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PG-13 vs. The World


Dylan Waco

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What bothers me about this thread (besides Jerome calling them PJ13) is that no one else besides Dylan has made a compelling argument for any other team.

 

Jingus, after reading your thoughts, since you are not a fan of Southern Style Wrestling, does that mean you also dislike other heel teams like the MX, PYTs, Freebirds, Brainbuters, etc.? All of them worked shtick and sometimes had entire matches built from stalling, jawing with fans (or manager jawing with fans), cheating, cutting off the ring.

 

If we are talking about all tag teams, The Misawa teams, Kawada/Taue, Choshu/Yastu and the rest of the All Japan teams definitely count. The fact that they were excellent singles wrestlers who could seamlessly work excellent tag matches on a regular basis should not hurt their cause.

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Regarding Windham and Hennig, they were awesome in 1999 in their feud against the Horsemen.

 

WCW's tag division in '99 was awesome too:

 

Ric & David Flair beat Barry Windham & Curt Hennig (13:56) when David pinned Hennig.

 

Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko beat Barry Windham & Curt Hennig (19:34) when Malenko forced Windham to submit.

 

Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko beat Curt Hennig & Barry Windham (16:58) to win the WCW Tag Title when Benoit pinned Windham.

 

Chris Benoit & Dean Malenko beat Raven & Staurn (14:11) when Malenko pinned Raven.

 

Raven & Saturn beat Rey Misterio, Jr. & Billy Kidman and Dean Malenko & Chris Benoit (17:28) in a "triangle match" to win the WCW Tag Title when Raven pinned Kidman.

 

Konnan & Rey Misterio, Jr. beat Curt Hennig & Bobby Duncum, Jr. (10:44) when Misterio pinned Duncum.

Diamond Dallas Page & Kanyon beat Chris Benoit & Perry Saturn (19:13) to win the WCW Tag Title when Page pinned Benoit.

 

WCW Tag Champs Diamond Dallas Page, Bam Bam Bigelow, & Kanyon beat Saturn & Chris Benoit (23:17) when Saturn was pinned.

 

Perry Saturn, Shane Douglas, & Dean Malenko beat Barry Windham, Curt Hennig, & Bobby Duncum, Jr. (10:57) when Saturn pinned Duncum.

 

Harlem Heat beat Barry & Kendall Windham (13:05) to win the WCW Tag Title when Booker pinned Kendall.

 

All from PPVs.

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I'm real tired, but I'll add a line of justification for mentioning them here. Like I said, I scarcely know who PG-13 are, although I do remember them in Nation of Domination, but Dylan Waco has said MANY things with which I disagree here that I would like to take him up on later this week.

 

Anyway:

 

- The Brisco Brothers

 

Reputation alone dictates they need a mention. I liked watching their match with Adrian Adonis and Dick Murdoch from around 1984, WWF.

 

- The Valiant Brothers

 

This is the Jimmy and Johnny team from the mid-70s, again mainly for the rep. There's a match of theirs against Wilbur Snyder and Billy Robinson I've been after for a while but yet to find it.

 

- Furnas and LaFon (assuming Can-Am Express is Furnas and Kroffat)

 

This is because I was unsure who "Can-Am Express" was talking about. I always liked them.

 

- Iron Shiek and Nikolai Volkoff (not joking)

 

I like teams where the two guys have a distinct identity. In terms of good matches, I'd pick the one vs. The Bulldogs.

 

- Powers of Pain (not joking)

 

I always always preferred these guys to Demolition (I HATE Demolition), and since smkelly mentioned the Demos I thought I'd mention them. For match I'd actually pick the one with the double turn vs. the Demos (from *is it* Survivor Series 88)?

 

- The Islanders (Haku and Tama)

 

Again, the match is with the Bulldogs. What's there not to like about these dudes.

 

- Stevens and Patterson

 

Because every time you hear about the great tag-teams, these guys get mentioned.

 

- Hall and Nash

 

Because no one else mentioned them and they were both over and working the crowd seems to be a big factor in Dylan's analysis. 10 world titles.

 

- Chavo and Hector Guerrero

 

Because most of what I've seen on the DVDR sets has been awesome. Unless Mil Mascaras is involved.

 

- Arn Anderson and Bobby Eaton (Dangerous Alliance)

 

Because individually they are seen as the two of the best tag specialists ever and not only were they are a team, but also they were WCW champs AND members of the DA. Can't beat that really can you? Short lived but cool. Incidentally, 72 on the PWI Top 100 list [check this out, notable for me were DiBiase and Williams at 20 and DiBiase and Hansen at 24, because Dylan said he counted neither as proper teams -- Money Inc. are 64 by the way. It's a pretty weird list!]

 

- Ole and Arn

 

Because someone needs to mention them and because no team is more synonymous with the idea of working a body part and in-ring psychology.

 

- Doom (Reed and Simmons)

 

I think Doom are awesome and since starting the Mid-South set have newfound love and respect for Butch Reed. I like any of their POWER matches with the Road Warriors or the Steiners. Like the Clash one vs. Sting and Luger too.

 

- Magnum TA and Mr. Wrestling II

 

Based almost entirely on that cage match from the Watts set and on the knowledge that they had a cool master/apprentice angle.

 

 

- Windham and Rotunda

 

No one ever talks about the US Express, maybe there's a reason for that. Match with the Dreamteam isn't bad.

 

- Rick Steiner and Eddie Gilbert (Varsity Club)

 

Nothing immediately stands out in my mind, but I got there by association - thought process went "Rontunda ... Varsity Club" then remembered these tagged quite regularly.

