WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[Loss]

What if you are talking about a non-wrestler though Dylan?

 

Also "matches and performances" are AS SUBJECTIVE as measuring "charisma", which is what I've been trying to stress. Inducting Dynamite Kid for his work or "great matches" is no different from inducting Okerlund and Ventura for their charisma.

 

Both are value calls.

 

I was being rounded on for making charisma part of my Okerlund case, so it makes sense that being a "good worker" shouldn't be part of DK's case or anyone else's. Can't have it both ways.

 

Either "traits" such as charisma and in-ring ability are part of people's cases, or they aren't. You can't say "oh, well THESE traits are important, but THESE ones aren't". That's not a consistent position.

 

Not saying you ever said that Dylan, just clarifying why I brought up DK in the first place.

What if someone is great at juggling and you argue that they should be in the Hall of Fame because they have great juggling skills? If I point out that it's a wrestling hall of fame, and therefore, I think, while the juggling is impressive, it's not really a Hall of Fame case, am I making a value judgment and being inconsistent? Is valuing wrestling in a wrestling hall of fame really that outlandish, especially when your argument about charisma was framed in such an obscure way that it didn't really point to anything specific? I agree with you that Okerlund is charismatic, and I think it's what made him a fun wrestling personality. But his HOF case is that he parlayed that into something that worked in a wrestling setting, not just that he happened to have a fun personality. His charisma helped get over angles. His charisma helped guys who struggled with interviews make their case. His charisma was useful when PPVs were being hard sold. I agree with all of those things, by the way. I do not disagree with you on Okerlund. I just disagree with your reasons for stating his HOF case.

 

Brad Armstrong is said to be a really funny guy with a big personality. It has never really transferred to TV, but that's his reputation. So Brad Armstrong has charisma on a personal level, but he didn't really demonstrate it (at least not in that way) in a way that worked in pro wrestling. So even if he is a funny, articulate guy, no one is going to make the case for Brad Armstrong in the HOF because he was incredibly charismatic.

 

The point: Traits are what make someone great, but there has to be something demonstrable.

 

Put it this way. There's a nuance in the argument that you are missing. Ric Flair is a HOFer I'm sure no one here would argue about. Ric Flair is not in the HOF because of his charisma. Ric Flair is in the HOF in large part because he used his charisma to have a successful wrestling career. The charisma is the means by which he accomplished things, not the end result. The debate should be focused on the end (the career), not the means (the qualities, such as his charisma, that helped him have that career).

 

There have been successful people in wrestling for many reasons. Some for entirely different reasons than others. There are people who are not in the HOF who have no HOF case who have traits that are better than those of people who are in the HOF that pretty much everyone can agree on. I used the Windham/Flair example. The point is if you make the argument by listing all the things Windham was good at doing, and make the argument by listing all the things Flair was good at doing, it starts looking like Windham is a better candidate, which is bullshit. If you list the things Flair did with what he had and compare that to the things Windham did with what he had, Flair takes his rightful place well above Windham.

 

Same with announcers. I challenged the point on the merits, but arguing that Jesse created the heel color guy role and should be in the HOF is a perfectly reasonable, on target argument. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean it's "wrong", necessarily. Reasonable people can disagree. But if you started arguing that Jesse Ventura should go in the HOF because he was "colorful", I would have a bigger problem with that, because it's a buzzword that doesn't really symbolize anything we can talk about in more detail. Much like "charisma".

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Junkyard Dog

 

I'd have to be convinced NOT to vote for JYD. Biggest star and biggest draw in the history of one of the most well regarded territories in wrestling history means a lot to me. Especially when the gates and numbers he were drawing were record setting levels and he seemed to sustain solid momentum through multiple programs. Not sure how he drew in Stampede during his run there, but I know he was a good draw in the WWF for the slots he was used in. I've heard the claim that he was the companies number two drawing babyface after Hogan during the initial boom years and while I don't know if the data backs that up, or how big of a deal that should be seen as, it doesn't seem like a real stretch to me. The big negative is that he sucked in the ring, but I don't think he is nearly as bad as some do - certainly not a Big Daddy type. A case could be argued that the brevity of his peak works against him, but there are people who were not nearly as important that are on the ballot and in the hall.

