The poor sportsmanship of Hulk Hogan

[smkelly]

The road runner one was awesome too.

[khawk20]

Bugs got squashed pretty hard in Family Guy because Elmer showed up like Brock Lesnar.

At a certain point in ones career, even the biggest in the biz will do the job if the money is right.

[khawk20]

I'd love to have seen a Bugs-Baby Kangaroo series, too. Could Bugs bring out the rage in the gentle simpleton, or would the Baby merely fall for all of Bugs' tricks and get squashed?

 

It's either a huge hit or a giant flop...no in-between with that program.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Yeah, Foghorn was a total heel. Such an asshole heel that like MD says, you rooted for the Dog and Henrey to fuck over Foghorn.

 

Tweety was closer to the old school Tweener Face, or more accurately a forerunner of the Modern Kick Ass Heel like Stone Cold. Tweety had a nasty and evil streak of beating the shit out of the various cats, especially Sylvester. Yes, the cats deserved an ass stomping just as much as the heels deserved Stone Cold opening up a can of whip ass on them. Bugs was a thinking man's bastard babyface. Tweety... that innocent "babyface" grill of his... yeah it fooled Granny, but we all knew he was one nasty motherfucker.

 

A Face vs Face match between Bugs vs Tweety would have been a war. One suspects that Bugs would have decided at the start of the feud to sell and bump for Tweety like he did for Cecil, since Bugs would do what was right for the promotion. But Tweety is such a nasty little bugger that at some point Bugs would have snapped off on his arrogant two faced no selling ass and just put the Bird down. Bugs was like Hogan: he was far smarter and more dangerous that people inside Warners thought he was. If Tweety got a big head and didn't let Bugs get his heat back, Bugs would have booked Tweety into a corner, and when the Bird thought he would be going over, Bugs would have shot on him and gotten the fall. He also would have turned the entire Warners front office on Tweety, and gotten the little fucker fired.

 

At that point, where could Tweety have gone? Disney wouldn't have wanted him. No way Mickey would work with him, Goofy wouldn't have wanted to stooge for someone so nasty, and Daffy would have spread rumors about Tweety with Disney Creative because Daffy wouldn't want any real competition in being the top bird on the Disney pecking order.

 

MGM? Tom and Jerry would have had none of it. They still were pissed off over Tweety stealing the 1948 Oscar from them, one of only three Oscars the legendary duo failed to win between 1943-52... and the one that broke up their streak of four straight wins. Folks may think that Tom & Jerry were a laid back pair off camera, but they were competative as all hell, and took their "art" serious. I mean... Jerry worked with The Man of Dance Gene Kelly, and Jerry busted his ass to hold up his end of the match. T&J saw Tweety & Sylvester as a cheap rip off of Cat & Mouse dressed up as Cat & Bird. They would have walked out of MGM before letting Tweety join the promotion.

 

Tweety would have been forced to work with the garbage annimation promotion of the era: Walter Lantz Studio. And let's be honest that Lantz, the Paul Heyman of Annimation, would only have broght Tweety in to put over Woody before moving down the card to job to Chilly Willy.

 

Yeah... it's too bad that Tweety wasn't booked with Bugs. By the 60s, Tweety would have been out of the business, pawned his Oscar to support his booze habit, and eventually caught trying to posion Granny to inherit her money. No one from the business turned out to be a character witness in his defense at the trial, and he got sent to the slammer.

 

Bugs always would have pointed out to anyone who listened that all Tweety needed to do was work an even steven program and he would still be in the business making money.

 

"Tweety was always all about Tweety. He didn't respect the business or the people in it. In the end, no one wanted to have anything to do with him."

-Bugs

 

"I never say anything bad about anyone, even that annoying Duck. But Tweety... he was a nasty little bastard. No one was sorry to see him leave the promotion."

-Porky

 

 

John

Bravo.

 

 

Although I never rooted for the Dog or Henrey over Foghorn. Foghorn was one of my heroes.

 

And I totally agree that eventually you cheered for Wile E. against Road Runner. The one where Wile E. explains to the children WHY he wants to eat the Road Runner truly embodied the old "The best heels are the ones who think they're in the right" deal. Legs that taste like a Double Martini? Who wouldn't want to eat a Road Runner?

