnight incarnations were better in my view. I could go into why and may if asked later.

 

5. Jumbo & Tenryu

6. Choshu & Yatsu

7. Misawa & Kawada

8. Misawa & Kobashi

9. Misawa & Akiyama

10. Kawada & Taue

 

All tough for me because I don't look at any of these units as "teams" in the traditional sense. I understand that's not fair given the amount of times they worked together but when I think of teams I think of units that had a collective identity to the point where when one guy was in a singles match it was a special circumstance or seemed outside of the norm. If pressed I would definitely rate Kawada/Taue and probably the three Misawa units higher. I haven't gotten far enough on the AJPW Set yet to really think about the other two teams. But this isn't really what I think of when I think of "tag team" despite the fact that I think 12/96 is the best match of all time.

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11. Footloose

 

Really need to get far enough along in that AJPW set to look at this with fresh eyes but I would lean toward saying they were clearly better based on memories I haven't explored in almost a decade. They also feel like more of a "team" to me than the other AJPW teams listed above which I know will be weird to some people.

 

12. Can-Am Express

 

Well they had better high end matches. Other than that...I don't know. Personally I prefer PG-13. I just can't get over the fact that I thought the CanAms were a HUGE disappointment everywhere other than AJPW. In ECW they had a pair of good matches with Mikey/Spike (talk about great teams no one talks about! ECW had several of them really) but by and large they seemed sloppy, lazy, confused, bored and out of place more often than not during that run. In the WWF they were slightly better but still disappointing. I know the MNW era didn't lend itself to long undercard tag matches but there were other teams from that era that actually managed to standout on some level working against weaker/less interesting opposition than what the CanAms worked. I have never been disappointed in a PG-13 run the way I was watching either of those two CanAm runs. I have no problem with someone saying the CanAms were better on the strength of their best stuff, but I would take PG-13.

 

13. Doc & Gordy

 

I tend to think MVC is a bit fetishized and somewhat overrated. Honestly not sure on this one one way or the other. Though I'm sure AJPW fans will pipe up immediately a name ten MVC matches that ought to put them over the top.

 

14. Orient Express

 

I love the Orient Express! But they weren't better than PG-13. Maybe if I could get a hold of more footage I could be convinced Diamond and Tanaka were better but I kind of doubt it. I thought PG-13 was as good in the two things that really made the Orient Express standout (bumping and offense) and better in terms of schticky stuff and building heat.

 

15. Hardy Boys

 

Jerome thinks they are overrated, I think they are underrated but still think PG-13 was better. Hardyz best run may have been their "greatest hits" tour a few years back as their initial tag run was really just stunt show stuff and doesn't hold up for me at all. That second run had some really solid gems, though I'm not even sure they were the best team during that run. MNM may have been and Londrick may have been second. Either way I think PG-13 was a FAR more multi-dimensional team.

 

16. Dudley Boys

 

I'm assuming this is Bubba/D-Von. Bubba and Spike were the best unit but only tagged briefly. Still Bubba and D-Von at their peak were a really solid team and have even showed flashes in recent years. The problem with them is they have A LOT of bad shit with weak, meandering brawling, annoying over the top no selling shit, et. in between the high end stuff. Nowhere near as consistent as PG-13 and on top of it I don't think there is any single area where they would be better. Hell peak PG-13 even worked the crowd as well or better than peak D-Von/Bubba and that is what the Dudz were known for.

 

17. Edge & Christian

18. Benoit & Malenko

19. Windham & Hennig

 

I don't think anyone of these teams is even in the same universe. Benoit/Malenko is a better team on paper then they were in practice though they were hardly bad. Still I was asked to provide 20 PG-13 matches. I trotted out ten from what amounted to a period that was cumulatively about four months long IF that. I don't know if I could name 5 high end Malenko/Benoit matches period and I definitely don't think there best matches compare to the best PG-13 matches. Edge/Christian really don't have much going for them other than the fact that they are remembered fondly and took part in some memorable matches where people fell off shit that was really high in the air. I loved the West Texas Rednecks gimmick but Hennig/Windham are so far behind PG-13 it's comical. Where are their matches? What did they do better than PG-13? Their wannabe act wasn't even as good as PG-13's wannabe act. That's just a really bizarre team to trot out here and I think easily the worst one on the list in terms of trying to make a case for them being better than Wolfie and Jamie.