 

Forgive my ignorance of wrestling in the territorial era, but would it be fair to say, or at least arguable, that at his Mid-South peak, JYD was, up to that time, the biggest black wrestling star ever? I don't know of another black wrestler who was the clear #1 guy in any promotion of Mid-South's caliber or above.

[jdw]

Bearcat Wright was the #1 wrestler in the second largest city in the country in a run that Yohe has often said was right up there as the hottests in LA History. It ended up being short not because Wright wasn't drawing but because the promotion was kinda dumb, and the promotion took a hit when he left. That also brought to an end what was probably LA's best sustained period, from Blassie winning the title in mid-1961 through Destroyer's first run and through Bearcat's.

 

Not exactly saying Bearcat > JYD In Mid-South, since it wasn't sustained. But I'm thinking that if you dropped Early 80s Bill Watts in Los Angeles in the second half of 1963, he probably would have seen the goldmine in Bearcat and gotten big run from him.

 

The business wasn't exactly kind to black wrestlers. :/

 

John

[Ricky Jackson]

What about Bobo? Or was he more of a touring attraction?

[Dylan Waco]

If you are talking biggest black stars I get the feeling Ladd might be first though I could be wrong. What is interesting to me about JYD is that he was the ANCHOR of a promotion and a Southern promotion at that. Then he went on to be one of the stronger compliments to Hogan nationally for Vince in the early expansion days. From 80-87 or so he had pretty immense value. I'd be interested to see if he drew at all for Stampede too, though I'm not sure those records exist.

 

Thinking about it off the cuff I wonder if there isn't a case for JYD as a top three draw of the 80's in the U.S. Certainly seems like there is a good case for top five at minimum.

[Jingus]

When people are talking about "biggest black stars ever", why does Abdullah so often get left out of the mix? Certainly he drew a metric fuckton of crowds in the 70s and beyond. He was certainly a much more consistent and long-term draw than JYD ever was.

[Dylan Waco]

Actually I would be SHOCKED if JYD was a more consistent draw than JYD and I am a HUGE Abby mark. I do agree that he gets slighted though.

[Jingus]

How long was JYD's peak of drawing in Mid-South? No more than three or four years, max. (After that, he vanished into the WWF's black hole of talent where nobody but Hogan really mattered.) Abby easily has that beat with just his Japanese business, let alone counting all the stuff he did elsewhere.

[Dylan Waco]

How long was JYD's peak of drawing in Mid-South? No more than three or four years, max. (After that, he vanished into the WWF's black hole of talent where nobody but Hogan really mattered.) Abby easily has that beat with just his Japanese business, let alone counting all the stuff he did elsewhere.

Point to the hot run where Abby was consistently drawing big houses, big gates, et. night after night. Maybe it exists and I don't know about it. I know he was a big draw in Stampede, but Stampede on it's best day was laughable by comparison to JYD led Watts.

 

When I talk about consistency I'm talking about a guy who day in and day out - week in and week out was drawing tangibly to the point where it can't be seriously disputed or argued away. JYD was doing this and in a big way for no less than four years. If Abby was doing anything comparable I'd love to hear about it.

[JerryvonKramer]

How big was Thunderbolt Patterson at his peak?

[Jingus]

Point to the hot run where Abby was consistently drawing big houses, big gates, et. night after night. Maybe it exists and I don't know about it. I know he was a big draw in Stampede, but Stampede on it's best day was laughable by comparison to JYD led Watts.

 

When I talk about consistency I'm talking about a guy who day in and day out - week in and week out was drawing tangibly to the point where it can't be seriously disputed or argued away. JYD was doing this and in a big way for no less than four years. If Abby was doing anything comparable I'd love to hear about it.

You don't count his runs in Japan? His team with the Sheik, his feuds with Baba/Jumbo/Destroyer/Funks/etc, and so on. They were on top of most of the biggest AJPW shows for the decade of the 70s. Inoki was still impressed enough with his drawing ability as late as 1981 to steal him away from All Japan.

 

He also drew plenty of money in other places. It seems like he main evented a ton of those big baseball-stadium shows in Puerto Rico over the years. I forget how WCCW was doing when he showed up in the mid-80s, but you'd probably assume that they did some decent business there. He's said to have been a huge attraction not just in Stampede, but in pretty much all of Canada from Montreal to Vancouver.