 

- Hase and Muta

 

I somehow know these tagged in the early 90s against Vader and Bam Bam Bigelow from my days reading PWI. Kinda random from me.

 

- The Beverly Brothers

 

Well why not? They were a perfectly serviceable team and I like their matches with both the Steiners and Money Inc.

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I outlined my basic opinion on PG-13 in the earlier thread, but I think Dylan's been pretty fair with who and why he'd put PG-13 over. There's a few I'd disagree with, but I think what this thread has really highlighted more than anything is actually how few US teams I'd certainly call "great".

 

Now, I think if you throw in Japanese teams then there's no way they're a Top 10 team for anyone. Misawa/Kobashi, Kawada/Taue are no-brainers. Misawa/Kawada's run is better, as I suppose so is Jumbo/Taue even if it was a one-man team. Misawa/Akiyama had a much stronger collection of matches, as did Kobashi/Akiyama. Really, watching the '99 matches with Misawa and Ogawa, even if they're not all-time great matches for the decade for All Japan, they're still on a different level to most if not all US tags.

 

Toyota/Yamada have been completely ignored in this thread, and say what you want about them as workers but their collection of matches is only equalled by the two main AJPW teams. Still on the Joshi front, I wonder where people would put the Crush Gals? I wouldn't have them Top 10, but they're better than a lot of teams listed in here and also have the advantage of being massive draws as a pair unlike anyone other than maybe the Road Warriors and even then they're bigger...

 

From the US, you have to put MX (both) and RnRs ahead of them, as Dylan himself said; I mean they are US Tag Team Wrestling. Tully/Arn I would take too. It's a fair point with regards footage for PG-13, but partly for the reasons I outlined against them earlier, it's Tully/Arn. I think the Rockers is a good level for them, though I'd take Marty/Shawn for being that bit more familiar with them. Hart Foundation I think you can go either way although I certainly agree that Neidhart has been somewhat overrated and the team is overrated (they're not Top 10). Steiners, yeah, they don't hold up for me; that match with Bret and Owen is just a mess, they'd sooner finally get to use their Japanese offence on Owen than work a proper match. Like the Bulldogs, I can definitely see and understand where their rep came from, but, in 2011, it's eh... though I do still like the Harts/Bulldogs matches a lot. Notsomuch against other teams though.

 

I think it's good that PG-13 are getting looked at. There's obviously a danger with these resurgencies/findings where they can often get hyperbolic, but like I said there's very few teams I've seen Dylan put them over that's made me go "wait a second...". Not Top 10 (not too far off) but better than a lot of teams who've had much stronger reps over the years - that's a rep for them I can perfectly agree with.

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What bothers me about this thread (besides Jerome calling them PJ13) is that no one else besides Dylan has made a compelling argument for any other team.

 

Jingus, after reading your thoughts, since you are not a fan of Southern Style Wrestling, does that mean you also dislike other heel teams like the MX, PYTs, Freebirds, Brainbuters, etc.? All of them worked shtick and sometimes had entire matches built from stalling, jawing with fans (or manager jawing with fans), cheating, cutting off the ring.

 

If we are talking about all tag teams, The Misawa teams, Kawada/Taue, Choshu/Yastu and the rest of the All Japan teams definitely count. The fact that they were excellent singles wrestlers who could seamlessly work excellent tag matches on a regular basis should not hurt their cause.

I want to be clear here. I'm not saying they shouldn't count. I'm saying it is really hard for me to view them as tag teams in the sense that to me they are all independent entities that happened to team and have great matches. Some cases are less hard then me than others for reasons I can't fully explain. Hell I always had a hard time viewing the Outsiders as a tag team despite the fact that teamed more than they worked singles (or so it seemed) for a couple years straight.

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1. Too Much/Cool

2. The All American Males

3. Jim Duggan and Nikolai Volkoff

4. Demolition

5. The Harris/Blu/DOA Brothers

6. The Johnson's

7. The Basham Brothers

8. Axl and Ian Rotten

9. Right To Censor (Bull Buchanan and The Goodfather)

10. The Nasty Boys

1. lol

2. lol

3. Not sure, haven't seen enough of them but I'm doubtful.

4. Workrate = no. Overall, maybe.

5. Nope.

6. Haven't seen enough of them to properly comment on.

7. They were awesome in OVW where technical wrestling was appreciated but the WWF dropped the ball almost entirely with the team.

8. Yeah...

9. Nope. Not even close, man.

10. They had two excellent hardcore brawls with Cactus Jack outside of that, I am drawing a blank as to where their real significance lays. Sure, they had longevity as a team, had foreign tours, were in a movie, but outside of that, I wouldn't personally rank them above PG-13.

 

I'm enjoying your write-ups Dylan, and I will provide more commentary later on today/tonight/tomorrow morning :)

 

 

I did state that those were teams off the top of my head that I thought PG-13 were better than

 

@Dylan Waco, who was confused over it being a troll post...Those are ten teams in my opinion whose overall work rate and credibility as a tag team is less than that of PG-13

 

I don't consider Demolition that much of a big draw, they were the hottest tag team in the WWF at one point, however they declined due to the additions of teams like The British Bulldog's, The Hart Foundation and, of course The Legion Of Doom. As for the Nasty Boy's, barring their Florida Championship work in the late 80's..they quickly became stale and failed to make that much of an impression in either WWF or WCW. In fact, most people know Brian Knobb's for his 'Pit-Stop' gimmick in the late 1990's, wrestling hardcore matches against 3 Count in WCW

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- The Brisco Brothers

 

I've seen fewer of their matches then I have seen from PG-13 and while I like the Youngblood/Steamboat match a good bit, I am not a fan AT ALL of the North/South match that everyone loved from the WWF set. After that what is the case for them that we can back up for footage? I'll say flat out that if we had the footage they may have been incredible - but we don't have the footage.