 

20. Freebirds

 

Which unit? Jimmy and Michael aren't in the same universe but I doubt that's who you were referring to. As a trios I thought the Birds were at their best. As two man combos I don't think any unit was as good as PG-13 and that comes on the heels of watching the WCCW set and watching a lot of their AWA stuff for that pending set so I have a pretty fresh perspective here. I was surprised to see how well some of those AWA matches turned out but ultimately with the Birds it always felt like it was more about the individual performances than the team. On the WCCW set I thought Hayes in particular was a transcendent figure that really stood out as a singles guy and a focal point in tags that went behind just being "part of the team." That might be a weird point, but to me the Birds were more "three good guys working a in a unit" than a tag team.

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21. Hansen & Brody

 

Not buying it. I do think Brody was PROBABLY better teaming with Hansen than in any other setting, but it's still Brody and their are still moments where you just cringe at his shittiness. I guess Wolfie is the lesser worker in PG-13 (actually that may not be true) but his "lows" barely even exist and certainly aren't as identifiable as what you get with Brody.

 

22. The Funks

 

Terry Funk is the greatest wrestler of all time and these guys had some fucking awesome matches because Terry Funk is the greatest wrestler of all time. Remember what I said about the Birds and Hayes? Well that can be applied to the Funks fifty times over. Dory really was a non-factor in most of their best matches and at times made otherwise good/great matches way worse than they otherwise should have been. When a guy is THAT big a detriment/non-factor I can't seriously argue that the team is an all time great team.

 

23. Hansen & Gordy

24. Tenryu & Kawada

25. Jumbo & Taue

 

Need to go through the AJPW set and watch some of the early 90's stuff and all that jazz but again this is not what I envision when I think of a "team."

 

26. Owen & Davey

 

I don't see how. I actually thought they were an insanely disappointing team to be honest. The most memorable thing that came out of their teaming was their Euro title match which was great and holds up well. But this unit was not as good as Owen/Yoko, let alone PG-13.

 

27. Faces of Fear

 

Fun Nitro era team with no real standout matches off the top of my head and certainly not a team that had a body of work anywhere near as large as PG-13's despite the fact that they were in a major promotion with more exposure.

 

28. Harlem Heat

 

Do people still think they were good? Do they have any really good matches? Stevie Ray is one of the worst wrestlers of all time. I honestly can't think of any argument for them being in the same universe as PG-13.

 

29. The Enforcers

 

Short run with some really good stuff, but I don't think they have enough to rate above Wolfie and JC. They are a rare team that could stall/work comedy bits/had facial mannerisms on their level though.

 

30. British Bulldogs

 

In my view one of the most overrated teams of all time. Part of this was due to the awful Heel In Peril tag style that was prevalent in the WWF when they were at their peak but that doesn't change the fact that for such a well regarded team they have a remarkably small body of work. Honestly I can't think of more than about three Bulldogs matches that even have big time reps which is telling considering where they came from. Cool spots to be sure, but I don't even think there spots were as good as PG-13's. Dynamite MIGHT have been a better rope runner than Wolfie or Jamie. Maybe. So there is that.

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Enjoying your posts so far. But really, if Choshu & Yatsu, Jumbo & Taue, Kawada & Taue or Misawa & Kobashi don't qualify as real team, then nothing does.

Agreed on Doc & Gordy being overrated, especially their work in the States, which wasn't anything special. And in Japan it was really the great Gordy with the average (at this point) Doc.

Agreed on the Bulldogs being overrated because of the impact they made back then which is remembered fondly. Then again, so is Bruiser Brody.

I think the Freebird unit of Hayes and Garvin is pretty underrated. That said, I'm soon going to plunge into NWA/WCW Saturday Nights, so maybe I'll revise my judgement on them soon.

 

How would you compare PJ13 to some old school Southern team like the Pretty Young Things or the Dirty White Boys ?

