WON HoF Candidate Poll Thread

[Al]

Specifically, check out the table on the left:

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/foot...+Top+Stories%29

 

Besides the NFL strike, the competition from the USFL blew up the salary structure as players saw how much more valuable they would be on an open market. The median NFL salary increased fivefold from 1980-90. The top stars almost always made more in football than wrestling, at least as long as data existed. But in the '80s the least of the NFL players started making more than top wrestlers. That really killed wrestling's athlete pool, IMO.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

I think with someone like a Lex Luger, it's an attempt to say, "See, this guy is a real athlete, not just some no-talent steroid jerk we found in a gym". The anti-WWF share of the wrestling fanbase resented that wrestling was going in that direction. Yes, Luger, Nikita and the Road Warriors being very over, but wrestling is full of double standards. Anyway, up until nearly the end of WCW, market research showed that the majority of their fanbase were bigger overall sports fans than the WWF fanbase. To me, the bigger question than "Why mention it?" is "Why avoid mentioning it?"

I'm about as big an overall sports fan as there is. When I hear Ross constantly talking about a guy's football career, I keep wondering why he's not playing football if he was so good at it. I'm probably over thinking it, but I don't think always talking about something a wrestler failed at in a previous life is any way to get a guy over. Mentioning it when a guy is first introduced? That's fine. But then move on and tell me why this guy is an awesome wrestler instead of reliving some gridiron glory days like Al Bundy.

 

Again, I know I'm over thinking this.....but to me, if your market research shows that your fanbsse is knowledgeable about real sports, that's all the more reason to not constantly talk about a wrestler's failed attempt at succeeding at a real sport.

[NintendoLogic]

But even an NFL washout is still a high-level athlete.

[EricR]

I hated whenever Ross would talk about how Rico was a cop and had a child during his matches. I never understood the point of it. How did it help his character, or any storyline. Was I supposed to think "This guy who is prancing around used to be a police officer. Neat." Was he implying that he used to be "tough" but now he's a "fruit"...so did he betray his family and profession by being a gay-ish pro wrestler? Was it Ross getting all insecure about people being judgmental while watching wrestling, so this was him going "don't worry y'all, this is just a show. This man isn't really a homo." I just do not understand what the point of it was. It would be like putting over Kane's political beliefs.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

But even an NFL washout is still a high-level athlete.

Sure. But it sounds second rate to me. I don't want to get behind the guy who couldn't cut it in football. I want to get behind the guy who makes me believe he could kick any football player's ass.

[PeteF3]

I hated whenever Ross would talk about how Rico was a cop and had a child during his matches. I never understood the point of it. How did it help his character, or any storyline. Was I supposed to think "This guy who is prancing around used to be a police officer. Neat." Was he implying that he used to be "tough" but now he's a "fruit"...so did he betray his family and profession by being a gay-ish pro wrestler? Was it Ross getting all insecure about people being judgmental while watching wrestling, so this was him going "don't worry y'all, this is just a show. This man isn't really a homo." I just do not understand what the point of it was. It would be like putting over Kane's political beliefs.

I dunno--I think Ross thought, whether he executed well or not, that he was getting Rico over as a tough guy (minus the child part). Ross used to heavily play up Adrian Street's credentials as well--"Underneath that bowed blond hair is a pair of cauliflower ears!" Rico was also well into the era of getting screamed at through the headset, so I'd also be wary of laying too much of it at Ross' feet at all.

[PeteF3]

Sure. But it sounds second rate to me. I don't want to get behind the guy who couldn't cut it in football. I want to get behind the guy who makes me believe he could kick any football player's ass.

Brock Lesnar could charitably be described as a football washout and I don't think there are many who have trouble accepting that he could still kick most football player's asses anyway. Football, fighting, and wrestling all require different skill sets and I think most fans who know at least a little about all 3 will understand that. I think this is getting close to degrading Michael Jordan's accomplishments as a basketball player because he washed out in baseball.