 

- The Valiant Brothers

 

We don't have the footage.

 

- Furnas and LaFon (assuming Can-Am Express is Furnas and Kroffat)

 

 

Finkle is Einhorn. Einhorn is Finkle. EINHORN IS A MAN (i.e. Lafon IS Kroffat)

 

- Iron Shiek and Nikolai Volkoff (not joking)

 

Not very good.

 

- Powers of Pain (not joking)

 

Not a fan and really don't know what they do well that would merit their inclusion here.

 

- The Islanders (Haku and Tama)

 

I actually really like the Islanders and hope we can uncover some solid matches of theirs for the WWF re-do. Don't like them as much as the SST as far as Pacific Islander teams go, but still. Having said that they were really Raw and unpolished. I don't mean that as a knock in general because that was part of the appeal and there are teams that have better reps who I think are worse. Still PG-13 was a more polished act, working at a higher level of difficulty, consistently working matches that had several gears to them, with clever spots of all types mixed in. I like the Islanders but they don't have that kind of depth.

 

- Stevens and Patterson

 

Is there ANY on tape?

 

- Hall and Nash

 

Not a good team in any way. Neither guy gave a shit at this point. I honestly can't think of a single Outsiders match I saw that was good.

 

- Chavo and Hector Guerrero

 

I like the Guerreros a lot but prefer PG-13 because of the fact that they were two guys doing different things but within an overall framework that fit. Guerreros were two guys doing similar things which is not "wrong" but not as impressive to me.

 

- Arn Anderson and Bobby Eaton (Dangerous Alliance)

 

Kind of a disappointing team. Good stuff but of the makeshift WCW teams of that period I'm not sure they would rate very highly.

 

- Ole and Arn

 

Not a fan. They had some good matches but I hate Ole's forward moving all the time, no selling shit. I like Ole less than Brody which is saying something.

 

- Doom (Reed and Simmons)

 

Love Doom but there run was really short. Fuckers were crazy bumpers for guys their size and had some awesome bomb throwing sprints during their run though.

 

- Magnum TA and Mr. Wrestling II

 

Run was pretty short.

 

- Windham and Rotunda

 

Not a terribly good team. Windham is one of the best tag team wrestlers of all time (actually I'd put him on the short list of candidates for BEST tag wrestler of all time) and this might have been his WORST regular tag opponent.

 

- Rick Steiner and Eddie Gilbert (Varsity Club)

 

Never was a big fan of the VC. Don't really see the matches to merit their entry into this conversation to be honest.

 

- Hase and Muta

 

I honestly trying to think what there big matches were and I'm drawing a blank.

 

- The Beverly Brothers

 

I fucking love Mike Enos and I wish this team would have gotten a better run because I suspect they were better than what there body of work says but there body of work does not say much.

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1. Too Much/Cool

2. The All American Males

3. Jim Duggan and Nikolai Volkoff

4. Demolition

5. The Harris/Blu/DOA Brothers

6. The Johnson's

7. The Basham Brothers

8. Axl and Ian Rotten

9. Right To Censor (Bull Buchanan and The Goodfather)

10. The Nasty Boys

1. lol

2. lol

3. Not sure, haven't seen enough of them but I'm doubtful.

4. Workrate = no. Overall, maybe.

5. Nope.

6. Haven't seen enough of them to properly comment on.

7. They were awesome in OVW where technical wrestling was appreciated but the WWF dropped the ball almost entirely with the team.

8. Yeah...

9. Nope. Not even close, man.

10. They had two excellent hardcore brawls with Cactus Jack outside of that, I am drawing a blank as to where their real significance lays. Sure, they had longevity as a team, had foreign tours, were in a movie, but outside of that, I wouldn't personally rank them above PG-13.

 

I'm enjoying your write-ups Dylan, and I will provide more commentary later on today/tonight/tomorrow morning :)

 

 

I did state that those were teams off the top of my head that I thought PG-13 were better than

 

@Dylan Waco, who was confused over it being a troll post...Those are ten teams in my opinion whose overall work rate and credibility as a tag team is less than that of PG-13

 

I don't consider Demolition that much of a big draw, they were the hottest tag team in the WWF at one point, however they declined due to the additions of teams like The British Bulldog's, The Hart Foundation and, of course The Legion Of Doom. As for the Nasty Boy's, barring their Florida Championship work in the late 80's..they quickly became stale and failed to make that much of an impression in either WWF or WCW. In fact, most people know Brian Knobb's for his 'Pit-Stop' gimmick in the late 1990's, wrestling hardcore matches against 3 Count in WCW

 

Your criteria is a lot different than mine. You seem to be putting emphasis on how over/famous teams were where I couldn't give a shit about that for the purposes of this discussion.

 

Also most people don't know Brian Knobbs at all.

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1. Too Much/Cool

2. The All American Males

3. Jim Duggan and Nikolai Volkoff

4. Demolition

5. The Harris/Blu/DOA Brothers

6. The Johnson's

7. The Basham Brothers

8. Axl and Ian Rotten

9. Right To Censor (Bull Buchanan and The Goodfather)

10. The Nasty Boys

1. lol

2. lol

3. Not sure, haven't seen enough of them but I'm doubtful.

4. Workrate = no. Overall, maybe.

5. Nope.

6. Haven't seen enough of them to properly comment on.

7. They were awesome in OVW where technical wrestling was appreciated but the WWF dropped the ball almost entirely with the team.