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31. Hart Foundation

 

I am sort of a weird one on the Hart Foundation because I think Neidhart was underrated but think the team is overrated (at least in some circles). For whatever reason they tend to be the team that is most fondly remembered from that era of WWF and they do have some matches I really like but it is remarkable how FEW matches they have that I really like. Again part of this was due to Heel In Peril shit but what can you do? Of my favorite matches of theirs (The Killer Bees MSG match from Bret's DVD and the Rockers sprint from SNME) I don't think either is as good as the top five of those ten PG-13 matches I listed and again that is a small sampling of PG-13. Thought PG-13 matches were always structured perfectly, thought they had better double team moves, thought they were far more consistent, et. I guess I don't "get" the Hart Fpundation as a top tag team.

 

32. The Rockers

 

I could see this. Rockers were REALLY fucking great. WAYYY underrated. For my money the best WWF tag team of all time and they were fun in Memphis and GREAT in the AWA as well. One of the few teams that I think can match PG-13 offensively, double team/signature spot and otherwise. Also one of the few teams that I think can match them as bumpers. They were good heels in Memphis though we don't have full views of the matches to see quite how well that translated in the ring. If their was more peak PG-13 available I suspect you would see them with a resume as big but there isn't. I would say The Rockers are better based on what we have available.

 

33. Rose & Somers

 

No. Really great team for their short run that had some really great matches where both guys were absolutely awesome. But there run was too short for me to seriously rate them on the level of or better than Wolife and Jamie

 

34. Inoki & Fujinami

35. Adonis & Murdoch

 

Not buying either of these. First of all I don't like their matches together very much at all. Second of all fuck Inoki. Third of all I think Murdoch and Adonis reinforced the worst aspects of each other. I know this is blasphemy but I think I might like Adonis/Ventura more as a team though to be fair Adonis is more of the reason why I don't like North/South than Dick is. I just hate the way they structure their matches and love the way PG-13 structured theirs among other things.

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I'd like a discussion, on this:

 

The smkelly "list"

3. Fantastics

4. Midnight Express

What.The.Hell?!

 

Why would you ever rate the Fantastics over the Midnights?

 

 

I don't think he was. He just listed teams that he thought were better than PG-13, and put numbers next to them so that we could see there were more than 20 of them. You're reading more into smkelly's list than was there.

 

John

 

Oh right, apologies.

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Enjoying your posts so far. But really, if Choshu & Yatsu, Jumbo & Taue, Kawada & Taue or Misawa & Kobashi don't qualify as real team, then nothing does.

Agreed on Doc & Gordy being overrated, especially their work in the States, which wasn't anything special. And in Japan it was really the great Gordy with the average (at this point) Doc.

Agreed on the Bulldogs being overrated because of the impact they made back then which is remembered fondly. Then again, so is Bruiser Brody.

I think the Freebird unit of Hayes and Garvin is pretty underrated. That said, I'm soon going to plunge into NWA/WCW Saturday Nights, so maybe I'll revise my judgement on them soon.

 

How would you compare PJ13 to some old school Southern team like the Pretty Young Things or the Dirty White Boys ?

Kawada/Taue is the one unit of the "big dog" AJPW teams that "feels" like a team to me. It's hard to explain I guess. I just don't see the identity of those guys as being wrapped up or even loosely tied into that "team." I don't mean that as a cop out either - it's just something that I've always felt.

 

I would rate PG-13 pretty safely above both the PYTs and the DWBs who are both teams I like. To me they were just a more exciting team. It's a little thing but even watching a match they had last year I was amazed at how over they were, how well they worked the crowd (as faces), how much height and impact Wolfie got on his signature flip senton bump, et. I don't think the PYTs or DWBs compliment each other as well and Jamie and Wolfie do as you have both guys that are great at everything but who understand in the context of the team who has to do what (Ice is going to work more schtick, be more overtly comedic, be more of a cheapshotting heel - Wolfie is going to bump bigger, have flashier offense, come across "tougher.").