[Cross Face Chicken Wing]

Sure. But it sounds second rate to me. I don't want to get behind the guy who couldn't cut it in football. I want to get behind the guy who makes me believe he could kick any football player's ass.

Brock Lesnar could charitably be described as a football washout and I don't think there are many who have trouble accepting that he could still kick most football player's asses anyway. Football, fighting, and wrestling all require different skill sets and I think most fans who know at least a little about all 3 will understand that. I think this is getting close to degrading Michael Jordan's accomplishments as a basketball player because he washed out in baseball.

 

C'mon dude. Seriously?

[PeteF3]

Well, I didn't post for the hell of it.

[Dylan Waco]

Matisyk was on the show with Bryan and Dave today talking his book and the HoF today. He sort of buried Torres as "okay" and clearly beneath Snyder. Someone needs to send him Yohe's record book as Torres was a biggest star in the beloved St. Louis than Larry is remembering.

[jdw]

It's Larry. Why waste time on him.

 

John

[Bix]

Larry also said that he voted for Jesse Ventura on his HOF ballot because Jesse was elected governor. Seriously, he said that was the only reason; that it wasn't for his work as an announcer.

[Victator]

I keep wondering why he's not playing football if he was so good at it.

Because pro wrestling is king of sports.

[Dylan Waco]

It's Larry. Why waste time on him.

 

John

I was basically joking, though I couldn't help but find it amusing.

 

I don't even think Snyder is a bad candidate. But Snyder has popped up a lot in my own projects and looking at Torres record book I think Torres is clearly the better candidate.

[cm funk]

I've never thought bringing up someone having a cup of coffee in the NFL diminished him. Just making it that far is a major athletic accomplishment. Is it bad when college football credentials are brought up for guys who never made it in pro-ball? Did it diminish The Rock to reference him winning an NCAA championship with Miami? To hype up Ron Simmons as an All-American, even though he was a bust as a pro?

 

You're free to perceive it that way, but I don't think the audience at large looks at it like that

[Guest Nell Santucci]

I've never thought bringing up someone having a cup of coffee in the NFL diminished him. Just making it that far is a major athletic accomplishment. Is it bad when college football credentials are brought up for guys who never made it in pro-ball? Did it diminish The Rock to reference him winning an NCAA championship with Miami? To hype up Ron Simmons as an All-American, even though he was a bust as a pro?

 

You're free to perceive it that way, but I don't think the audience at large looks at it like that

I always saw it as pro-wrestling's non sequitur. Think about it in the following way: When Goldberg fans would discuss him, how many have ever justified his being a badass by bringing up his run in the Atlanta Falcons? Honestly, I always took that as a statement being equivalent to "Pro-wrestling's number one bad ass couldn't hack it in the NFL." Not a whole lot of good can come out of such statements, but more critical fans start seeing some vulnerability. Of course, that vulnerability would be overblown since in no way would such facts affect their drawing power.

 

It's all about delivery and execution. Saying Pillman was an undersized guy who basically played so courageously that he got a slot on the Bengals is a plus. Instead of saying Goldberg played for the Atlanta Falcons, tying up his playing with kayfabe stories of legendary toughness is better. "He hit so hard that the Falcons were forced to make him warm benches." Dolph Ziggler's amateur career is damn impressive. I often bring up in casual conversation that he set a record for the number of pinfalls in college. People are impressed by that. Each case is different.

[Guest Nell Santucci]

Larry also said that he voted for Jesse Ventura on his HOF ballot because Jesse was elected governor. Seriously, he said that was the only reason; that it wasn't for his work as an announcer.

Though I wholly disagree on using that as his basis, it must be understood that Larry came from a territory that prided itself on respectable PR with the media, i.e. "St. Louis wrestling was just part of the sports culture there." Jesse becoming governor to him means pro-wrestling's respectability has increased in the eyes of the public. Ironically enough, Ventura became governor right when pro-wrestling's likeability was shooting up but its respectability was still in the gutter with the Attitude Era, so Larry's obviously misreading the significance of Ventura's victory.