8. Yeah...

9. Nope. Not even close, man.

10. They had two excellent hardcore brawls with Cactus Jack outside of that, I am drawing a blank as to where their real significance lays. Sure, they had longevity as a team, had foreign tours, were in a movie, but outside of that, I wouldn't personally rank them above PG-13.

 

I'm enjoying your write-ups Dylan, and I will provide more commentary later on today/tonight/tomorrow morning :)

 

 

I did state that those were teams off the top of my head that I thought PG-13 were better than

 

@Dylan Waco, who was confused over it being a troll post...Those are ten teams in my opinion whose overall work rate and credibility as a tag team is less than that of PG-13

 

I don't consider Demolition that much of a big draw, they were the hottest tag team in the WWF at one point, however they declined due to the additions of teams like The British Bulldog's, The Hart Foundation and, of course The Legion Of Doom. As for the Nasty Boy's, barring their Florida Championship work in the late 80's..they quickly became stale and failed to make that much of an impression in either WWF or WCW. In fact, most people know Brian Knobb's for his 'Pit-Stop' gimmick in the late 1990's, wrestling hardcore matches against 3 Count in WCW

 

Your criteria is a lot different than mine. You seem to be putting emphasis on how over/famous teams were where I couldn't give a shit about that for the purposes of this discussion.

 

Also most people don't know Brian Knobbs at all.

 

So what is the purpose of your discussion? First of all you derailed my thread and then claimed that PG-13 are in the top 10 greatest tag teams...When stating that, you have to consider all elements including wrestling ability, athletic prowess, marketability and of course how over a team is. If its workrate you are looking at, then you should have specified that clearly in your post.

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Where did I claim PG-13 was in the top 10 greatest tag teams?

 

I deliberately started this thread so that your thread would not be derailed any further by the way.

 

Anyone familiar with my posts/posting over the years (i.e. pretty much everyone here) knows I was talking about in ring work and not over all as an act.

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I don't consider Demolition that much of a big draw, they were the hottest tag team in the WWF at one point, however they declined due to the additions of teams like The British Bulldog's, The Hart Foundation and, of course The Legion Of Doom.

Hang on, didn't both The Bulldogs and the Hart Foundation pre-date the Demos? I think even the original Moondog version of them didn't appear until early 87. Bulldogs were pretty much towards the end by then and Bret Hart had his little singles run in 88.

 

Demoltion were hot in 88 and still hot in 89 even after dropping the belts to Arn and Tully - watch their Wrestlemania VI match against Haku and Andre for the crowd. What really killed them were the Road Warriors coming in forcing them to turn heel, Ax getting old and then Crush coming in. We get Repo Man before the end of 91 and before long the Pineapple Crush.

 

Sorry, I'm really patchy on some areas, and know others a bit too well. I really disliked Demolition by the way, and still do. I ranted about it somewhere on the Flairchop site:

 

Anyway, I’m 100% with you on Demolition sucking, I always thought they sucked hard. I mean what did they ever do? Forearm smash? Double axe-handle. And that was about it. I’m a weird wrestling fan though, I was even ironic and arch as an 8 year old, so I never EVER liked anything I was meant to think was cool. I mean I hated Warrior and Hogan. I rooted for the heels from day 1. I think Rick Rude winning the IC belt at Wrestlemania 6 was one of the highlights of my youth because I was just so happy for Heenan. I was a total mark, but like the wrong way round. Anyway, Demolition are one of those teams people have real love for that I’ve never understood.

 

Also, I’ve got to admit that as much as EVERYONE goes on about them being a Road Warriors rip off, I just don’t see it. The Road Warriors wore big metal spikes and had mohawks and they were absolutely stacked. They’d steamroller teams and they were always bad ass (even though being me, I never *liked* them either). Demolition look absolutely nothing like the Road Warriors, they look like Kiss – of “God Gave Rock and Roll to You” from the Bill and Ted soundtrack fame. As you pointed out, Ax was bloody fat man. And he was clearly in his 40s. And Smash was fucking Repo Man a few years later. On what planet does a fat middle-aged guy and the future Repo Man dressed as members of Kiss = Road Warriors rip offs? Tell me that Dre! Powers of Pain, I can see how they were rip offs, same build, same power wrestling style, same haircuts and face paint. But Demolition? I don’t see it. Can you ever see the Road Warriors being managed by Fuji and using a cheap cane finish?

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Where did I claim PG-13 was in the top 10 greatest tag teams?

This is the second time you've said that, so here's what you said:

 

Are there ten teams better than them? Maybe but I'm not sure of it. Are there 20 teams better? I'd say almost certainly not. PG-13 deserve a retrospective at some point.

You make it a hedge, but it's pretty easy for people to read into it that you were thinking they're Top 10.

 

You could clear it up:

 

"I think PG-13 is somewhere between 11-20."

 

:)

 

John

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I'm aware of what I wrote John. The whole point of this thread was to see WHERE I would rate them when I actually started looking at them in relation to other teams some of which I hadn't even really thought about comparing them too. I was doubtful there were 20 teams I would find definitively better than them but I wanted to be able to compare and look at things straight up and discuss their strengths and look at them compared to other teams. Do you have anything of substance to add to the thread or are you just in here to let us know you are reading?

