WWF announcing debate mega-thread

[Guest Paul Kersey]

I do like Styles, but I thought a lot of the match calls on old ECW tapes/tv were done after the fact in Heyman's mom's basement like the -standing-in-front-of-the-tarp stuff was/

[Strummer]

In fact, there's a guy who doesn't get enough props anymore. By himself, Joey was a master at getting over gimmicks and personality in an incredibly efficient way. He could talk for about ten seconds and make the audience completely understand the goals and mindset of any worker on the roster. He was incredibly efficient, using just a few well-chosen phrases to imbue large amounts of exposition and information (and also noteworthy is that he's one of the few announcers who is sometimes willing to just shut up for a minute and let silence reign during the action). Yeah, a lot of his psychology was pulled out of thin air or his ass or anything other than what's happening in the ring, but he had to cover up for a lot of illogical bullshit and blown spots in ECW. He's one of the better improvisers I've ever seen at covering up or explaining something on the spot.

Agreed. In a recent shoot interview, Shane Douglas gives him tons of credit for working in really tough conditions, that don't compare at all with what WCW and WWF announcers were working with at the same time, and pulling it off despite all the bullshit. Joey was a big part of getting the ECW product over. I think he got exposed as soon as the first PPV, and his character became a bit annoying after 1998. He was at his best on his own before that.

 

I was always under the impression that every line he had was fed to him by Paul Heyman.

 

When Joey signed with WWE back in 05 didn't Heyman tell Vince McMahon that he would have to carefully produce all of his commentary? (like Heyman did in ECW) I remember something like that being reported at the time

[khawk20]

Have we talked about Rod Trongard yet?

 

Tell us what you really think, Kevin.

 

John

 

Actually Trongard was ok with his early stuff, doing solo work for the St. Paul arena matches they used to show on the weekly shows. The further along he went, the worse he seemed to get, IMO.

My understanding is that he was a local radio personality that was brought into wrestling with very little knowledge of it. Makes sense, as noted the voice fit. the knowledge and the call often didn't.

His pairing with Lord James Blears was just. fucking. awful. Blears brought him down badly.

 

I did with he was still around when Lee Marshall came on board, though. Jeez...

[Jingus]

When Joey signed with WWE back in 05 didn't Heyman tell Vince McMahon that he would have to carefully produce all of his commentary? (like Heyman did in ECW) I remember something like that being reported at the time

Maybe, but I still maintain that Styles did fine when he was by himself. I doubt he was being carefully produced when he did his little stints for indy companies like XPW and MLW, yet he still sounded like the same old Joey.

 

And like I mentioned before, there's moments such as this one. Watch how easily Joey shifts from his intended talking point about Balls to a completely unplanned yet completely relevant talking point about Sandman, it's at around 8:40:

 

 

That reminds me, is there a way to post Youtube videos on this board? And the whole commentary is worth listening to. With four announcers, there's no way that Paul or Vince or anyone is orchestrating the entire thing, yet Joey still sounds pretty much the same as he always has.

 

Plus, he knocked out JBL with one punch that one time. That's like some "George McFly knocks out Biff Tannen" shit right there. For all of us long-abused announcers in wrestling, that pretty much makes Styles into our permanent idol. I know it doesn't make the tiniest difference on anything regarding the product or his performance, but still, just tell me you can say the words "Joey Styles knocked Bradshaw the fuck out" and not have a grin on your face by the end of the sentence.

[Johnny Sorrow]

but still, just tell me you can say the words "Joey Styles knocked Bradshaw the fuck out" and not have a grin on your face by the end of the sentence.

Wasn't that whole thing kinda debunked? Or at least it didn't go down quite like that?

[ohtani's jacket]

Y'know, watching the promos Jesse cut as an active wrestler it's striking how much he improved through commentating and doing The Body Shop. That's natural I guess, but you'd think Jesse the worker would've been a better promo than he was.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I think Jesse got good on commentary by doing all those MSG, Boston Gardens, etc, shows with Gorilla that were at least three hours long and had a lot of shitty stuff that a guy could feel comfortable cutting his teeth on.

 

The SNME Jesse with Vince was a LOT more "cartoony" than the Jesse who called monthly MSG shows with Gorilla.

 

And Jesse should go down as an all time great for his losing it for real during the Uncle Elmer Wedding and then being the funniest guy ever.

[El-P]

but still, just tell me you can say the words "Joey Styles knocked Bradshaw the fuck out" and not have a grin on your face by the end of the sentence.

Wasn't that whole thing kinda debunked? Or at least it didn't go down quite like that?

 

As far as I know, not really. Someone said, I don't remember who, that he wasn't surprised very much when that happened, that Joey was a tough little Italian while Bradshaw was just a big bully who would only mess with weak people and take advantage of guys inside the ring while they're giving him their bodies, but would never ever mess with tough guys. Yeah, as much as I found Style's political stuff repulsive, I admit punching Bradshaw made him love him for ever at least for one thing.