 

Larry was a pleasant guest. I appreciated he and Dave going over Dick the Bruiser v. Flair in St. Louis. His book, Drawing Heat the Hard Way, was very focused and showed that there can be an alternative to the WWE's presentation. I look forward to reading his book in January.

 

Cross Face Chicken Wing, I don't understand your reply to Pete. It's true that all sports require their own unique abilities to excel. It's not something that can be "well ordered" in the sense of pro-wrestling < MMA < football. People are good at different things. I think you know this, so I want to know what exactly you object to Pete's argument.

[Victator]

It is like Jim Neidhart said, football is for sissies.

[evilclown]

I don't understand why it is supposed to matter that guys didn't get over in St. Louis or Japan. I get that it's a metric used for quality, but why should that be a main consideration when a guy DID get over in other places?

[kjh]

Listening to Larry, you can't help but feel that the knocks on Carlos Colon are partly due to not liking the man for what happened in the aftermath of Bruiser Brody's murder. The guy stiffed Brody on some payments, show me a promoter who didn't rip off his talent in some way.

[Dylan Waco]

I thought it was interesting that Larry went out of his way not to mention that. I'm sure that's a factor in him being so opposed to Colon's candidacy, but I actually thought he was reasonably balanced when discussing it. His dismissal of Torres, The Assassins and the RnR's was actually much harsher.

[KrisZ]

Larry has always dismissed tag teams because St. Louis didn't push the concept.

[khawk20]

Show me a promoter who didn't rip off his talent in some way.

Why Sam Muchnick, of course.

[Dylan Waco]

Bruce Mitchell was on the podcast with Bryan and Dave talking HoF. Interesting listen. He took Larry to task in the nicest possible way for his anti-tag team stuff and was about as hard on Sting as I've heard anyone be. Dave's shitting on Bryan for trying to play the "what if" card was great. I also thought the discussion about modern candidates was interesting with Bruce arguing (correctly in my view) that if there are no candidates coming down the pike who meet the established criteria then no one new should get in and Dave seeming to take the older Todd Martin "affirmative action" argument whereby you have to judge by the era and it would look silly to have only one or two guys in from the modern landscape.

 

Other stuff of note

 

Dave argued the old "Edge carried a promotion" thing again unchallenged. That's something that NEEDS to be challenged. If you want to make an argument for Edge make it based on what he did fine. But he never "carried a promotion" anymore than the RnR's carried a promotion because they headlined all of the Crockett B Shows for a couple of years.

 

Speaking of the RnR's Bruce argued against them and in doing so argued that a negative was that SMW ultimately crashed with them on top....except it didn't. The RnR's split when Morton and Smothers gf's couldn't get along and Ricky left the promotion on the night of the biggest show in the promotions history. During the months of the hardest decline Morton was actually working for an opposition group in the area that cut commercials during SMW tv. I wouldn't argue that the loss of the RnR's is what put SMW out of business, but it's unquestionably that their absence left a huge void and that the steep part of the companies decline hit when Morton left the promotion.

 

Also worth noting that Bruce's argument for Koloff was very similar to my argument for Patera. I wouldn't say that Patera was as good or better as a candidate (though I don't think that's impossible either) but the case he laid out was built around the same premise.

[KrisZ]

Something that never gets talked about in the demise of SMW is how much of a factor the USWA feud was because the RnR's were such hardcore heels there along with Mark Curtis did that make the fans change their attitudes towards them. A lot of the SMW fans weren't smart and still had that old school psychology in that they believed their faces were clean but seeing them in another promotion act like assholes.

 

USWA flourished with the SMW feud but SMW went the other way after it started and watching the TV you could understand in that USWA TV was pushing the feud heavily while on SMW you had PG-13 there at times but the main focus was still Cornette vs. Armstrongs in it's 4th straight year.