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Couple of PG-13 matches from the '96 yearbook that I'd highly recommend. They are babyfaces in both of these matches.

 

From USWA TV 01/20/96:

 

PG-13 vs Tracy Smothers & Jesse James Armstrong

 

Unless something else on this set tops it, this is the best thing Road Dogg has ever been part of in his life! Tremendous old school tag match that goes to a time-limit draw. It's built around destroying Jamie Dundee's knee, with Smothers and Armstrong doing all sorts of nasty things and working really stiff. The post-match brawl has almost every heel in the promotion ganging up on PG-13 and Smothers gets in some brutal flagpole shots on Dundee's knee. Very good match, great segment.

 

From USWA TV 02/17/96:

 

PG-13 vs Tracy Smothers & Jesse James Armstrong

 

So this is Brandon Baxter? He wears a tuxedo without a shirt and has hair like a member of the one-hit wonder group of the early 90s Nelson. Awesome! Outstanding match! It's like they were playing on every cliched Southern tag finish you can think of and then not ending the match that way. There were at least five times I was sure this was the finish, and the match kept going. Going through them all would give away too much of the element of surprise in watching this for yourself, but this was great! Jesse James Armstrong is the lesser guy of everyone involved in this match, but who knew ROAD DOGG had the ability to stick to a role and be a perfectly acceptable heel in a series of really strong Southern tags.

 

Speaking of Road Dogg, after the match, Brandon Baxter tears into him for losing the match, saying he doesn't associate with losers, and Smothers ends up attacking him from behind and getting a check from Baxter for his deed.

 

I love Memphis. In spite of the world changing around them, they stay consistent and are still very Memphis in everything they do. I'd be tempted to call it staying true to their principles if it wasn't a territory run by such slimeballs.

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To put the 2/17 match in perspective, when I ranked everything for '96, it fell in the top 100. That may not seem like huge praise, but consider that I had it above matches that people generally like (and that I like), matches like Liger/Togo at the Skydiving J and Austin/Mero at King of the Ring.

 

In '96, I'd also easily call Wolfie D the best babyface in wrestling. The whole story of PG-13 as babyfaces forced to split, then feuding, then re-uniting as heels takes place over the course of the entire year and is one for the ages.

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I'm aware of what I wrote John. The whole point of this thread was to see WHERE I would rate them when I actually started looking at them in relation to other teams some of which I hadn't even really thought about comparing them too. I was doubtful there were 20 teams I would find definitively better than them but I wanted to be able to compare and look at things straight up and discuss their strengths and look at them compared to other teams. Do you have anything of substance to add to the thread or are you just in here to let us know you are reading?

To be fair, I was about to write almost the same thing John wrote. The way you wrote it made it seem like you thought PG-13 were a borderline top 10 team then you kept asking "where did i say that"?

 

I'm not a big memphis guy so I haven't seen a lot of PG-13 but I did like what I saw. Calling them top 10 or even top 20 was an eyebrow-raiser for me though. I'm looking forward to checking out the matches Loss pointed out and see if that causes me to re-evaluate.

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I would recommend people watch the PG-13 v. Dudz match from Hardcore Heaven 97 if you want a quick look at what makes them such a good team. It is the only time I can ever recall seeing the Dudz work a match that way and while they did a good job on their end I think it is evident who was guiding them. It's also notable because they work face and the Dudz work Southern heel. Some may not like it as much as I do, but I think everyone would think it was an impressive performance.

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Just for the hell of it, I went through the WCW and WWF tag champions of the 1990s to see where I would put PG-13 in comparison. We'll start with WCW first. I am not going to mention every champion but I'll mention some of the names mentioned in this thread and some that intrigue me for one reason or another.

 

WCW

Doom

- I like Doom more than most but PG-13 are better on the mic and had better matches.

 

Michael Hayes and Jimmy Garvin

- Both men were way past their prime here. I have joked with Phil and Loss how Hayes went from being one of the coolset people ever in the 80s to one of the uncoolest people ever in the 90s.

 

Steiners

- For me, this is a style issue. If you like the Steiners throwing bombs, stiffing dudes and going to war, I can't fault people for liking them more than PG-13. However, if we are talking about smartly worked matches, PG-13 wins this in a landslide. When I watch a Steiners match, I always have fun watching it but not everything in the match always makes sense in the ring.

 

The Enforcers

- I like both guys but Arn's best tag team was with Tully and I like Larry Z as a singles guy better.

 

Arn Anderson & Bobby Eaton

-Once again, both guys were on better teams and I never bought that these guys were working together as one organism.

 

Gordy & Doc

- I love both of these guys but the WCW run was underwhelming and they were not over either. In All Japan, they wouldn't even crack my Top 5. I like both more as singles wrestlers.

 

Steamboat & Dustin

- Makeshift tag team.

 

Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes

- See, this is a team that should have lasted longer and might have been in the discussion. I know people talk about the Blondes run being cut off way too short. That is how I feel about Dustin/Barry.

 

Steamboat/ Douglas

- This is another team that didn't last too long but I liked the dynamic and they had some really good matches.

 

Hollywood Blondes

- Dylan already talked about how they were over-rated and how the parts were greater than the sum.

 

Arn Anderson & Paul Roma

- Maybe the worst tag partner Arn has ever had

 

Nasty Boys

- Man, great gimmick but such a hit or mainly miss tag team. For every street fight or Steiners match, there are probably ten horrible matches they have been involved in.

 

Scorpio & Bagwell

- A very under-rated tag team but not on PG-13s level. If they would have stuck it out, I could see them as a tag team people still talked about today but they suffer from the constant changing of the guard in WCW front offices.