 

Admittedly, part of Abby's drawing ability came from just not sticking around in the same places for very long. He'd usually do a tour or two and then be off to the next territory. But I don't think the travelling-attraction gimmick should be a mark against someone, not when it's a smart strategy and makes money.

[Johnny Sorrow]

When people are talking about "biggest black stars ever", why does Abdullah so often get left out of the mix?

That's a great point. Abby DOES often end up not mentioned when people start up the whole "biggest black stars ever" talk, despite any arguments about drawing or all that. It's as if people forget he's black for some reason.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't hold the traveling gimmick against Abby or anyone else. But I wouldn't call a person who did that more "consistent" as a draw than a guy who was the ace in a promotion with a weekly loop and was setting records around the horn for multiple years. The one exception would probably be Andre, but I don't think anyone is arguing that Abby popped houses the way Andre could and did.

 

Edit: More importantly Abby is already in. JYD has NEVER been on the ballot.

[KB8]

I don't care how bad Warlord was at his worst; the PoP v Rockers match from the 1/15/90 MSG show is just about my favourite match ever and he threw Michaels about 12 feet in the air with a backdrop. He's above criticism in my eyes after that match.

 

Actually, upon checking Cawthon's site it seems there were a bunch of Rockers/PoP matches that month. I reeeealy hope there's a handheld or two floating around out there.

Looking at a handheld list, there doesn't seem to be anything in 1989 or 1990. The two matches involving the teams that seem to be available are the 1/15/90 and 2/19/90 matches at MSG.

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - January 15, 1990 (11,500)

Televised on the MSG Network - featured Gorilla Monsoon & Hillbilly Jim on commentary:

The Powers of Pain defeated Shawn Michaels & Marty Jannetty at 9:59 when the Barbarian pinned Michaels with an elbow drop (SuperTape 2)

 

WWF @ New York City, NY - Madison Square Garden - February 19, 1990 (13,800)

Televised on the MSG Network - featured Gorilla Monsoon, Lord Alfred Hayes, & Hillbilly Jim on commentary:

Jim Duggan, Shawn Michaels, & Marty Jannetty defeated Mr. Fuji & the Powers of Pain at 16:38 when Jannetty pinned Fuji after Duggan used his 2X4 as a weapon

 

Gotta think the Rockers and Powers were working most of that second match given the length.

 

John

 

The second match is on the Rockers set I bought from Corey a few years ago. I don't remember anything about it now, though. I go back and watch the first match semi-regularly, so I'm assuming I didn't think the six-man hit that level whenever I first saw it (I remember watching it, just nothing specific about it).

[khawk20]

Point to the hot run where Abby was consistently drawing big houses, big gates, et. night after night. Maybe it exists and I don't know about it. I know he was a big draw in Stampede, but Stampede on it's best day was laughable by comparison to JYD led Watts.

FWIW Abby had a really nice run in Montreal in 86-87, primarily as a face. Drew really well through most of the territory for several months.

[Mad Dog]

Big Show had kinda already been ruined before he ever hit his prime. Debuting in the goddamn Dungeon Of Doom in the midst of what might've been Hogan's worst-ever face run sure as hell didn't help the fledgling Giant, nor did monster trucks and a complete inability to ever pin Hulk in anything even resembling a clean finish. In fact, looking at his bio, it seems like he wasn't treated like any kind of unstoppable monster in his freshman year. Lotta DQs on that list, plus a few jobs to Sting and the like. His few title defenses tended to be squashing such luminaries as Craig Pittman, and let's not forget that stellar minifeud with Giant Haystacks. And then he stepped into the WCW/nWo Revolving Face-Heel-Face-Heel-Turn Door OF DOOM and never stepped back out again. And despite his remarkable displays of relative agility, he never quite figured out how to put it all together and have consistently good Big Man Matches.

Actually 1997 till about mid 1998 they booked him great as the Giant. He rarely lost clean, they constantly threw him out there in 3 on 1 handicap matches where he'd just destroy jobbers, it always took 3 or 4 guys to beat him down and he gave the Choke Slam to just about everyone on the roster in that time frame. Really, the only thing that stopped their booking was when they started jobbing him out on the way out. But from 1997 to May of 1998 the only match I remember him getting pinned clean in was that stupid tag title match with Sting and Sting had to give him a Scorpion Death Drop off the top rope.

