What are you watching?

[Matt D]

I'm a little worried about myself and the lucha 80s project.

 

I saw two matches today. One was the Sangre Chicana vs MS1 hair match from 83.

 

Of the two I saw, I'd probably be more likely to suggest that people watch Stan Lane and John Tenta vs Mil Mascaras and Ultimo Dragon. I'm not saying it was better. Mascaras being Mascaras sort of prevents that. I'm just saying I'd be way more likely to suggest people see the WAR tag.

[goodhelmet]

Yeah lucha may not be for you. That match is pretty iconic.

[Sidebottom]

I'm watching a load of old RF shoot interviews from the 90's. They look dog shit and the questioning is shit, but when the wrestlers get on a roll with their stories, they're brilliant.

[Matt D]

Ok! I am trying more lucha to see if I can deal with this 80s set without being an annoying nuisance. This time Gran Cochisse vs Satanico - 9/18/84. I am going to try to do a write up as I go. This could get painful. I feel like Parv watching a best of Kamala comp here.

 

I have no context at all. I'm going to make an ass out of myself Great. Let's go.

 

I like that Satanico's second has the a mask that fits the second of a guy named Satanico. I liked how both guys posed with the belt. The VQ is a little rough but thankfully they're dressed in a way I can tell them apart easily, so I'm doing pretty well already. That is "stage one." as Dylan put it. Early jockeying for position leading to a waistlock by Satanico and it's a nicely worked waistlock too til Cochisse gets out using momentum and leverage. As they move to a head scissors/pin back and forth I get the feeling that regardless of how much or little I'm going to like everything else, I am going to love the matwork on the set for the SAKE of the matwork. We get some extended Satanico control stuff with the arm with a really cool counter til Satanico just hiptosses Cochisse to hell. Oh Cochisse's rolling waistlock thing is kind of cool and it's there to set up a cradle. They're really just feeling each other out here. There's a lot of the prototypes of more flashy/complex tosses and throws and whips that come years later and I kind of like it better this way. It feels like there's more effort behind it. This is still very back and forth including the prototype of a prototype of the 2000s indy reset. If there's a narrative i'm not quite grasping it. Cochisse seems a bit quicker and Satanico a bit stronger. Nice fly mare that sends Cochisse out but there's no dive. Instead, he comes in, back body drops Satanico and goes for a victory roll only to get dropped on his face and slapped in a cool submission for the first fall. i felt like I was following everything there but I'm still missing the context to really make it mean anything outside the vacuum. It seemed like it was really back and forth, Santanico got one big move but Cochisse got the upper hand immediately thereafter and went for a big pin attempt too early and got caught and lost the fall.

 

Moving on to the second fall. They get right to it. I've been watching portland matches with fairly sizable breaks. Presumably Satanico is going back to where he targetted with that submission and his arm/shoulder work is all pretty cool and nasty looking. I particularly like the headbutt into the shoulder. Cochisse sweeps a leg and does a quick short elbow drop that was almost too low. His arm's hurt though and Satanico's right back on it. He's really stalking his opponent with measured, dickish offense. I can get behind that. It's a bit too measured though and Cochisse reverses, twisting Satanico's arm and driving him to the corner. He's still selling his own, so good on him. He keeps on the arm and keeps selling his own. Everything seems really measured to me. It's minimal but it makes every move resonate more. Great grapevine on a standing armbar but Satanico powers out and just waistlocks Cochisse down cruelly. They end up teasing JYD headbutts before picking up the pace, doing a bunch of stuff that doesn't resonate nearly as much and having another standoff. One thing I do like in this exchange is that when Cochisse armdrags Satanico, Satanico does a momentary sell while getting up which allows Cochisse to keep the momentum and set up his next move. It's all very quick and subtle but it makes everything very believable. This is how Cochisse eventually gets him out.

 

He gets a couple of quick and nice looking flying headbutts and dropkicks when Satanico finally gets in and then hits that victory roll that cost him in the first fall but he uh, well, he helps Satanico roll him back over which lets Satanico take over. Was he going for another move out of there or something? Anyway, Satanico hits a slam, gets a two count. Satanico goes for another slam off the ropes but gets rolled up and Cochisse takes the second fall out of nowhere.