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I'll be honest, I don't really think PG-13 were all that great as a tag team. Sure, their run in USWA was entertaining, but asides from that, they never really built much ground and thus hardly anyone remembers who they were. As for the list... (emboldened is for teams that I think are better than PG-13)

 

1. Arn & Tully

2. Rock & Roll Express

3. Fantastics

4. Midnight Express

5. Jumbo & Tenryu

6. Choshu & Yatsu

7. Misawa & Kawada

8. Misawa & Kobashi

9. Misawa & Akiyama

10. Kawada & Taue

11. Footloose

12. Can-Am Express

13. Doc & Gordy

14. Orient Express

15. Hardy Boys

16. Dudley Boys

17. Edge & Christian

18. Benoit & Malenko

19. Windham & Hennig

20. Freebirds

21. Hansen & Brody

22. The Funks

23. Hansen & Gordy

24. Tenryu & Kawada

25. Jumbo & Taue

26. Owen & Davey

27. Faces of Fear

28. Harlem Heat

29. The Enforcers

30. British Bulldogs

31. Hart Foundation

32. The Rockers

33. Rose & Somers

34. Inoki & Fujinami

35. Adonis & Murdoch

 

My own addition of 10 teams that I think PG-13 are better than...

 

1. Too Much/Cool

2. The All American Males

3. Jim Duggan and Nikolai Volkoff

4. Demolition

5. The Harris/Blu/DOA Brothers

6. The Johnson's

7. The Basham Brothers

8. Axl and Ian Rotten

9. Right To Censor (Bull Buchanan and The Goodfather)

10. The Nasty Boys

Can't tell if this is a troll post or not, but it's worth noting that some people would take Demoltion over a lot of people on that first list and I would take the Nasty's over several teams on that list by a LARGE margin.

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Not putting you in this category, but I always find it interesting when people complain about stalling and gaga in places like Memphis, yet enjoy the Michinoku Pro schtick that originated from the same place. In fact, if you look at early MPro, they are doing a lot of Memphis comedy spots in the process of developing the style, like the back-turned arm wringer that is guaranteed to end in accidentally giving your own partner an arm wringer.

That's a lucha spot. I doubt the Michinoku Pro crew had ever seen a Memphis match in their lives.

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I'd like a discussion, on this:

 

The smkelly "list"

3. Fantastics

4. Midnight Express

What.The.Hell?!

 

Why would you ever rate the Fantastics over the Midnights?

 

EDIT: Some more teams to consider (NB. I have no idea who PG-13 are!):

 

- DiBiase and Williams

- DiBiase and Rotunda (Money Inc.)

- DiBiase and Hansen

- Jake and Barbarian

- Sting and Luger

- Arn and Zybysko

- Austin and Pillman

- Steamboat and Douglas

- THE STEINER BROTHERS

- Santana and Martel

 

Looking at this list quickly and not going into as much detail but...

 

Dibiase/Williams aren't really a "team in my mind" and I don't think they are better anyhow.

 

Money Inc. wasn't really anything special. I'm not sure they are a top 40 all time WWF/E team and that is a promotion that is not known for it's tag teams.

 

Dibiase/Hansen see Dibiase/Williams

 

Jake/Barb I have no recollection of.

 

Sting/Luger were actually a "fun" unit together but they were a special attraction and were basically a "bomb throwing" team in their biggest match with structure being irrelevant. I am a structure guy.

 

Arn and Larry have been covered.

 

Hollywood Blondes are one of the most overrated teams of all time. They are remembered fondly because of what both guys were and what they became. They also were a fresh act at the time that flirted (briefly) with the top of the card. There best trait was working the crowd and they were not on PG-13's level in that regard especially within the context of a match. Pillman was a MUCH better face and was on the downside of his working ability and Austin had yet to peak. I'm not sure they were even as good a team as Scorpio/Bagwell let alone PG-13.

 

Steamboat/Douglas were a pretty good short lived makeshift team, but nothing special in the scheme of things.

 

Steiners were a way better, more entertaining version of the Bulldogs. I still love watching the Steiners toss people around and do crazy as shit. WrestleWar 91 match with Ilzuka and Fujinami is one of my all time favs as is their match with the Nastys from HH 90. But they had one speed and one way to work and that was really it. They did not have the versatility of PG-13, didn't give a shit about tag structure or even really building heat, et. They were awesome at what they did, but I don't consider them a better team than Jamie and Wolfie.

 

Strike Force were a respectable team. Not a single thing they did better than PG-13 in my view.

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Some of those choices don't even seem like teams to me, just singles wrestlers who teamed regularly.