[Johnny Sorrow]

but still, just tell me you can say the words "Joey Styles knocked Bradshaw the fuck out" and not have a grin on your face by the end of the sentence.

Wasn't that whole thing kinda debunked? Or at least it didn't go down quite like that?

 

As far as I know, not really. Someone said, I don't remember who, that he wasn't surprised very much when that happened, that Joey was a tough little Italian while Bradshaw was just a big bully who would only mess with weak people and take advantage of guys inside the ring while they're giving him their bodies, but would never ever mess with tough guys. Yeah, as much as I found Style's political stuff repulsive, I admit punching Bradshaw made him love him for ever at least for one thing.

 

Oh, the "Styles stood up for himself and got into it with Bradshaw" part is true. I'm just pretty sure the "Joey Styles kO'D Bradshaw w/ one punch" part is ...ahem...."exaggerated".

[Jingus]

I don't know if Joey just straight-up Butterbeaned the man, but by all accounts he knocked Layfield down on his ass and at least ended the fight right then and there. I just prefer to cling to my McFly/Biff version of events, because it's much funnier.

 

 

Bradshaw was just a big bully who would only mess with weak people and take advantage of guys inside the ring while they're giving him their bodies, but would never ever mess with tough guys.

Yeah. I still vividly remember a match where Bradshaw just beat the everliving shit out of poor D. Harry Smith, the sort of low-on-the-totem-pole guy who the office would frown upon if he stiffed JBL back. It went way beyond any possible excuses of working snug or whatever and into outright abuse. I've seen him do that a few times; why didn't he ever become more of a publicly-derided bully in the IWC, like Bob Holly did? Was it just that Tough Enough made such a huge deal out of that one Holly beatdown, but all of Bradshaw's liberties are taken in random little TV matches where nobody is really paying attention?

[El-P]

I've seen him do that a few times; why didn't he ever become more of a publicly-derided bully in the IWC, like Bob Holly did? Was it just that Tough Enough made such a huge deal out of that one Holly beatdown, but all of Bradshaw's liberties are taken in random little TV matches where nobody is really paying attention?

I think because at some point, it became fashionable to like Bradshaw. People on the IWC went crazy for his heel personna and all of a sudden Bradshaw was an Internet darling, which I never understood. And that comes from a guy who enjoyed Bradshaw in the ring since the mid 90's and thought he was rather underrated. But Bradshaw got a main event push for one reason only, he was a stooge to the office. The great matches with Eddie are Guerrero's masterpieces. Never got this late Bradshaw love, while it was obvious at this point that this guy : was a mediocre worker; never drew shit; got a push because he kissed the office's collective ass for years; bombed as a champ; was a big unprofessionnal bully.

Of course you can argue that Vader was a big bully too, and you'd be right.

[kjh]

At least in retirement Leyfield is giving back to the local community where he now lives: http://bermudasun.bm/main.asp?SectionID=8&...ArticleID=56390

[khawk20]

Oh, the "Styles stood up for himself and got into it with Bradshaw" part is true. I'm just pretty sure the "Joey Styles kO'D Bradshaw w/ one punch" part is ...ahem...."exaggerated".

Wrong! Check the video evidence:

 

 

 

See???

[Sean Liska]

The funny thing is I'm sure that punching JBL elevated Joey in Vince's eyes.

[Johnny Sorrow]

I've seen him do that a few times; why didn't he ever become more of a publicly-derided bully in the IWC, like Bob Holly did? Was it just that Tough Enough made such a huge deal out of that one Holly beatdown, but all of Bradshaw's liberties are taken in random little TV matches where nobody is really paying attention?

I think because at some point, it became fashionable to like Bradshaw. People on the IWC went crazy for his heel personna and all of a sudden Bradshaw was an Internet darling, which I never understood. And that comes from a guy who enjoyed Bradshaw in the ring since the mid 90's and thought he was rather underrated. But Bradshaw got a main event push for one reason only, he was a stooge to the office. The great matches with Eddie are Guerrero's masterpieces. Never got this late Bradshaw love, while it was obvious at this point that this guy : was a mediocre worker; never drew shit; ; bombed as a champ; was a big unprofessionnal bully.

 

 

I thought you stopped watching in 1999.

 

JBL was a blast. He was so great at his gimmick, he was a perfectly fine worker, was an awesome commentator. Seriously, you go back and listen to him on SD with Cole and you'll hear the funniest, and just best commentary in recent years. He was a modern day Jesse, as he didn't just cheer the heels and boo the faces. He totally put over London and Kendrick for example. He was their cheerleader WHILE not liking them being all "fan friendly". When he was bashing Miz and MVP, both guys were heels. And as MVP got better, he got behind him..originally because "MVP took him out for an expensive dinner" or some shit like that that was great.