 

[Bob Morris]

Yes, when Wile E. explained to everyone why he wanted to catch the Road Runner, it was the same one in which a kid said the same thing we all felt deep down, "Sometimes I wish the Coyote would catch the Road Runner."

 

Really, where the Road Runner was weak was that there was no way he could play the heel. He was so one-dimensional. And that's the real reason why, deep down, we wanted Wile E. to catch the Road Runner. Nobody wants to cheer for a one-dimensional face for long.

 

That wasn't a problem for Bugs, who was multi-dimensional and could take on a lot of roles, work face or heel just as effectively and mesh with a variety of opponents.

 

I mean, does anyone really think a Road Runner short would work with Elmer Fudd? Or Daffy Duck? Or even Tweety? Really, who wants to see a Tweety vs. Road Runner face matchup? Tweety may have been stuck mostly working with Sylvester, but you could throw another heel into the mix and he would have found a way to make it work. Not Road Runner.

 

And Daffy may have been No. 2 in the promotion but he got to work a lot of main events. If you didn't have Bugs in the main event, Daffy was the first guy you'd turn to. So while Daffy may not have liked playing second fiddle to Bugs, he knew darn well he was that valuable to the Warner Bros. promotion and, if he left, Warner Bros wouldn't have had as a reliable an option to fall back on... especially since Porky was aging.

 

[JerryvonKramer]

Daffy = Randy Savage

[sek69]

Daffy = Randy Savage

 

That works on several levels when you include the crazy factor.

[Victator]

I've been looking for that Road Runner diagram for a long time. Thanks Johnny

[jdw]

Great stuff on Road Runner, Bob.

 

I see Road Runner as a Ricky Steamboat / Ricky Morton style Ultimate Babyface. They really only could play babyface in their prime, and were near perfect examples of it. Road Runner didn't sell for Wil E., but that pretty much was the genre: babyfaces didn't do a lot of selling. Bugs didn't sell a lot. Early face Daffy didn't sell much. Jerry didn't sell much for Tom, though probably worked "fear" more than Bugs.

 

Road Runner didn't need to sell because the RR-Coyote Match was all about Wil E. heeling, stooging and bumping big. No one really wanted to see Road Runner go heel, and like you point out, it's not like he could have worked it like Bugs did against Cecil.

 

On the other hand, I don't think most of the fans rooted for Wil E., anymore than most fans rooted against Steamboat or Morton. There were always some fans who rooted against those guys, rooted for the heels... but let's be honest that they were just Heel Fans who were jealous of Steamer, Morton and Road Runner.

 

Road Runner would have had a hard time working a long term feud with Elmer just because of format. Who hunts long term a road runner? It might have worked as a one-off novelty match, but would have been tough to pull off, not just because of RR but also Elmer's character.

 

RR-Daffy... that's one where the characters don't quite mesh because what are Daffy's motivations for going after RR, and how does he go about it? On the other hand, we do need to admit that Daffy was an off the charts heel who could work with damn near anyone, and was one creative worker on the screen who if forced could think of something. Daffy would work a jealously angle, which he always did well, and then go Wil E. on the RR in trying to come up with ways to screw over RR. I wouldn't at all put it past Daffy to make it work, and with a master like Chuck Jones laying it out backstage with the two, it would have a chance to by a Short of the Year Candidate. We know that Daffy would have gone all out.

 

Now I totally agree that Tweety-RR wouldn't work, but we probably agree where the blame would fall: that little bastard Tweety. You can't work face vs face with RR: someone needs to be heel, and like with Morton and Steamer, it couldn't be RR.

 

One of two things would happen. Tweety just might refuse to work the match and play heel. That's actually better than the alternative. The worst thing that could happen is Tweety agreeing to do the match, then just try to steal all of RR's heat by not bumping or stooging for him. Think Brody vs Lex, with RR getting that look on his face as the short goes on: "What the fuck is going on here? What's gotten into this guy?" It would just be a massive train wreck, and really not because of RR. Luckily, Warners Creative was smart enough never to book themselves into that mess.

 

I'm 100% in agreement with the Daffy comments. No doubt he has some personal resentment over Bugs passing him by, despite the fact that Daffy entered the promotion earlier and was already a main eventer when Bugs came along, even working Hunter Matches before Bugs.