 

I would add the Heavenly Bodies, Steiners, Rougeaus, Quebecers, and Blu Bloods above PG-13.

 

I've covered the Bodies and The Steiners elsewhere (though I would also note that PG-13 are great faces and heels whereas the Bodies were only briefly casts in a face role IIRC and didn't really "work" for me there, plus I don't think there tag dynamic was as defined and interesting as what Wolife and Jamie did) so...

 

 

Rougeaus. Maybe the all time team I don't "get." Perfectably respectable as a team but I literally don't think I like them as much as the State Patrol and I don't think anyone would argue for James Earl Wright and Buddy Lee Parker as being better than Jamie and Wolfie. They had a pretty decent schtick but I think PG-13 is the all time God of heel garnering schtick and the payoff once the action got kicking was really great too wheras with the Rougeaus it felt like "hey, we are French Canadian lol at us" and then...that was it. I could be wrong but going back and watching some of their stuff a few years ago I was not convinced that I was. If anything I think they are a really, really, really weaker version of a PG-13 type team.

 

Quebecers I really enjoyed as you had a clear dynamic with the big fat motherfucker doing crazy shit and Jacques being the pompous bitch. They were a good team. I don't think they had matches that were as well put together though. Even something like the Jannetty/Kid title change which I love has some really awkward moments as Jacques was never a general and Oulette was really there for the big spots and wasn't going to control a match. Definitely an underrated team but I don't see them with the matches, style, or overall quality of PG-13

 

Blu Bloods. Probably the all time paper team. Where are the matches? No way they were better though they should have been

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I'll toss this out here - I would take the Smothers/Guido w Rich in their corner version of the FBI over a shitload of these teams as well and if they had been in any other promotion and had better opponents to work with I really believe they would have been one of the best teams of all time

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1. Too Much/Cool

2. The All American Males

3. Jim Duggan and Nikolai Volkoff

4. Demolition

5. The Harris/Blu/DOA Brothers

6. The Johnson's

7. The Basham Brothers

8. Axl and Ian Rotten

9. Right To Censor (Bull Buchanan and The Goodfather)

10. The Nasty Boys

1. lol

2. lol

3. Not sure, haven't seen enough of them but I'm doubtful.

4. Workrate = no. Overall, maybe.

5. Nope.

6. Haven't seen enough of them to properly comment on.

7. They were awesome in OVW where technical wrestling was appreciated but the WWF dropped the ball almost entirely with the team.

8. Yeah...

9. Nope. Not even close, man.

10. They had two excellent hardcore brawls with Cactus Jack outside of that, I am drawing a blank as to where their real significance lays. Sure, they had longevity as a team, had foreign tours, were in a movie, but outside of that, I wouldn't personally rank them above PG-13.

 

I'm enjoying your write-ups Dylan, and I will provide more commentary later on today/tonight/tomorrow morning :)

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I've read this whole thread now and have many questions to ask of Dylan Waco, but will have to do this tomorrow. I just want to throw out a few more teams. One thing is clear, obviously I need to see more PG-13 to see what all the fuss is about.

 

- The Brisco Brothers

- The Valiant Brothers

- Furnas and LaFon (assuming Can-Am Express is Furnas and Kroffat)

- Iron Shiek and Nikolai Volkoff (not joking)

- Powers of Pain (not joking)

- The Islanders (Haku and Tama)

- Stevens and Patterson

- Hall and Nash

- Chavo and Hector Guerrero

- Arn Anderson and Bobby Eaton (Dangerous Alliance)

- Ole and Arn

- Doom (Reed and Simmons)

- Magnum TA and Mr. Wrestling II

- Windham and Rotunda

- Rick Steiner and Eddie Gilbert (Varsity Club)

- Hase and Muta

- The Beverly Brothers

 

Sorry if that's a bit scattergun, wracking my brains here to see if there's ANYONE you're going to rate over PG-13.

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He has already ranked a few teams over PG-13.

 

New rule: If you name a team, you have to name at least five matches of theirs you like.

 

:)

 

ETA: I mean that facetiously. But naming at least one would be nice. It's become a list of random teams for the sake of it, with no explanation from the people advocating for them of why they like them so much.

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