 

Cactus Jack & Kevin Sullivan

- Fun tag team.

 

Paul Orndorff & Paul Roma

- I don't even remember this.

 

Bagwell and the Patriot

- Or this

 

Harlem Heat

-Dogshit team. Seriously, can anyone name a good Harlem Heat match and actually explain why it is good and not just list it? Cool ring gear though.

 

Bunkhouse Buck & Dick Slater

- Could have been a contender for best ever... 10 years earlier

 

American Males

- I am missing 2 Cold Scorpio around this time.

 

Sting & Lex Luger

- As I mentioned in my previous thread, these guys work great on the buddy system but were never lasted long enough to be thought of twice. Also, they were wrestling some shit teams in 1996.

 

The Outsiders

- Fuck, I loved watching these guys in 96-97 but the matches sucked.

 

Ignoring all of the random NWO Black vs. NWO Red stuff and Rick Steiner stuff

 

Curt Hennig & Barry Windham

- I liked the Outlaws but I don't even know if this was the best version of the team. After you dump the Vanilla Midgets, was anyone blown away by the Master P/ Filthy Animals stuff?

 

Benoit & Malenko

- I'll consider both their WCW and ECW stints and again, this was a pair of guys who were better in the buddy system but were never running as a tag team for more than a few months at a time.

 

Billy Kidman/Konnan & Rey Mysterio

- Buddy System

 

Triad

- Buddy System

 

The rest of 1999 sucked. At this point, PG-13 is better than every WCW championship team IMO save maybe the Steiners. It will be interesting to see where they stand against the WWF and ECW teams.

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If people want to see PG13 really shine, they should watch the feud with Doug Gilbert and Tommy Rich from 1995. They had some great matches together and some wild bloody brawls. I think that feud really started PG13 in the right direction leading to the SMW feud.

 

Has anyone ever seen PG13's matches from Mexico?

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WWF

Demolition

- Christ, I have never been fans of this team. As an NWA kid in the 80s, when I first saw them I was one of those guys who instantly thought "Roadie Ripoff". As for matches, I don't think they have but a handful of good/great matches. The Rumble angle where they squared off as #1 and 2 was cool but I would rather watch 100 PG-13 matches over any Demo match.

 

Hart Foundation

- Man, I loved the Harts as a kid but Neidhart was clearly a weak link and had no problem resting in the middle of the tag match when he could have just tagged out to Bret when he needed a breather. I am not as down on WWF tag style as Dylan but another team where I would rather watch PG-13 work.

 

Nasty Boys

- See WCW

 

Road Warriors

- As far as image goes, no tag team is cooler. However, anytime they had a good match it was because they were in with a super workrate team like the MX, the All Japan aces or the Brainbusters.

 

Money Inc.

- Two guys past their prime who I could care less if I ever saw another one o their matches.

 

Natural Disasters

- Ok, so for their size, I can see how they work within their limitations. Still, give me that one defining ND match. Just one that would topple the best of the PG-13 matches.

 

Steiners

- See above

 

Quebecers

- I liked their shtick when they turned heel where they talked like faces, wrestled like heels and soaked in the fans boos. I enjoyed thier Steiner matches and Owen/Bret match. Does anyone consider them a top WWF tag team, much less one of the greatest tag teams of all time?

 

Marty Jannetty & 123 Kid

- Makeshift team

 

Men on a Mission

- No

 

Headshrinkers

- Man, I don't remember 1994 Shrinkers but I love the SST in the 80s. I think the SST should be in the conversation of super tag teams that don't get their due as I loved them in TX and the NWA.

 

Diesel and Shawn

- Hey, they had the match from Action Zone. +5

 

123 Kid & Bob Holly

- Makeshift team

 

Smoking Gunns

- Ugh, two mediocre wrestlers who have never had a great tag match.

 

Owen Hart & Yokozuna

- Behind the Steiners as the 2nd best tag champs up to this point from the 90s.

 

The Bodydonnas

- I am ashamed that I can't recall watching a single Donnas match.

 

The Godwinns

- Dogshit

 

Owen & Bulldog

- Buddy System

 

HBK/Foley & Austin

- Makeshift teams

 

Headbangers

- Mediocre. Is there a great Headbangers match out there?

 

New Age Outlaws

- Best match was a garbage match against Funk & Foley that wouldn't rank on the Top Twenty of Funk or Foley garbage matches.

 

Funk & Foley

- Buddy System

 

Kane & Mankind

- Buddy System/ Makeshift/ Russo bullshit

 

1999 - Man, way too many makeshift champions at the height of Russo stupidity but there are a few worth mentioning or have already been mentioned.

 

Owen & Jarrett

- Too short of a run and no standout matches

 

Hardy Boyz

- I really like the Hardy Boyz. I don't know where I would place them but it took until the Hardy boyz for me to even think of another standout tag team since the Hart Foundation 9 years earlier.

 

E&C

- Lump these two guys in the Hardy mold where it ultimately depends if you like that trainwreck stunt-show style more than classic southern tag wrestling. As personalities,

 

 

-- Again, we can make a case that PG-13 are better than nearly every tag team champion in the WWF in the 90s from an in-ring & longevity perspective.

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Guest Rob Naylor

I'll give this a try......

 

WCW

Doom

 

- Yo, FUCK Doom. Highly overrated. And I love Ron Simmons, but they kinda sucked the life out of the NWA tag gold in 1990.