 

Third fall starts with Satanico offering a handshake. Cochisse is dubious because a guy named El Satanico is offering him a handshake. Cochisse slips around and knees him in the spine before hitting the world's slowest spinebuster. Satanico sells it as if his kidney exploded. Sorry that was the world's second spinebuster. He does it again and this time it's the world's slowest one. Satanico makes it work by selling his head like his bell rung allowing for Cochisse to do this cool fireman's carry cradle pin which more people should do. Satanico takes a break in the corner but it doesn't last. He gets slammed into the corner and he's still selling his head like doom. Ha! Cochisse starts slamming his leg over it again and again and again while holding cross arm breaker. The contact lets Satanico slap on a... I guess we'll call this, I feel like an idiot, but it's kind of a Brocklock. I'm going to say he was playing possum with the head. Cochisse uses his foot, locked behind the arm to power his way out. Cool stuff. Then he slaps on a crazy over the back surfboard thing. It's not really a sustainable submission though and Satanico cradles his way out and then does sort of a tiger back cradle roll up. Cochisse kicks out and slaps on a Gory Special. The best part is when he flaps Satanico's arms and Satanico rolls him up out of it again, which is a pattern. Both guys sell the damage hard before Satanico goes back for another pin. Cochisse gets him into this driving neckbreaker submission and I'm wondering how Satanico will turn it into a pin. He doesn't. It's just a hip toss. He tries to put Cochisse into the turnbuckle but with GREAT effort Cochisse reverses it. He then tries to bulldog Satanico out but gets flung into the ropes only to leap up and hit a cross body for a two count. This is all pretty good finishing sequence stuff. They're putting enough oomph into things and fight and meaning that I would buy a fall at just about any point here.

 

Satanico pushes him into the ropes and goes for a charge. Cochisse jumps up and drops down and it almost looks like Satanico gets him in the groin by accident. Cochisse still gets up first (I guess a near miss), hits a dropkick, misses a dropkick as Satanico moves away dickishly. Satanico goes for a complex cradle. Cochisse reverses and goes for an inverted surfboard but Satanico leans back and we get a very close nearfall. Cochisse tries to catch Satanico in a roll up off the ropes but Satanico drops down and we get another close nearfall. Cochisse dropkicks him out of the ring and then off the apron and then hits the dive which means a hell of a lot twenty-something minutes in. Couple more flying headbutts and another tight nearfall. Huge slam off the ropes and a submission attempt that Satanico blocks. Cochisse hits another big slam and that was a little repetitive but he misses the senton. Satanico tries for a submission but gets knocked off. Lots of slow motion shoulder blocks until Satanico moves and locks on a sort of spinebuster of his own straight into a submission for the win.

 

I think maybe I needed a little more context. I probably should have watched the August title change first. This was good. I followed it. There were things in the match that built. I'm not sure if the build matched the payoffs and the payoffs matched the build. I did especially like the second fall. I'm not sure I saw much in this match that I'd consider objectively great relative to, let's say all of the two/three falls matches with Buddy Rose I've been seeing. And that's a high watermark, yes, but this match gets a lot of praise, so I'm not going to compare it to something i don't think is good. Certainly if I started with the best AWA matches of the 80s, I probably would have liked them more, but I gained a lot in watching both all of the matches leading up to them and also a lot of the TV that went along with them. That's not a luxury I'm really going to have here.

[ohtani's jacket]

I think maybe I needed a little more context. I probably should have watched the August title change first.

For some reason I found it amusing that you think you can watch the August title change.

[Matt D]

Ok so that doesn't exist without a time machine. At least we know where my knowledge level is at.

 

Anyway, the more I think about it and the more I compare it to what i've been watching, I see it a lot like this. What I've been watching lately uses the tools and narratives and possibilities of a professional wrestling match very well. It's very tight, and by that I don't mean it's stiff or that it's overly mechanical. I just mean it uses the storytelling devices very well in clever but straightforward ways.

 

I think this did used them well too, but the connective tissue between them and keeping them solid and held together was looser. It almost felt more like the pro wrestling equivalent of Impressionism to me, and I can get why some people might like it, because it gets at some different things and it gets at some of the same things but in a slightly different way.

