Comments that don't warrant a thread - Part 3

[Johnny Sorrow]

I gotta be honest. I wasn't offended by the Bell's Palsy part of "Oklahoma", I was just offended by how stupid it all was.

[MJH]

Ed was doing the "Oklahoma" gimmick in the WWF, though. Doc damn near broke his neck on one skit (I'm thinking on Heat or something - it's on youTube somewhere), but it wasn't a WCW deal.

[Loss]

I remember Russo trying to justify it as something they ran by Jim Ross in the WWF, where he even laughed at the idea and supported it. We all know that's one of those political things where they get kicks out of humiliating people and running it by them is just a way to rub it in even more. They have to say they have no problem with it, even if they do.

 

There is also a difference in doing it in Jim Ross's home promotion, and doing it for the competition.

[sek69]

What bothered me most was not only were they mocking a guy's handicap, but they were putting one of JR's real life friends in the angle too (Dr. Death). To this day JR still gets asked on Twitter if it bothered him that he was part of that angle.

[Victator]

Ed was doing the "Oklahoma" gimmick in the WWF, though. Doc damn near broke his neck on one skit (I'm thinking on Heat or something - it's on youTube somewhere), but it wasn't a WCW deal.

Only one time on Heat.

 

 

What bothered me most was not only were they mocking a guy's handicap, but they were putting one of JR's real life friends in the angle too (Dr. Death). To this day JR still gets asked on Twitter if it bothered him that he was part of that angle.

And a guy like Doc should not have to do shit like that to get work. He still had gas in the tank at that point and he could have produced a quality feud with Goldberg.

 

Doc said he called JR and asked him if it was okay. JR told him to do what he needed to do.

[flyonthewall2983]

The Bell's palsy part of it bothered me the most, as someone who's spent part of my life around people with handicaps it can get the blood boiling. It makes me wonder if Bischoff would have let it go on the air. My guess is probably, and not because of the possibility of any bad blood between Eric and Jim, but more or less with how WCW was run they wouldn't have had the time to deliberate the pros and cons of airing something like it. The kind of "fuck it, let's do it live" attitude served them well sometimes, but I can imagine that was how Nash and the NWO could have pulled off the Arn spoof that caused so much grief.

[Johnny Guitar]

The Bell's palsy part of it bothered me the most, as someone who's spent part of my life around people with handicaps it can get the blood boiling. It makes me wonder if Bischoff would have let it go on the air. My guess is probably, and not because of the possibility of any bad blood between Eric and Jim, but more or less with how WCW was run they wouldn't have had the time to deliberate the pros and cons of airing something like it. The kind of "fuck it, let's do it live" attitude served them well sometimes, but I can imagine that was how Nash and the NWO could have pulled off the Arn spoof that caused so much grief.

It's better to ask forgivness, than to ask permission. As the old saying goes.

 

I know the Arn spoof caused alot of grief, but had The Horsemen won Wargames and got revenge, instead of the pointless heel turn we got instead. I think people would have been willing to overlook it.

[Dylan Waco]

The problem with the Arn spoof is that everyone knew there was no chance the Horseman were going to get revenge on the NWO. It would be like if the alternate 1985 from Back To The Future happened and then the movie ends with Marty homeless and Biff fucking two strippers in a hot tub while Marty's mom is passed out on 'ludes upstairs.

[kjh]

I don't think anyone would have taken Doc seriously as an opponent for Goldberg after the Brawl For All knockout.

[cm funk]

Shockingly, Vince Russo laid out an invasion angle that was light years better than the crap Cornette came up with. It wasn't perfect, but he did a much better job of capturing the tone and using the right people, and he laid out a basic enough framework that it could be expanded upon and made successful.

Just watched that the other day, and I was pleasantly surprised. Definitely wasn't perfect, and the idea that Vince would trust Bischoff to rid him of the nWo and not turn to his heavy hitters Austin, Rock, HHH, Angle etc. flies in the face of "reality" and "the character" which were the two big points Russo was harping on, but overall, with tweaking, it would have been a hundred times better than what we got. Of course any of us could book the angle better than it was, but Russo had some good ideas, especially leaving WCW alone on the last Nitro, and starting the invasion with the mirror image of Hall coming through the crowd.

 

The whole thing was Russo to a T though, some good ideas, good ideas of how to work with talent, how to write episodic TV, but lacking simple understanding in wrestling basics. He drove that home when asked how he handles the WCW belts, and responds "THE BELTS DON'T MATTER!"

 

And he kept talking about "reality" and "shooting" ad nauseum. He makes a big production of talking about how wrestling fans all know what's going to happen if you book with "traditional" wrestling "cliches"....not understanding that his style of booking is a cliche in itself, and it doesn't work.