 

"got a push because he kissed the office's collective ass for years"

 

is just another way of saying "worked his ass off for years doing whatever he was asked to do while creating relationships that resulted in being given a chance to be a headliner". Add in "loyal employee during the dark days of WCW kicking our ass". I see no problem with any of that in a shitty cut throat business like Pro Wrestling. Or pretty much any job.

 

"never drew shit"

That wasn't the point. JBL wasn't supposed to draw. The draw was supposed to be babyfaces trying and trying to beat this guy for the belt. And wasn't it Cena who finally did? Ushering in the next big thing?

[Mad Dog]

Of course you can argue that Vader was a big bully too, and you'd be right.

I disagree with that assessment of Vader. A lot of the interviews I've seen where people talk about Vader is that he just worked a certain way and that was beating the hell out of you in the ring. Of course, you could beat the shit out of Vader in return and there would be no issues. He was unlike JBL in the sense that he was a big softie backstage. He wasn't out to take liberties on guys and he wasn't out to hurt anyone. When he broke that jobbers back he went backstage and cried about it. He wasn't backstage fucking with guys constantly like JBL.

 

I also think people like blowing Bob Holly's "bullying" way out of proportion. He never seemed to be in the JBL category of bullying.

 

To keep this on topic. JBL was probably the best color commentator the WWE has had in 20 years.

[rzombie1988]

You should rewatch Tough Enough if you think Holly's bullying is out of proportion.

[Mad Dog]

Considering people were rooting for him to lose his arm a couple of years ago, yes, it's blown out of proportion.

[rzombie1988]

Considering people were rooting for him to lose his arm a couple of years ago, yes, it's blown out of proportion.

I never even once read that and I was on alot of boards at that time. You are always going to have a few fans like that though, and that goes for anything. Still doesn't change the fact that Holly was a huge douche and he ended up paying for it with Brock.

[Mad Dog]

I read it several times when it happened and it was gross. I'm just being honest here, the Tough Enough thing never bothered me that much. I've seen guys stiff each other like that numerous times and I still think someone put him up to that. And even if they didn't, shit happens. Holly really is guilty of stiffing guys in the ring and beating up Dupree for a little vigilante justice. Compared to guys like Dynamite Kid or JBL, I really think his transgressions are pretty small time.

[El-P]

I thought you stopped watching in 1999.

I thought you stopped trying to be a smart alec.

 

I stopped watched WWF programming in 1999, only watched a few big matches up intul 2001 Then in the mid 00's, mostly because of the GWE poll, I revisited the post 00 era, watched most big matches there was to watch. I thought I shouldn't have to explain it.

[El-P]

Of course you can argue that Vader was a big bully too, and you'd be right.

I disagree with that assessment of Vader. A lot of the interviews I've seen where people talk about Vader is that he just worked a certain way and that was beating the hell out of you in the ring. Of course, you could beat the shit out of Vader in return and there would be no issues. He was unlike JBL in the sense that he was a big softie backstage. He wasn't out to take liberties on guys and he wasn't out to hurt anyone. When he broke that jobbers back he went backstage and cried about it. He wasn't backstage fucking with guys constantly like JBL.

I don 't know, most interviews I've heard categorize Vader as somewhat of a bully in the ring, taking advantage of people he could beat up. Of course that doesn't mean he wanted to injure people. Agreed about being a softie backstage though, the same people said Vader was a sensitive teddy bear. So yeah, Vader just isn't in the same category as JBL, who was a plain asshole from all acounts. Plus he was a great worker, while JBL, well, not very good.

[El-P]

is just another way of saying "worked his ass off for years doing whatever he was asked to do while creating relationships that resulted in being given a chance to be a headliner".

That's laughable. How many guys worked their ass off during years and never got any chance at being headliners ? Please.

 

Add in "loyal employee during the dark days of WCW kicking our ass".

It's not like Bradshaw had any value at all to WCW. Justin Hawk, Blackjack Bradhsaw... yeah, like Bischoff would throw big money at an aging stiff cowboy guy who was a mediocre worker low on the undercard.

 

Bradshaw was an office stooge, that's why he finally got a push. Just accept it. Won't change anything to the work of him you enjoy. I enjoyed DDP's push in 96/97 a lot and I know why he finally got it (that said, he was a much better worker than Bradshaw and got himself over as hell, while Bradshaw's matches were getting crickets when he got pushed).

[Loss]

Holy polemic!

[El-P]

Not really. I know some people loved the Bradshaw push in the mid00's. I enjoyed Bradshaw back in 97/98. Then got bored because a third rate Nise Hansen only goes so far. Then watched back his "big push" matches, saw that the guy was worse than 7/8 years before, that his gimmick worked wonders (sarcasm) on the WWE audience, that he took part in two great matches thanks to Eddie Guerrero. Essentially, Bradsaw is to the WWE in the 00's what Johnny Ace was to AJ in the 90's. Except Ace at one point brought more to the table than Bradshaw ever did (and I don't like Ace).

Now, as far as his commentary years, I'm filling a blank, not familiar with it. He may have been great at this, I can't tell.