 

Is that crazy?

[tim]

Yeah lucha may not be for you. That match is pretty iconic.

I definitely wouldn't say that. It's a minimalist match if there ever was one, and it's a very very "lucha" lucha match. Extended rudo beatdown, very simple comeback and then a very 'war of attrition' ending stretch. All those things make it great but to a newcomer to lucha I'm not at all surprised the match could seem boring. I remember the thread on DVDVR when that match was first 'discovered' and everyone touting as a GOAT contender. I was just getting into lucha and was already enjoying a lot of 90s CMLL type stuff but I couldn't get into this match very much at the time. But I kept on watching the lucha I already liked, exposing myself to the more technical and sort of low-key 80s stuff that people were talking up and started to 'get' it more, started really liking it, and some time later I came back and watched that match and absolutely loved it as anyone else who likes the style does.

 

For me lucha was almost something of an acquired taste. There were things I liked right away: a lot of 90s CMLL, contemporary trios, etc, but stuff like maestro mat-based matches and old school brawls/war of attrition fights took me a while to fully appreciate. It's a style you just have to "get" and for me it took some exposure. SO I'd say to everyone get that 80s lucha set, even if you're on the fence in the beginning you might love it come the later disks.

[ohtani's jacket]

Is that crazy?

Not really. I don't know if impressionism is the right analogy, but I think the basic appeal of lucha is seeing a hold done in a way you don't wouldn't expect. Lucha has definite match structures however and this particular match worked in both a narrative sense and as a title match. We are way off though, since Portland 2/3 fall matches to me have the worst rhythm of any two out of three fall matches I've ever seen and I don't think Buddy Rose holds a candle to Satanico on any level.

[Dylan Waco]

What is off about 2/3 falls Portland matches?

[Matt D]

Almost none of the Portland 2/3 matches I've seen so far have been worked the same as any other. The rhythm is different in almost every single match so I'm not sure how that could even be true. There's no generalizing.

[Dylan Waco]

The only constant theme I can think of in Portland 2/3 falls matches is that almost across the board they have an unbending internal logic that crosses falls, with things like first fall limb work paying off twenty minutes later in the third fall.

[NintendoLogic]

I'm have no clue what would make MS-1/Sangre Chicana difficult for a novice to get into. I think it's the most accessible lucha brawl by far.

[Dylan Waco]

I'm have no clue what would make MS-1/Sangre Chicana difficult for a novice to get into. I think it's the most accessible lucha brawl by far.

I generally don't think Lucha brawls are inaccessible. To be honest I don't know if there is a style I find more accessible than a Lucha brawl.

[Matt D]

i don't think it was inaccessible. I just was the guy who ranked Wahoo vs Bock lower than everyone else.

[Loss]

There are exceptions, but lucha is more about tone and rhythm than narrative to me for the most part. That's not to say there are no great in-ring stories told in lucha libre. It's that the point is usually to get over the emotion and urgency of whatever the key issue is more than it is to work a match where each thing that happens logically progresses to the next thing. American wrestling is built around babyface teases. Ricky Morton teases a comeback before he delivers one to signal to the audience that he's still in the fight. That's not lucha libre. They will keep you waiting until they are ready to give you the comeback. It's just a different sensibility.

 

MS-1 vs Sangre Chicana was about making sure you knew they hated each other, and beating that theme to death repeatedly. El Dandy vs Angel Azteca was about making sure we knew these guys were highly skilled mat technicians, and hammering that point home with every sequence and exchange. I find that my favorite lucha libre aims to get the match or feud over as great/important/worth caring about more than it aims to get a specific wrestler over as great/important/worth caring about. My favorite lucha matches are also ones that take a single idea and don't do anything - at all - that isn't designed to sell you on that idea. That singular focus is one of my favorite things about the style.

 

I haven't watched Satanico/Cochisse in quite a while, but I do remember loving it. Then again, title match lucha is my favorite type of wrestling.

[Loss]

I also struggled to get into lucha libre at first, but my challenge was trios matches, not singles matches so much.

[Matt D]

I would honestly love to read more about what I watched tonight (the Satanico match)because I know there had to be a lot of nuance I was missing for this to be considered so strong a match and I do want to understand it, not just dismiss it due to my ignorance even if I tried to dissect it.