 

Also, I can understand Russo not having more than a cursory grasp of the time period and the talent available since he claims he didn't watch any of it when it happened, but the KC host was woefully underprepared and misinformed on basic things. He kept saying 2000 when the Invasion happened in 2001. He didn't know when the purchase happened. He didn't know it was right before WM and WWE had all their booking through Mania in place already. He skips right to freakin SummerSlam for the first big PPV angle, when he's got it starting the week after the last Nitro. Simple things that really hurt both of their credibility.

 

It was an enjoyable, but flawed, watch though, better than I expected.

[Loss]

I think the most interesting takeaway was that I finished the shoot understanding how Vince Russo has managed to stay employed in wrestling. He talks a great game. He accurately describes many of the things that are wrong with wrestling (at times not realizing he's describing himself). He seems like a nice enough guy. Not that he's any less of a horrible influence on wrestling, but you at least understand how people fall for his bullshit.

 

I think one problem is that Russo is a pretty decent big picture guy, but is horrible with details. Yet he has always focused more on details than big picture. I have a new understanding of him, even if my opinion of him hasn't really changed.

[Victator]

I don't think anyone would have taken Doc seriously as an opponent for Goldberg after the Brawl For All knockout.

Its wrestling, Doc press slams and backdrop drivers guys and that is that.

[Dylan Waco]

I don't think anyone would have taken Doc seriously as an opponent for Goldberg after the Brawl For All knockout.

In theory this is true, but I'm not sure I believe it. It's not that hard to build someone again if you actually want to.

[cm funk]

I think the most interesting takeaway was that I finished the shoot understanding how Vince Russo has managed to stay employed in wrestling. He talks a great game. He accurately describes many of the things that are wrong with wrestling (at times not realizing he's describing himself). He seems like a nice enough guy. Not that he's any less of a horrible influence on wrestling, but you at least understand how people fall for his bullshit.

 

I think one problem is that Russo is a pretty decent big picture guy, but is horrible with details. Yet he has always focused more on details than big picture. I have a new understanding of him, even if my opinion of him hasn't really changed.

I agree with all of this. It was an interesting look at how his mind works, but ultimately just reinforces the long held belief that he needs to be micro-managed and edited.

[Victator]

I don't think anyone would have taken Doc seriously as an opponent for Goldberg after the Brawl For All knockout.

In theory this is true, but I'm not sure I believe it. It's not that hard to build someone again if you actually want to.

 

Hell I thought he was being built up fine in early 99. When he was doing handicap matches briefly. Though it still seemed like a way to stick it to Jim Ross, than get Doc over. Which again is crap, that a guy like Doc has to be treated as a charity case.

[flyonthewall2983]

I think we need to stress that "Doc" is Steve Williams at this point.

[blueminister]

The whole thing was Russo to a T though, some good ideas, good ideas of how to work with talent, how to write episodic TV, but lacking simple understanding in wrestling basics.

This is wrong. What Russo lacks is understanding of the basic fundamentals of narrative. It's not because he isn't especially a wrestling fan, he just has no grasp of how stories on the whole are supposed to function or why. He is a man who has never thought about, say, a movie or a book in a structural sense because he thinks the spectacle is the draw and that spectacle is something that occurs naturally when you shake up the bag of marbles often enough -- and therefore something he is capable of creating (as opposed to the reality that he was a mere lucky witness when Rock, Austin, and Foley got their moment to shine.)

[blueminister]

Russo to a T though, some good ideas, good ideas of how to work with talent, how to write episodic TV

seriously why does anyone still think this, how many years of terrible product does he have to be responsible for before the "Russo has redeeming qualities" meme dies

 

he is the complete opposite of "has some good ideas of how to write episodic tv"

[Loss]

He mentioned how WWF TV was so boring when he was a kid, and that no one cared about the endless squash matches. But the angle was the big deal and where his interest piqued. This explained so much about him. He obviously thought two hours with a steady stream of big angles was the way to go. I think it's also telling that his hatred of in-ring wrestling comes from growing up on WWF squashes and being bored to tears. He hates wrestling matches because he hasn't them done well too many times.

[jdw]

The whole thing was Russo to a T though, some good ideas, good ideas of how to work with talent, how to write episodic TV, but lacking simple understanding in wrestling basics.

This is wrong. What Russo lacks is understanding of the basic fundamentals of narrative. It's not because he isn't especially a wrestling fan, he just has no grasp of how stories on the whole are supposed to function or why. He is a man who has never thought about, say, a movie or a book in a structural sense because he thinks the spectacle is the draw and that spectacle is something that occurs naturally when you shake up the bag of marbles often enough -- and therefore something he is capable of creating (as opposed to the reality that he was a mere lucky witness when Rock, Austin, and Foley got their moment to shine.)