 

But go back and watch, they did a really good job with him in 1997 and early 1998. Probably the most protected he ever was by booking.

[Mad Dog]

How big was Thunderbolt Patterson at his peak?

Eh... he had success. I wouldn't say he was big or anything.

[Mad Dog]

What about Bobo? Or was he more of a touring attraction?

He had a lengthy stay in the WWWF and a fairly lengthy run in Mid-Atlantic. And he was a main stay in Detroit through out the 60s and 70s.

[Dylan Waco]

J.J. Dillon

 

Was positioned as a main eventer in Amarillo and the Maritimes, but wouldn't have been a top five guy in the history of either territory. I always liked him as the Horseman manager but I doubt that he's a top ten manager of all time. Backstage stuff may have been more significant than I know but he'd have to have had a massive presence to be an HoFer based on that.

 

Bob Armstrong

 

Somewhat important regional star, but how important? Seems like most of his success came in Georgia and Bama but I don't think he was ever a consistent top tier guy in Georgia back when that really would have meant something. I am a fan, but it seems like a reach.

 

Johnny Weaver

 

Anther one of those guys that is still a huge name around the area I am from. Probably had his biggest success as a tag star though in the Mid-Atlantic area that effectively made you a main event star in his heyday. Was positioned to draw for a good long haul and seems to have been successful though I'm not sure there was ever a period where he was the definitive star. I'm on he fence about Weaver actually as a candidate as his bio is impressive but doesn't seem quite impressive enough, but years of talking to wrestling fans around here makes him seem like a shoe in.

 

Billy Red Lyons

 

Another guy that was primarily a major tag team star. He had success in a variety of promotions as a tag worker, but if you look at where and with who he almost always feels like the "other" guy in the tag team.

 

Yukon Eric

 

Most famous because Kowalski took off his ear. I actually have no clue what his major strengths would be.

 

Miguel Perez

 

He and Rocca were of course massively successful draws at MSG. I don't know how well they did around that loop. I would be interested to find out more details about him.

 

Ron Fuller

 

Musgrave has talked about how he thinks the Cormier's might have a case as a family and I've said the same thing about the Von Erichs. I sort of feel the same way about the Welch/Fullers. I know a the peak of Fuller's territory it did very good business but from memory it collapsed hard. Don't see him as a strong candidate as a wrestler. The whole family is a different story.

 

Ed Francis

 

Not sure how successful he was as a wrestler. I do know that he was something of a successful promoter for a while in Hawaii. That is an unexplored region and probably deserves a closer look as a rule. While looking through Patera results it was clear he had some massive cards there and it developed a rep with a lot of folks as a good place to work. No clue what kind of houses they were doing, but I would guess he had a near entertainment monopoly on the island and in order to pay the costs of flying in talent he couldn't have been just scraping by. Deserves more consideration, though I'm not sure I can see a place for him on the ballot when Jarrett, Owen, et. can't get in.

 

Bobby Managoff

 

Don't know enough.

 

Count Billy Varga

 

I've heard he was a good hand and one of the early great light heavyweights. No clue if he was a draw or had any value beyond that.

 

Ron Miller

 

Fairly big star in Australia. Was he involved in promotion down there? Seems like a major leap otherwise.

 

Don Eagle

 

Don't know nearly enough.

[Dylan Waco]

Booker T

 

Already covered. Why did Dave include him twice?

 

Dr. Jerry Graham

 

Definitely has a group of people out there who would support him. Was a huge star New York both teaming with Eddie and on his own where he drew big houses v. Buddy Rogers. Was also one of the participants in the match that touched off the infamous riot in MSG. Also was a great opponent for Bruno. I've heard that he was a draw in Georgia and Canada as well but don't know the details. I'm pretty close to saying he should be in.

 

Kane

 

Laughable candidate. Loss made a point about Show I don't disagree with, but with Show I like the idea of him on the ballot because it is a good reference point for guys like Edge, Batista, et. For Kane I don't know what the plus would be. He's been around for a long time and been near the top for most of that period. Was never the top guy, even when he managed to hold the World title. Not sure he was ever even a top five guy in the WWE for any length of time. There are periods where he wouldn't crack a top ten.