[ohtani's jacket]

I have never gotten a feel for the continuity between Portland falls. With lucha I know the end of one fall will overlap the other and with British wrestling I know the rhythm of the rounds system, but the delay between falls in Portland the sense that the falls don't really link has put me off practically all the stuff I've watched. I'm probably not concentrating hard enough, but I sometimes watch a Portland match and think about how I'd alter the length of the falls or change the position of the finishes.

 

Anyway, here's something I wrote about Satanico/Cochisse five or six years ago:

 

Gran Cochisse vs. Satanico, NWA World Middleweight Championship, Arena Mexico 9/14/84

 

This is one of the great lucha matches; a "Greco-Roman" classic with a dramatic shift in paradigm from rudo challenger to numero uno.

 

People often make the mistake of thinking Gran Cochisse was at the end of his career here, but he'd go on to compete for and hold this title for a few more years, as well as capturing the UWA World Junior Light Heavyweight Championship four years later, so he was a formidable middleweight champion at the time. He'd beaten Satanico a month earlier, so this was a return match in true style.

 

Despite being wrestled in the Greco-Roman style, Satanico was clearly a rudo technician. There was nothing illegal in the way he grappled; it was in the details. The way he snapped at the ref that his shoulders weren't on the mat; his anger at the force with which Cochisse broke an early waistlock; the dismissve way he threw him to the mat after making him submit. It was those details that really told the story.

 

There was nothing in it in the early going, and the wrestling was to die for. Satanico was left favouring his arm after Cochisse absolutely pried open a waistlock and from that point on it was a red rag to a bull. Satanico was the aggressor and wanted to hurt Cochisse, which is as good a wrestling story as you need. For some reason, the ref made him wipe his arm with his corner man's towel. Coming out of his corner, Satanico caught Cochisse with a vicious takeover snapmere that sent Cochisse flying out of the ring and from there he never relinquished the fall.

 

In the second caida, Satanico set about separating the shoulder. Perfectly legal, but he made it look cynical. There are laws about title matches in Mexico, written or unwritten, and Satanico with his hands raised to the ref was pushing the boundaries. But this is where the paradigm began to shift.

 

To my way of thinking, selling is the greatest thing in professional wrestling.

 

As soon as Cochisse reversed a wristlock the other way, Satanico was down on one knee. He was struggling to get up; face first on the canvas. Convulsing, spitting shit up. If it sounds over the top it wasn't because there's never been anyone better at selling. Ordinarily, Cochisse would get a submission and that would be that, but these guys went one better. Satanico broke the submission and they ended up on all fours butting heads.

 

And then they unleashed.

 

In lucha, guys don't really unleash until the final fall, but this was something special.

 

However, it was nothing compared to the final fall. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the third fall was the greatest I've seen in lucha.

 

If Satanico was a rudo challenger to begin with, in the third fall he was simply a luchador fighting for a title. The submission attempts and pinning counters were incredible. I can't even begin to describe them. You'll have to see them for yourself. Satanico sold until he was an underdog. Cochisse gave all that a champion could possibly give. On and on they fought, until they were out on their feet. The spot that summed it up was when they were on all fours again, only this time they could barely face each other.

 

Somebody had to win and against the odds it was Satanico. As the publico roared their approval, never before had I seen a rudo win such public favour. For a night, Satanico was numero uno. Y'know I've seen rudos cheat to win, even in title matches, but what Satanico did here was a remarkable bit of drama. If he's not the greatest luchador of the past thirty five years, I don't know who is.

 

As a post script to this, Gran Cochisse won the title back a mere sixteen days later, but this night belonged to Lopez.

[goodhelmet]

Is that crazy?

Not really. I don't know if impressionism is the right analogy, but I think the basic appeal of lucha is seeing a hold done in a way you don't wouldn't expect. Lucha has definite match structures however and this particular match worked in both a narrative sense and as a title match. We are way off though, since Portland 2/3 fall matches to me have the worst rhythm of any two out of three fall matches I've ever seen and I don't think Buddy Rose holds a candle to Satanico on any level.