 

That also could have blown up when Daffy was booked into putting over Bugs in match after match. But Daffy was a total pro. He "channeled" that resentment into creating new depth to his character, let it hang out in fake-shoot spots on the mic to build up heat. Unlike Kevin Nash or Triple H, Daffy never used those fake-shoot comments to cut Bugs down, but instead to set himself up for more bumping and stooging.

 

Bugs was Hogan, but a much better worker. Daffy was Savage like others pointed out. Great worker, great star, maybe underrated to some fans because Bugs was so big, but a massive star in his own right who could work with damn near anyone and have a good match, and at his best pull off some all-time classics.

 

"People want me to bad mouth the Duck. Yes, he was quirky, tough to understand, and not easy to get close to outside of the shorts. He wasn't one to go out for beers with the rest of the crew. But when the camera was rolling, or when you were laying things out backstage, he was a total pro focused on giving the fans a great short. No one ever gave more out there."

-Porky

 

"Look, we all know he hated working that long feud with Speedy. Horrible booking, bad storylines, the booking committee was burned out, some of us had left, and production had gone to hell. But you can see Daffy busting his ass to make that mouse look good in those shorts, even if they're largely awful. That's a pro: even handed crap to work with, he tried to make the most out of it."

-Chuck Jones

 

 

John

[Bob Morris]

I wouldn't call Road Runner like Steamboat or Morton. Steamer and Morton may have been two guys you didn't want to boo, but they could work with a variety of opponents and were believable as challengers to Ric Flair... and Steamer was believable as a guy to take the title from Flair. Morton wasn't, but you could definitely buy him in main events... you could put him in tag team action in a main event against anyone and fans would buy it.

 

Road Runner was never a main eventer by any stretch of the imagination. He's really the WWF version of Hacksaw Jim Duggan.

[JerryvonKramer]

Wile E. was the draw in that feud without doubt.

[Ricky Jackson]

As far as the recent theme of "comparing wrestling to other things" goes, Road Runner = WWF Jim Duggan is probably the best one yet. Neither would do jobs even though they weren't at the level of a Bugs/Hogan or Daffy/Savage; both came off more annoying than entertaining the older you got as a fan, to the point where you cheered the heel they were matched up against; and both were one-dimensional and reliant on a tired catchphrase ("meep, meep/hooooo!") repeated ad nauseam.

[cabinboy454]

I disagree with anyone saying Road Runner wasn't a draw or wasn't on the level of Bugs or Daffy. One just needs to look at "The Road Runner Show" which ran on CBS from 1966-1968 and then on ABC from 1971-1973, "The Bugs Bunny/Road Runner Show" which ran from 1978 to 1985 on CBS, and the 1979 theatrical release of "The Bugs Bunny/Road Runner Movie." Its obvious Warner Brothers felt Road Runner was quite the draw from the late 60s to mid 80s.

[JerryvonKramer]

Wile E. was the real draw of that show.

[cabinboy454]

Wile E. was the real draw of that show.

The titles of the shows and film were centered around Bugs and Road Runner not Wile E. so one has to assume that Bugs and RR were the draws.

[jdw]

I would totally disagree with the notion that RR wasn't a main eventer.

 

The Bugs cartoons weren't the only main events in the Warner's promotion, as they were like the WWF in the 80s working multiple cards each night. This was one of the great things about Warners: they could work a lot of people into main events so that you weren't getting a Bugs Bunny main event every week at the Mid South Coliseum.

 

Chuck Jones, who had creative control over Road Runner while he was at Warners, was brilliant in not wearing out RR. He limited RR to 1-3 matches a year, all huge draws as fans wanted to see what happened next in the RR-Coyote feud.

 

It was totally unlike the later Daffy vs Speedy feud that was forced to be a main event feud in the declining days of the studio, got run into the ground and just plain sucked. As long as Chuck was around, they were always among the most highly anticipated main events of the year. When Chuck was dumped by Warners, you quickly saw what would happen in someone else's hands: 14 shorts in less than two years, one of many examples of the promotion going off the rails.

 

Road Runner was closer to Andre in how Jones conservatively booked him. You knew you were getting something special. And like Andre, Road Runner needed a special heel to work against to make the Road Runner Match work. Wil E. was perfect in that role. RR was iconic, as were the matches. Even things like ACME became household words.