 

This.

 

Russo only thinks of the high spots in storylines, not how to structure and layout the stories in full.

 

Could Russo come up with the scene in Godfather where Sonny is shot at the tool booth? Possibly, especially if he saw it in another movie and ripped it off.

 

Could he come up with the totality of Godfather, especially the primary story arc:

 

* "That's my family, Kay. It's not me."

 

* "It was Michael who killed Sollozzo." [The Don, markedly upset and angry, gestures that they leave him alone.]

 

* "But I never... I never wanted this for you."

 

* "Is it true? Is it?" "No."

 

And finally:

 

[Kay leaves the room to fix Michael a drink. At the same time, Rocco, Clemenza, and Neri enter the office. Clemenza shakes Michael's hand. Kay turns her head to watch them. They embrace Michael, then kiss his hand.]

 

CLEMENZA (kissing Michael's hand)

 

Don Corleone...

 

[Rocco kisses Michael's hand as Neri shuts the door blocking Kay's view]

http://www.thegodfathertrilogy.com/gf1/tra...transcript.html

 

Could Russo write a storyline like that with the arc where not only is Michael becomes not only what he claimed he didn't want to be at the beginning, but also what his father didn't want him to become (ironically his own true heir)?

 

Of course not.

 

Or he'd get it done with in the first act, and have the rest of the movie devoted to cool killings.

 

Russo's a shitty writer, and always has been. He comes across to some as a good bullshitter because he's spreads his bullshit in a fashion that people almost makes sense... in a way, it's the pro wrestling equiv of Stephen Colbert's "Truthiness". But really... it's bullshit. As a writer, he spun out bullshit. McMahon did a good job of shifting through the bullshit and using some of it. And also had the luck that Austin, Rock and Foley came along.

[Victator]

Russo to a T though, some good ideas, good ideas of how to work with talent, how to write episodic TV

seriously why does anyone still think this, how many years of terrible product does he have to be responsible for before the "Russo has redeeming qualities" meme dies

 

he is the complete opposite of "has some good ideas of how to write episodic tv"

 

Oh I was just surprised the late 99 stuff was not as bad as 2000. He really has no idea about basic story structure or basic character development. He seemed clueless on how to format a wrestling show. He had something like three long promo segments before the first match.

 

He still has no idea why belts are important to the show, or why they should be respected in universe.

[kjh]

I'm sure in his second autobiography he brags about being a writer that doesn't read books.

[blueminister]

Yeah. The only time Russo was involved in product that wasn't demonstrably terrible was when he was filtered by a committee headed by the most successful promoter in the history of wrestling and had his heavily-edited material performed by a group of the most talented mic workers in the history of wrestling. The product reached its artistic peak in 1997 before he achieved the height of his influence and improved markedly after he left.

 

Conceivably he could be not terrible yet again were these unique historical circumstances to reoccur, but the many chances he has been given to mold a wrestling promotion to his heart's desire suggest a man who is simply not good at his job and has only the foggiest conception of what his job actually entails.

[Victator]

His real downfall is when he decided he was too great a genius to be a part of a team. That his vision had to be unfiltered.

 

If he was just a guy giving suggestions, he might be worth keeping around.

 

He is a guy who cannot even properly explain his storylines. Like on the old WOL show, someone asked him about Juvi giving Tequila as a gift and if he thought that was racist. He stumbles over himself saying that Juvi was trying to impress the Powers That Be. Which did not answer the question or make sense.

 

I almost think he meant that Juvi was playing upon the Powers on prejudices towards Mexicans. But I don't think he is that smart.

[blueminister]

If Russo wrote and directed Godfather II, instead of getting an abortion Kay would have miscarried as an indirect result of something Michael did, the plot would abandon gangster high drama in favor of dwelling on the miscarriage as a plot point in an awkward and unseemly way for the first forty-five minutes with the presumable goal of making Michael sympathetic, and then after that Kay would reveal out of the blue that she was never actually pregnant and that she faked the pregnancy and miscarriage to get revenge on Michael for reasons that are never clarified. After that point the miscarriage plot would never be mentioned again and the movie would begrudgingly make its way back to gangster action through a desert of boner and weed jokes only the climactic action scenes would be filmed in shaky cam close-ups and low contrast lighting that would make it impossible to establish any idea of spatial placement or put together any mental sequence of who's shooting who. Larry "Bud" Melman would emerge as King of the Gangsters in a shock cameo at the end as a publicity stunt even though he wasn't that popular a public figure and anyone who stuck around long enough to see him had already paid to see the movie.