 

 

I love Satanico but Buddy Rose is so awesome you must have been watching his WrestleMania jobber match on a loop if that is how little you think of him or have a complete disconnect on what makes an American heel great.

[Matt D]

Tito Santana vs THE EXECUTIONER - Wrestlemania I

 

What the hell, right? Nice quick criss-cross stuff early on. THE EXECUTIONER eats a big backdrop then a dropkick through the second rope stooging a bit with the fans on the apron before he comes back in. The fans are buzzing. Tito locks on a headlock and takes him over using the ropes/turnbuckles. Obviously we're losing some facial expressiveness in the selling due to the mask. THE EXECUTIONER gets out with these great little underjabs to the leg though. This pisses Tito out and he drops the technical stuff for a few punches and a slam of the head into the mat. He makes sure to sell while getting up even after the two jabs which is good stuff.

 

THE EXECUTIONER begs off and draws Tito into the corner where he kicks him. That's the transition. He takes over with some big looking offense including a nice headbutt. Once he gets Tito down he immediately goes for the leg, getting kicked off of a figure four once and then going for the Gagne Lock but Tito slips his leg around the head in the midst of it and does an amazingly cool roll up out of it for a two count. That was beautiful. Tito's back up kicking and THE EXECUTIONER is begging off. Legendary "latin temper" shows no mercy though and Tito unloads before whipping him in. There is a lot of gear adjustment from THE EXECUTIONER so he's obviously not comfortable in there.

 

Tito goes for the "bell-ringer" but when he jumps up, THE EXECUTIONER stands right up causing a stunted but pretty cool back body drop. Bodyslam by THE EXECUTIONER but he gets caught going up the ropes and flies across the ring with Tito's help. Tito goes for a splash but eats some knees. He starts going for the leg again with one butt drop in the ropes. he goes for another but Tito kicks him right out of the ring as he goes up again. It was almost a parallel spot to the reversal earlier in the match. Tito slams him back into the ring in a big way, hits the Flying Forearm and then puts on the Figure Four (though THE EXECUTIONER does an admirable job trying and failing to slap on a small package in the midst of it). Lots of flailing and selling and suffering as the ref goes to call for the bell. Tito dickishly keeps it on after the bell but the crowd loves it.

 

Yeah, you know what? You could watch that match and still see how good Buddy was even in the 6 minutes, even working with gear he was OBVIOUSLY uncomfortable with and with some of his best assets cut off completely. There were 3-4 things in there I've never even seen in another match done quite the same way (the bell ringer reversal, the boot out of the ring during the butt drop, the gagne lock reversal into a cradle), though I might see them if I saw a bit more 84-85 Buddy and Tito, sure. They had a very short amount of time and a very hot crowd and still told a pretty good story in there. Everything Buddy did looked good except for the fact he was constantly messing with his gear, but really that never got in the way of when he was on offense or selling. If anything, it helps to explain why Tito was able to come back as much as he did.

 

Seriously, someone could watch that thing on loop and they'd have no reason to think that THE EXECUTIONER was not really quite good and wouldn't want to see more of him.

[goodhelmet]

I can't find a reason someone would think an unmasked Buddy Rose wasn't good.

[soup23]

Please do the lucha set Matt just so I can print out your reviews and bind them as a book like I am considering doing your AWA writeups if the 80's section gets recovered.

[NintendoLogic]

Random question for Dylan: why do you capitalize lucha? Is it because you hold it in Christlike reverence?

[ButchReedMark]

An old Reslo VHS recorded off S4C (Guessing the year, probably about 1994)

 

A ladder match between Fit Finlay and "Doink" The Clown. Lord knows who is Doink on this. But it's fucking rancid. Really, really, shocking.

[Matt D]

Please do the lucha set Matt just so I can print out your reviews and bind them as a book like I am considering doing your AWA writeups if the 80's section gets recovered.

My condition is that if I do the lucha set my reviews have to be read with Yakety Sax on in the background.

 

I read what Will said as "You know, I don't think your money is worth putting up with you for three months," as kindly as possible.

 

Alright, here's my compromise. If someone promises to do what khawk did over at DVDVR putting stuff into context, then I will absolutely do the set. I'd assume that'd be who? Phil?