 

Wil E. was so great of a stooge heel that he was a bit like The Destroyer working as "Dr. X" in the AWA when Jones gave him the Ralph E. Wolf gimmick to work with Sam Sheepdog in a special midcard feud. They didn't quite want to have Wil E. openly jobbing to a midcarder like Sam, but in a wink-wink with the fans, they had Ralph work also use ACME products from time-to-time, including in his first match with Sam. It always kept the fans guess, "Is that really a Wolf... or is it the Coyote?!?!"

 

Jones was a awesome booker, knowing how to create major main event programs, how to book midcard feuds, and how to occassionally toss out at the fans those "I don't know what they hell that was, but it was amazing!!!!" matches.

 

Pepe was Jones' Hacksaw Jim Duggan. And it was a sign of just how great of a booker Jones was: Pepe won a freaking Oscar.

 

John

[Mad Dog]

Daffy working Speedy was kind of like Arn jobbing the Television Title to the Renegade. Just all around badness. But you really don't see those much because Warner deems Speedy too racist to play on television now.

 

The really sad thing for Daffy is that Warner was more comfortable with him as a tag worker than they were with him as a solo act. Really, the height of his babyface powers was taking out the Tasmanian Devil before he turned heel and worked the endless Speedy feud. But before that he worked with Porky and he worked with Bugs. Even his big movie roles saw him tagging with Speedy and Porky.

[jdw]

Wile E. was the real draw of that show.

The titles of the shows and film were centered around Bugs and Road Runner not Wile E. so one has to assume that Bugs and RR were the draws.

 

Totally agree. I think we've got a lot of heel fans here, and they're not willing to cut RR slack.

 

RR was a Monster Face, only Bugs was bigger in the Warners promotion. Everybody respected Road Runner because he never tried to steal any of the other face's thunder or try to upstage them. Even through everyone knew that RR brought Wil E. into the business and the two had a tight bond, RR was personally okay with Wil E. working with, and putting over totally, the biggest face in the promotion, Bugs. He also got a kick out of Jones' idea of booking Wil E. under the mask against Sam.

 

This was damn generous of RR too. RR and Wil E. only worked a limited number of matches a year, and to quote Gorilla Monsoon, the Road Runner always came out with the "winners share of the purse". Even though RR-Wil E. were huge gates, and on a per-match basis Wil E. made as much if not more than any heel in the company, it still was only a few dates a year. In contrast, a hardworking heel like Daffy was grinding out good paydays week after week. Being cool with Wil E. working other feuds, especially those big drawing dream matches against Bugs, put good coin in Wil E.'s pockets and food on his table.

 

Like Andre, everyone respected RR.

 

"When Road Runner was on a card, we all made money. Let me tell yah, son... that 'BEEP BEEP' shit done packed the kids in. I would have given my left nut to work with that son-bitch, and by gawd we would have knocked their boots off. But he and the Coyote were magic together... yah don't fuck with pure gold like that."

-Yosemite Sam

 

 

John

[NintendoLogic]

The Road Runner/Wile E. Coyote feud is the ultimate example of the money being in the chase.

[jdw]

The Road Runner/Wile E. Coyote feud is the ultimate example of the money being in the chase.

~!

 

 

John

[Slasher]

Not that I'm not digging the whole Looney Tunes deal or that I'm here to spoil the fun, but this thread is definitely running way off the track.

[Ricky Jackson]

Well, it wasn't exactly the most serious of subjects to begin with.

[FLIK]

Andre? Steamboat? Morton? Hacksaw?

Nope, Road Runner = Manami Toyota

 

Also, i'm surprised this thread's gone so long with no mention of the ultimate tag showdown of Speedy/RR vs Sylvester/Will E

[Mad Dog]

I was actually thinking about bringing that one up. Speedy is just one of my least favorite faces. Well, I hate Tweety more but he's my second least favorite.

[jdw]

Dog: if it wasn't clear from my posts, I'm with you on hating Tweety and Speedy.

 

That's why I was ducking the Road Runner & Speedy vs. Wil E. & Sylvester tag team. I just don't want to see Speedy's "suck heat" dragging Road Runner & Wil E. down.

 

Now... Road Runner & Tweety vs. Wil E. & Sylvester might be interesting because Tweety would get jealous, slap Road Runner and walk out of the match to leave it RR vs Wil E. & Sylvester. Of course RR would overcome the odds with Wil E. & Sylvester stooging out for him. But it would make it obvious to the fans that Tweety was a heel.

 

John