 

Michael Hayes and Jimmy Garvin

- Yeah, this was pretty bad. It's crazy that in 1989, Hayes and Garvin were both good workers and by 1990, they just were way more immobile and out of shape and Will is right, they got uncool REAL fast.

 

 

Steiners

- These dudes are amazing. Top 3 all time tag team for this guy. Just fucked people up in the ring left and right. High Impact offense that changed the game. Both were great bumpers too. Tag team innovation out thaaaa assssss.

 

The Enforcers

- These dudes were boring. Arn is super awesome, and I love Larry Z as a human being, but ehhhhh. Nothing I'd watch twice.

 

 

Arn Anderson & Bobby Eaton

- overrated as hell and a team that underwhelmed in all aspects. Don't think they had that ONE great match, save maybe the match with Dustin/Barry at Clash 19. Although I was really looking forward to when they were put with Hayes as the manager to go after Gordy and Doc. Which never happened.

 

Gordy & Doc

- Top 10 team for me. I mean, I kinda get that some find them overrated based on their work in the states, but I just think the Japanese style of lots of holds in every match in the early going just didn't translate. But their All Japan stuff puts them so far ahead of PG-13 it's not even funny.

 

Steamboat & Dustin

- EH.

 

Barry Windham & Dustin Rhodes

- Loved these guys in a tag team. Liked them way more than Shane and Steamer. Wish they would have feuded for a year or at least given us a goddamn singles ppv match when the team split in late 92.

 

Steamboat/ Douglas

- Eh.

 

Hollywood Blondes

- Loved this team. Waaaay more than Will and Dylan. Both took great bumps at this time of their careers and they had simplistic heel offense that worked for what they were going for and just interacted so well with each other and the crowd. Ya know, I'd seriously consider them in my top 10 the more I think about it. Loved them vs. Scorp and Bagwell.

 

Arn Anderson & Paul Roma

- See, I love Roma. But don't remember this team. At the time, I remember being more stoked for Roma (who I think is sooo unfairly judged, he was great in 90/91/92/93/94 esp that last year... Roma was bigtime improved in 94 in particular.

 

Nasty Boys

-I loved the Nasty's. Learned from Stevens, Bock, Hennig, Adonis, Orton and Buddy Rose. These dudes both "got" tag team wrestling down pat when they needed too, but were also really great brawlers. Top 15 for me.

 

Scorpio & Bagwell

- Consider me a fan of these guys for sure.

 

Cactus Jack & Kevin Sullivan

- Eh. Cactus was in his prime though here, imo. So he at least tried.

 

Paul Orndorff & Paul Roma

- Pretty Wonderful vs. the Fantastics from a random 1994 Worldwide was probably better than any PG 13 tag I've ever watched, all cause of Roma being on goddamn fire in the match, but these guys didn't get any favors with opposition.

 

Bagwell and the Patriot

- Yo, FUCK this team. Ew.

 

Harlem Heat

- These guys peaked in Global as the Ebony Experience. The more mass they put on, just seemed like they lost a step. Booker would lean down here and there and gain mobility, but ultimately, I agree with Will that they weren't even really a "good" team. There's like 200 teams on the indies right in the last ten years that shit all over them.

 

Bunkhouse Buck & Dick Slater

- Garbage tag team. Worst team ever, imo. Dickie Slater post 1985 was worthless. Awesome in his prime, but yeah, no. Buck sucked. Jimmy Golden and Fuller this team was not.

 

American Males

- I actually liked this team. Scott Riggs was underrated as a utility babyface. He wasn't flashy, but he didn't do anything wrong in the ring.

 

Sting & Lex Luger

- Yo, I marked out sooo hard when Lex turned good in 88 and this team was able to be formed and won the Crockett Cup. But they never really reached their potential. But we'll always have that Steiners match.

 

The Outsiders

- These guys were better than people give them credit for. Both men very smart workers who played to their strenghts. For the amount of people that give garbage like Mark Henry props for being "uh... good in his role" .... THESE two motherfuckers were just that. Great in their roles. Smart tag wrestling backgrounds put to good use.

 

 

Curt Hennig & Barry Windham

-- Garbage. And these are two of my all time favorite wrestlers. But in 1999, they were sooooo done.

 

Benoit & Malenko

- Loved this team. If dude didn't go and kill people, I'd push for them to be number one or two ever. But now I just kinda erase them.

 

Billy Kidman/Konnan & Rey Mysterio - Kidman and Rey were a great lil tag team for sure. Konnan and Rey were good too. But not as good as PG 13.

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1. Too Much/Cool

2. The All American Males

3. Jim Duggan and Nikolai Volkoff

4. Demolition

5. The Harris/Blu/DOA Brothers

6. The Johnson's

7. The Basham Brothers

8. Axl and Ian Rotten

9. Right To Censor (Bull Buchanan and The Goodfather)

10. The Nasty Boys

1. lol

2. lol

3. Not sure, haven't seen enough of them but I'm doubtful.

4. Workrate = no. Overall, maybe.

5. Nope.

6. Haven't seen enough of them to properly comment on.

7. They were awesome in OVW where technical wrestling was appreciated but the WWF dropped the ball almost entirely with the team.

8. Yeah...

9. Nope. Not even close, man.

10. They had two excellent hardcore brawls with Cactus Jack outside of that, I am drawing a blank as to where their real significance lays. Sure, they had longevity as a team, had foreign tours, were in a movie, but outside of that, I wouldn't personally rank them above PG-13.