 

Kyoko Inoue

 

I think she probably merits a look on the ballot. I've soured on Joshi over the years, but she was always a favorite of Joshi fans. In some ways I think she has aged better than others. She was clearly one of the better workers of that generation and a big enough star in her own right. Given how long it took Aja to get in I can't imagine Kyoko ever getting in though. And I doubt I'd ever vote for her.

 

Christian

 

Really doesn't have a serious argument at all. Very consistent in ring performer with a year and a half peak that was exceptionally high. I guess you can give him some credit for the EC v. Dudz v. Hardyz feud but that was always a secondary to the top stuff from that period. Really bombed hard v. Orton this year when finally given a main event run. I'd say Owen Hart would be a better candidate and Owen is the weakest guy currently on the ballot.

 

Thunderbolt Patterson

 

At his peak was really hot and one of the more unique promo guys in wrestling. Definitely moved a lot of tickets over the years even in he sucked in the ring. The problem is his peak run was short and he always sabotaged himself.

 

John Bradshaw Layfield

 

Brief run as a main eventer in which he was not a real draw. Had some very good matches and was an extremely enjoyable character, but there a multitude of people who would be better candidates.

 

Tommy Dreamer

 

Is this a joke?

 

Don Curtis

 

Another huge tag team star, though Curtis and Lewin were a super notable tag team that has long been highly touted. I'd be interested to see how much he did as a singles star. Certainly has the "name" recognition that makes you consider him someone of value, but I'm largely ignorant of the particulars.

 

Medico Asesino

 

I'm lucha novice, but this makes an interesting case http://luchawiki.org/index.php?title=M%C3%A9dico_Asesino

 

Ricky Romero

 

Romero was covered already too.

 

Blackie Guzman

 

Don't know enough.

[NintendoLogic]

I think Big Show had the misfortune of coming along in an era where the big companies were giving away so much on free TV every week, making it difficult to build up an Andre-like mystique. I guess Goldberg had that kind of mystique for a while, but it's an open question whether that was sustainable over the long run.

[Jingus]

Tommy Dreamer

 

Is this a joke?

I wouldn't vote for Dreamer, but I can see why some people might want him on the ballot. If you loved the overbaked ECW style of brawling (and many still do), he was certainly one of the top guys in that niche. For being a mediocre talker and a one-dimensional wrestler without anything even resembling a gimmick (besides "local whipping boy"), he never had any problem connecting with the fans. He generally stayed over wherever he went, and was managing to have surprisingly watchable matches in WWECW when his fragile body was long past its prime. Plus he's done plenty of backstage work in every company that ever employed him, booking and writing and training and merchandise and various other stuff. Admittedly he wasn't a good booker from most reports, but just wearing all those extra hats does strengthen his case a little bit. But the simple lack of ever drawing any crowd bigger than a couple thousand people is probably enough to dismiss him.

[rzombie1988]

I don't think he'd get in, but Robert Fuller may be the better pick over Ron Fuller. They both did well in Georgia, Southeastern and Memphis(Robert also in SMW and an okay run as a manager in WCW). Robert had more longetivity but Ron took care of more of the behind the scenes stuff and was a better manager(one of the most underrated managers ever).

 

It's too bad that both of them were heads of Southeastern or else they may have had a shot at the WWF or NWA(86-on). I think Vince would have loved to have had either one of those guys.

 

Off topic here, but are there any Von Erich vs Stud Stable match-ups? That might have been a fun family feud.

[Al]

I think Big Show had the misfortune of coming along in an era where the big companies were giving away so much on free TV every week, making it difficult to build up an Andre-like mystique. I guess Goldberg had that kind of mystique for a while, but it's an open question whether that was sustainable over the long run.

Big Show definitely would've been better off in the territorial days, where he could've traveled from place to place and not become stale. It's very difficult for a wrestler like him in this era.

[rzombie1988]

I think Big Show had the misfortune of coming along in an era where the big companies were giving away so much on free TV every week, making it difficult to build up an Andre-like mystique. I guess Goldberg had that kind of mystique for a while, but it's an open question whether that was sustainable over the long run.

Big Show definitely would've been better off in the territorial days, where he could've traveled from place to place and not become stale. It's very difficult for a wrestler like him in this era.

 

The other thing is that his size is really not special anymore. Not like you couldn't find tons of guys in the NBA that big and he's not even the tallest guy in the company.