 

I'm enjoying your write-ups Dylan, and I will provide more commentary later on today/tonight/tomorrow morning :)

 

 

I did state that those were teams off the top of my head that I thought PG-13 were better than

 

@Dylan Waco, who was confused over it being a troll post...Those are ten teams in my opinion whose overall work rate and credibility as a tag team is less than that of PG-13

 

I don't consider Demolition that much of a big draw, they were the hottest tag team in the WWF at one point, however they declined due to the additions of teams like The British Bulldog's, The Hart Foundation and, of course The Legion Of Doom. As for the Nasty Boy's, barring their Florida Championship work in the late 80's..they quickly became stale and failed to make that much of an impression in either WWF or WCW. In fact, most people know Brian Knobb's for his 'Pit-Stop' gimmick in the late 1990's, wrestling hardcore matches against 3 Count in WCW

 

Your criteria is a lot different than mine. You seem to be putting emphasis on how over/famous teams were where I couldn't give a shit about that for the purposes of this discussion.

 

Also most people don't know Brian Knobbs at all.

 

So what is the purpose of your discussion? First of all you derailed my thread and then claimed that PG-13 are in the top 10 greatest tag teams...When stating that, you have to consider all elements including wrestling ability, athletic prowess, marketability and of course how over a team is. If its workrate you are looking at, then you should have specified that clearly in your post.

 

PG-13 definitely aren't an "Angle".
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Should we make this debate a sub-forum of its own? I mean, a thread with this many teams tossed around already, I think we should do a DVDVR styled voting/each team against PG-13 thread. This thread alone would be a organizational nightmare. PG-13 deserves a better effort then that.

 

Plus it satisfies our collective argumentative obsessions.

 

Who knows, it could be fun or something :)

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Guest Rob Naylor

Demolition

- I too thought these guys were Roadie ripoffs. But they were very good. Again, a team that had waaay more talent than they showed wrestling wise, but that was the point. I thought Ax was one of the best brawlers of the 80's. If he didn't go to Demolition, I'd have enjoyed a ton of Masked Superstar late 80's feuds. I'd pick PG-13 over them tho, just more my speed.

 

Hart Foundation

- Loved the Harts. I'd have no prob putting them over PG 13. Really the perfect compliments to each other. Anvil's hot tags were soooo fun. He was underrated as a babyface and heel tag worker. Loved his shoulder tackles into the corner. The matches with the Islanders, Rougeaus, Bulldogs, Killer Bees were all very good tag bouts.

 

Nasty Boys

- See WCW

 

Road Warriors

- I'd put them over PG 13. They are a top five team for me. Just the coolest fucking team ever. I thought Animal got actively good the older he got and Hawk was a fucking awesome brawler.

 

Money Inc.

- What Will said. Boring as fuck.

 

Natural Disasters

- LOVED this team. Wish it got a longer sustained run. I think Ottman was quite good and gets a bit of a bad wrap. His big splash was awesome. He took big bumps when need be as well. And Earthquake totally ruled. But I'd put PG over these guys. Actually, with the size difference, THIS would have made for an AWESOME PG 13 match up!

 

Steiners

- See above

 

Quebecers

- I dug the Quebecers more than most. They had tandem offense out the ass. Which is what I look for in most great tag teams. Rougeau was the gimmick and Pierre was the worker in the ring.

 

Marty Jannetty & 123 Kid

- Very good team. Would have been great but never got a long run. Also... another team that VERSUS PG 13 would have completely torn the fucking house down.

 

Men on a Mission

- I liked MOM... but nah.

 

Headshrinkers

- Really love this team. Ya know what... this might be one of the most underrated teams ever. I'd seriously consider them in my top ten teams ever. Never had "bad" showings really. I'm talking Samu and Fatu, by the way.

 

Diesel and Shawn

- Action Zone tag is possibly the best tag team match of all time, imo. So that alone might give them an edge on P3-13.

 

123 Kid & Bob Holly

- This team was real fun. Absolutely loved their run with the Guns.

 

Smoking Gunns

- Disagree with Will. Thought these guys had incredible matches with both the Headshrinkers in 1993 *great at taking ass kickings and selling*, they had really good babyface tag bouts with Kid and Holly in early 95 and got some good stuff out of Hart and Yoko.

 

Owen Hart & Yokozuna

- HATED that Yoko was in this team and not Benoit, but looking back, this was a real goddamn good team. Why they didn't have along run with Fatu/Samu, I'll never know.

 

The Bodydonnas

- These guys could have been great, but only really got a chance to wrestle the Godwins and Guns. A What If? team if there ever was one.

 

The Godwinns

- Will is waaaay too harsh. Mark Canterbury was actively good. Slashinger knew his place.... they weren't so bad. But yeah, nowhere close to top team.

 

Owen & Bulldog

- Totally fair to use this team in the debate. I'd say they weren't as good as PG 13. They underachieved as a team.

 

HBK/Foley & Austin

- Makeshift teams

 

Headbangers

- I'd say flat out awful. Possible worse than Buck and Slater, actually the more I think about it.

 

New Age Outlaws

- I liked these guys. Road Dogg was so charismatic and a great brawler and Gunn was in his athletic prime. But not as good as PG 13.

 

Funk & Foley

- Eh. Love both these humans, but Funk was on a downward spiral at this pont.

 

Kane & Mankind

- Don't even remember this.

 

1999 - Man, way too many makeshift champions at the height of Russo stupidity but there are a few worth mentioning or have already been mentioned.

 

Owen & Jarrett

- Eh.

 

Hardy Boyz

- Loved these guys around this time. I'd put them right with PG 13.

 

E&C

- These guys ruled too, but they are a notch below.

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